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Red Bull made "minor breach" of budget cap in 2021 [split] [Update: RBR accepts $7m fine and 10% reduction in wind-tunnel and CFD time]


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#1 Marklar

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:11

apparently RB & AM breeched it for 2021, one very significantly. FIA will announce it next week and is said to be worried to announce it due to the uproar it will cause (Merc is angry for obvious reasons, Ferrari because breaching 2021 helps the 2022 car). Only a breech of over 5 million is said to inflict a bigger penalty (points deduction, cutting money from next years cap) but there are rumours that RB is already over it this year too

https://www.auto-mot...bull-im-visier/

I repeat what I said when it was introduced: only DSQs in both championships will help, otherwise half of them will breech it

Edited by Marklar, 30 September 2022 - 06:14.


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#2 GentlemanDriver091

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:25

apparently RB & AM breeched it for 2021, one very significantly. FIA will announce it next week and is said to be worried to announce it due to the uproar it will cause (Merc is angry for obvious reasons, Ferrari because breaching 2021 helps the 2022 car). Only a breech of over 5 million is said to inflict a bigger penalty (points deduction, cutting money from next years cap) but there are rumours that RB is already over it this year too

https://www.auto-mot...bull-im-visier/

I repeat what I said when it was introduced: only DSQs in both championships will help, otherwise half of them will breech it

Cutting money from next years cap, would be the best punishment in my opinion.

#3 Bleu

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:29

It's too late if last year's actual expenses are known only now.



#4 Marklar

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:43

Cutting money from next years cap, would be the best punishment in my opinion.

then you do it every year and at some point after 5 championships in 2026 you are left with 20 million and you breach that again?

#5 jpm2019

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:46

then you do it every year and at some point after 5 championships in 2026 you are left with 20 million and you breach that again?

 

Every euro you overspend x5 deduction. That is serious money. After 10 milion overspend also points deduction 



#6 Shade

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:48

This could easily explain why RB decided to not introduce their new lighter chassis.

 

Seems sus



#7 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 06:49

The punishment must be so severe that the mere thought of it makes teams shiver. This is the FIA, and obviously they won’t do that, calling into question the entire point.

If severe, it’s constructors DQ or nothing. Anything else would just encourage teams to do it.

#8 Astandahl

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:15

Predictable considering the amount of upgrades they brought last year and this year.



#9 Mechanic44

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:19

Predictable considering the amount of upgrades they brought last year and this year.


I remember they brought about 5 different diffusers with like shark teeth edges and everyone questioned the upgrades then. More followed after that.

Makes 2021 ending even more laughable

#10 Kao18

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:19

 

Mercedes and Ferrari think this is questionable. According to their calculations, Red Bull not only exceeded the limit in 2021, but also this season.

 

 

:lol:  why am I not surprised



#11 Ali623

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:20

I agree, fines and warnings won't cut it, if that's all they hand out then the budget cap solution will be finished. DSQ both teams from the WCC and distribute their 'winnings' amongst the other teams equally + give the both a restricted budget for at least next season. The only way this budget cap was going to be successful is if the FIA throw the kitchen sink at the first team(s) to break it.



#12 TradeMark

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:25

So far nothing is confirmed, and the rumours only say that they broke it, if that's in the 5% region, there won't be serious consequences as even the FIA rules say that. If it's more than 5%, it's going to create some more drama. It says then more severe penalties might come such as deducting constructors points, but even taking 250 points from RBR won't drop them any place in the constructors.

#13 Marklar

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:25

I remember they brought about 5 different diffusers with like shark teeth edges and everyone questioned the upgrades then. More followed after that.

Makes 2021 ending even more laughable

no no, it was cheap because of Newey's pen and paper :p

#14 SCUDmissile

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:26

If FIA and FOM care about this budget cap then they should punish the teams hard.

Otherwise it's finished and all teams will just spend extra and take fines.

#15 Laster

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:32

Oh yeah this won’t make the events of Abu Dhabi all the worse.

And how on earth did Aston Martin breach it too and still end up a million miles away, what’s Stroll snr doing to that team?

Edited by Laster, 30 September 2022 - 07:32.


#16 Astandahl

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:32

Defense force already in action.



#17 jpm2019

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:39

So I assume every team is trying to spent the limit. Then in race before the last one your car is crashed by another driver (I can think of one or two examples in 2021 :rotfl: ) and totally wrecked. You need to withdraw the last race, or go over the cap. How does this work? How is this good for F1? 

 

Also reminder that not increasing the cap was the reason why teams where not willing to do more sprintraces in 2021. 



#18 Mechanic44

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:41

So I assume every team is trying to spent the limit. Then in race before the last one your car is crashed by another driver (I can think of one or two examples in 2021 :rotfl: ) and totally wrecked. You need to withdraw the last race, or go over the cap. How does this work? How is this good for F1?

Also reminder that not increasing the cap was the reason why teams where not willing to do more sprintraces in 2021.


Monza Max crashing into Lewis? Agreed 100%

#19 Mechanic44

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:41

no no, it was cheap because of Newey's pen and paper :p


Haha did chuckle at this

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#20 jpm2019

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:41


Otherwise it's finished and all teams will just spend extra and take fines.

 

Kinda like taking a new ICU every race? 



#21 andyscoot

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:48

The only way I can see it being a deterrent is that you restrict their spending by a certain multiplier the following year. The only thing RB care about is getting their drivers to #1 - it's worth more money to them than any WCC prize money - and no punishment will ever go after the drivers, which is right imo.

 

This on the proviso that these rumours have a shred of truth in the first place obviously.



#22 AnR

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:49

Monza Max crashing into Lewis? Agreed 100%

 

defense forces working : ) sum Silverstone and Hungary and see what that costs



#23 Mechanic44

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 07:57

defense forces working : ) sum Silverstone and Hungary and see what that costs


I think those forces are only needed for the team who actually are in question of going over the budget cap 😋

#24 AnR

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:03

I think those forces are only needed for the team who actually are in question of going over the budget cap

 

by a rumour..perhaps caused by another team?

 

on a serious note, wouldn't it be better to set a punishment coupled to the defense ahead to make it more restrainable?


Edited by AnR, 30 September 2022 - 08:03.


#25 thefinalapex

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:04

5% of the budget is 7,5 million. Anything beneath that is a minor infraction says Andrew Benson.



#26 andyscoot

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:12

5% of the budget is 7,5 million. Anything beneath that is a minor infraction says Andrew Benson.

 

So the defacto budget is actually 7.5 million higher than the "cap"?



#27 Stephane

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:15

If there's no sanction there's no cap at all

#28 RedRabbit

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:15

So the defacto budget is actually 7.5 million higher than the "cap"?


Still an infraction though.

Maybe teams spending over budget should pay the equivalent of the overspend into a pool that's distributed to the bottom 3 teams.

#29 JimmyClark

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:16

I guess it's like the UK speed limit, which has a 10% leniency. So 77mph is fine.

I can't say I agree with that kind of elasticity in the rules, especially with something as defined as finance.

Let's see what's announced next week.

#30 MJB5990

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:17

I guess it's like the UK speed limit, which has a 10% leniency. So 77mph is fine.

I can't say I agree with that kind of elasticity in the rules, especially with something as defined as finance.

Let's see what's announced next week.

 

That can be down to dodgy speedometers. This is maths. 

 

In an age where parts costing little-to-nothing can fail and cause DNF's that affect championship results and prize money, spending millions over an allowance seems entirely unfair. If Red Bull have gone over for 2021 and this has impacted their 2022 car aswell, I don't see an alternative but to DSQ them from the WCC in both years. This is an important precedent for the FIA to set, otherwise if it is just a fine, all the big teams will weigh up whether the punishment is worth it and this budget cap will be completely pointless.


Edited by MJB5990, 30 September 2022 - 08:20.


#31 Marklar

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:23

If they have a leniency of 7 million they need new accountants. I get calculation errors of a few 100k, but you cant tell me that you accidentally reach several millions by accident. The whole fuss about the crashes is irrelevant, they exagerate costs here by including development and personal costs, but those are not lost, the actual material costs of a crash will be just several 100k. And you should really account for a few of them when making the plan.

Edited by Marklar, 30 September 2022 - 08:23.


#32 AllanL

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:27

Could this be the real reason the Porsche deal fell apart? Or have they just been lucky - involvement with such allegedly improper behaviour would not be a good look. 



#33 thefinalapex

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:30

https://twitter.com/...760632434987008

 

Dutch Journo Erik van haren that is always very close to RB/Verstappen says that RB was beneath the 5% allowance margin last season.



#34 pdac

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:31

apparently RB & AM breeched it for 2021, one very significantly. FIA will announce it next week and is said to be worried to announce it due to the uproar it will cause (Merc is angry for obvious reasons, Ferrari because breaching 2021 helps the 2022 car). Only a breech of over 5 million is said to inflict a bigger penalty (points deduction, cutting money from next years cap) but there are rumours that RB is already over it this year too

https://www.auto-mot...bull-im-visier/

I repeat what I said when it was introduced: only DSQs in both championships will help, otherwise half of them will breech it

 

I'm sure they are worried because they wanted all teams to adhere to the cap and so they would not have to impose penalties. Now they are in a dilemma because they still don't want to impose penalties, but they have to show they are doing something (otherwise, next year, everyone who can will be spending like crazy). It would have been fine if it weren't RB, but now they have to act against F1's current golden team and (more importantly) golden driver.



#35 Yoshi

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:34

According to their caluclation (Ferrari and Merc)  :eek:  - stopped reading after that - lets see what they will come up next week.



#36 Astandahl

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:41

So at this point every team will breach the budget cap. 5% more is very significant and apparently you only get a small fine.



#37 Clatter

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:45

So it takes nearly a year to audit the teams and decide if a breach has occurred, and even then they have no idea what sort of punishment to award. They can't do anything now to affect the results of the previous season, and any of the big teams would probably be happy to take a fine in return for performance. Once again the FIA show their gift of not thinking things through. I do hope they come up with a sensible solution, that makes staying within the cap the only way a team can succeed.

#38 Heyli

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:46

So at this point every team will breach the budget cap. 5% more is very significant and apparently you only get a small fine.

This was already known though, no? Only minor punishment for the first 5%.



#39 Beri

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:46

Oh well, this thread is going to be nice.



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#40 RPM40

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 08:53

It seems very weird that the teams could over spend, but not have their results invalidated if they are found to do so.

They should have quite significant retroactive powers to do so as well, so if it’s found out a year later it could be effective.

There doesn’t seem to be any incentive to follow it otherwise.

#41 Ali623

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:01

It sounds like most, if not all, big teams will be breaching the budget cap this season based on what team bosses were saying several months ago. 

 

 

Binotto - “In the regulations, there is a threshold, which is 5%,” says Ferrari boss Mattia Binotto. “If you do not exceed the 5%, on the top of what's the budget cap threshold, it will be considered a minor breach.

 
“And what's a minor breach in case of force majeure? What will the stewards and the FIA decide on that, in terms of penalties? No idea.
 
“But I don't think there is any way for us – and for many teams – simply to stay within.
 
“And even laying-off people, I don't think that's a good and right choice. It's already summertime. By the time you organise it, and you do it, the benefit it can have is not sufficient to cope with the excess of prices and costs we've got.”

 

 

Horner “I think certainly all the major teams are going to breach that 140 count this year,” he says. “As Mattia has pointed out, there's a 5% threshold for a minor breach. What is the penalty for a minor breach?

 
“And what we don't want to do is end up playing a game of chicken. As to say, does he go to 4.9% over? Do we go to 4.7% over? And that would be [worth] one upgrade that could be the differentiating factor of this world championship.”

 

 

Basically, like many things the FIA does, this is not particularly well thought out. Just the beginning with these potential 2021 breaches, it's only going to get messier I suspect.



#42 RPM40

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:04

It sounds like most, if not all, big teams will be breaching the budget cap this season based on what team bosses were saying several months ago.




Basically, like many things the FIA does, this is not particularly well thought out. Just the beginning with these potential 2021 breaches, it's only going to get messier I suspect.


If they allow 5% then the teams will all just spend 4.something percent over. Just like they all push the engineering tolerances.

The cap should be what the cap is, but if they allow 5% without significant penalty then they may as well just set that cap at that mark.

#43 TradeMark

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:13

This was already known though, no? Only minor punishment for the first 5%.

Yeah exactly. I was expecting all the bigger teams to use that 5% as it was kind of announced there wouldn't be serious consequences for that

#44 macjim

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:33

apparently RB & AM breeched it for 2021, one very significantly. FIA will announce it next week and is said to be worried to announce it due to the uproar it will cause (Merc is angry for obvious reasons, Ferrari because breaching 2021 helps the 2022 car). Only a breech of over 5 million is said to inflict a bigger penalty (points deduction, cutting money from next years cap) but there are rumours that RB is already over it this year too

https://www.auto-mot...bull-im-visier/

I repeat what I said when it was introduced: only DSQs in both championships will help, otherwise half of them will breech it

 

 

Oooppsssiee. I'm sure the other teams will be very understanding - NOT.

 

What's the point of the budget cap, if it's not to stop over the top spending.

 

Will FIA/FOM have the clackers to give an effective punishment.

 

It can't be monetary, I've over spent by $30 Million, ok here's a $5 Million fine.....................then they'd all do it.

 

Has to be a suitable sporting penalty


Edited by macjim, 30 September 2022 - 09:33.


#45 JimmyClark

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:37

Aston Martin have obviously premeditated the "secret deal" with the FIA to lose performance for a year.

#46 Timorous

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:49

Exceeding the budget cap is effectively doping for machinery so DQ from 2021 for the WCC and WDC. Refund the prize money they received and a fine of 10X the overspend to come out of the 2023 budget. Don't see any other choice or it makes the budget cap a pointless endeavour.



#47 Roadhouse

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 09:58

I think the team personnel should be whipped for every Dollar they exceeded the budget cap with.



#48 Sash1

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 10:09

Any excess should be deducted from next year's cap. If that only is found out in september, tough luck, no more updates, run the engine conservative, whatever. And the treshold, should be amount X. Not X+5%. 



#49 lewislorenzo

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 10:16

I’m sure the punishment will be minor

#50 player1s

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Posted 30 September 2022 - 10:29

According to their caluclation (Ferrari and Merc)  :eek:  - stopped reading after that - lets see what they will come up next week.

I can see this becoming a pot and kettle situation.