62 replies to this topic

[RasmVest]

This is only for track racing it seems?

 

No. WRC and other rally championships as well as the Dakar Rally are all included. Let me know if you think I have missed any prestigious non-track championships I should add.

 

Alonso should be in the top 3 ahead of Vettel, imho.

 

I can't just move driver X ahead of driver Y. Tell me how you would adjust the points system and maybe Alonso will be able to move ahead of Vettel. With the current points system Vettel's achievements are greater than Alonso's...

[RasmVest]

I have updated the points system with a boost to the multiplier of the WRC, Indycar (since AAA era), NASCAR and WEC/World Sportscars.

 

It changes the following at the top of the rankings.

 

Jacky Ickx: 5 -> 4 (moves ahead of Vettel)

A.J. Foyt: 14 -> 8

Mario Andretti: 11 -> 9

Scott Dixon: 24 -> 17

Al Unser: 25 -> 22

 

The top WRC drivers now:

 

Sébastien Loeb 28

Sébastien Ogier 55

Carlos Sainz 61

Juha Kankkunen 86

Petter Solberg 150

Tommi Mäkinen 153

Markku Alén 155

Colin McRae 174

Hannu Mikkola 198

Marcus Grönholm 199

 

The top NASCAR drivers:

 

Richard Petty 26

Dale Earnhardt Sr. 51

Jimmie Johnson 68

Jeff Gordon 92

Bobby Allison 111

Darrell Waltrip 119

Cale Yarborough 122

Mark Martin 137

Tony Stewart 142

Lee Petty 162

 

For reference the lowest placed F1-champion is James Hunt at 173.

 

Note these changes haven't been done in the document linked in the OP. I probably won't update that link until the project is finished...

 

Anyway...

 

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I also tried to experiment with a Peak Ranking as I previously mentioned I would. The only problem is the impact on the size and speed of the document 

 

What I've done is quite simple. I've taken the highest scoring three-year period for every driver. Eg. for Jim Clark that's 1963-1965. For Ayrton Senna it's 1989-1991.

 

Six drivers from the overall top 20 drops outside the top 20 in the Peak Ranking with Scott Dixon dropping all the way from 17th to 77th.

 

Here's a look at the outcome (with the career-long ranking in parenthesis for comparison)

 

1. Juan Manuel Fangio (6)

2. Jim Clark (16)

3. Graham Hill (7)

4. Michael Schumacher (1)

5. Sebastian Vettel (5)

6. Lewis Hamilton (2)

7. Alain Prost (3)

=. Ayrton Senna (11)

9. Jackie Stewart (15)

10. Niki Lauda (20)

11. Emerson Fittipaldi (13)

12. Alberto Ascari (38)

13. Stirling Moss (12)

14. Jack Brabham (14)

15. Mika Häkkinen (41)

16. Tazio Nuvolari (21)

17. Fernando Alonso (10)

18. Denny Hulme (29)

19. Rudolf Caracciola (24)

20. Nico Rosberg (53)

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28. Nelson Piquet (19)

29. Jacky Ickx (4)

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53. Mario Andretti (9)

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60. A.J. Foyt (8)

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66. Tom Kristensen (18)

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77. Scott Dixon (17)

 

Obviously this looks really good with Fangio and Clark at the top, but on the contrary Andretti, Foyt, Kristensen and Dixon are probably way too low in this ranking compared to where you would think they should be on an all-time ranking.

 

To be fair I prefer the ranking that takes the drivers complete career into account as long as you keep in mind why some drivers (Clark, Senna, Villeneuve etc.) are placed lower than one would expect because of their lives being taken too early.

 

The two rankings supplement each other though.

 

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On another note I have also added the Production WRC category and the Junior WRC.

 

I can't decide whether to add more rally championships (Asia-Pacific, Middle-East, NACAM, RallyAmerica). Are they prestigious enough to award some small points for the champions?

 

I also can't decide if something like ARCA should award small points to the champions?

 

And should I include short track dirt racing like the World of Outlaws and USAC Silver Crown?

 

Finally I've also posted a thread in the Nostalgia Forums for those of you wanting to help with missing information on some of the drivers.

Edited by RasmVest, 11 October 2022 - 19:14.

[AustinF1]

No. WRC and other rally championships as well as the Dakar Rally are all included. Let me know if you think I have missed any prestigious non-track championships I should add.

 

 

I can't just move driver X ahead of driver Y. Tell me how you would adjust the points system and maybe Alonso will be able to move ahead of Vettel. With the current points system Vettel's achievements are greater than Alonso's...

That's why rankings that place achievement ahead of abilities and body of work will only tell you who has the most titles and not indicate who is the best. And that's fine. If you're just looking at achievements, then Vettel should probably be ahead of Alonso. If we're looking at everything, then Alonso is ahead of Vettel imho.

 

Also, where do you have Seb Loeb?  ETA: Never mind. #28, right?

Edited by AustinF1, 11 October 2022 - 19:21.

[RasmVest]

That's why rankings that place achievement ahead of abilities and body of work will only tell you who has the most titles and not indicate who is the best. And that's fine. If you're just looking at achievements, then Vettel should probably be ahead of Alonso. If we're looking at everything, then Alonso is ahead of Vettel imho.

 

Also, where do you have Seb Loeb?  ETA: Never mind. #28, right?

 

Loeb is #28 indeed.

 

I totally agree with your point. This project is about achievements and not ability as I think that's impossible to rank the same way. F1metrics have done an impressive job in that regard, but that's only for F1. I can't imagine the insane amount of work needed to make an all-time racing driver ranking based on ability. Where do you even begin? Achievements are very much measurable on the contrary.

[AustinF1]

Yep. I do think Loeb and some other WRC boys should be higher up there, esp given the absolute utter dominance by the Sebs - Loeb and Ogier. 8 straight championships for Loeb and 8 of 9 for Ogier.

[MassaFan14]

This is superb, thank you

[Cornholio]

Really enjoyed poring through all of this   appreciate all the work that's gone into it!

 

On the WRC question, While the various racing championships I'd say it's possible to settle on sensible weightings for all of them (subjective as it'll always be), I do think for WRC it's a bit futile given how different the disciplines are, and with such minimal crossover (or where there has been crossover, the driver switching disciplines naturally tends to be less competitive than in his usual sport, whether Loeb racing, Kimi rallying, etc.)

 

For instance someone could make the argument that rally drivers are in fact the most skilled drivers on the planet given the variety of surfaces, lack of margin of error, etc. But someone else might say rallying is "just" about driving quick and error-free, with racecraft not coming into it. Personally I don't think there can ever be a right answer, comparing say Loeb and Schumacher would be like comparing e.g. Messi and Tom Brady, you can't really say anything other than they each reached the top of their chosen craft but they are fundamentally different sports despite some common features.

 

To be honest, if rallying is to be included, I'd almost say that the WRC and F1 WDC almost need to be given equal billing (with other rallying categories/championships/events weighted appropriately below it), given that both represent the relative pinnacles of their respective disciplines.

 

(I agree with motorcycle riders not being included for pretty much the same reasons)

 

I guess one rebuttal to the above is that you could say the same to at least some degree about some racing championships, for instance NASCAR is relatively isolated/specialised compared to many other categories. I'd just reckon there's been just about enough reasonably successful crossovers between it and both IndyCar and sportscars to consider it part of the same ecosystem still. Likewise with how early 20th century racing was vastly different to the modern day, at least there's been a continuous turnover of competitors through the years with a gradual change in the nature of it over that time (I'm pretty sure someone once did a "get from a current F1 driver to Paris-Rouen competitor in X number of steps" once)

[RasmVest]

Thank you for a great input, Cornholio. I'm glad you enjoyed it!

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread it's not really a ranking of absolute ability, where I agree WRC drivers are probably some of the best in the world given the circumstances.

 

It's a ranking of achievements, prestige, decoration, stature or 'the size of the trophy cabinet' as someone phrased it. In that regard I don't think WRC should be weighted much higher than it does with the changes made. At least today I don't think WRC awards that much more prestige to the title winner than eg. Indycar. The WRC is also a championship with a much shorter history since it only started in the 1970s whereas the Indycar title in various versions goes all the way back to 1905.

 

I'm not going to exclude rally (or NASCAR for that matter), because there has been enough of an overlap through history. Also it would be completely off to have Sébastien Loeb ranked eg. 600th because only his LM24, WTCC and GT results counts.... 

Edited by RasmVest, 16 October 2022 - 10:46.

[jonpollak]

Only include races from March-June 1995, exclude Canadians, boost CART by 5000%.

Gosh that was easy. !!!!!
All hail Gordon the GOAT !!!
Jp

[RedRabbit]

That's why rankings that place achievement ahead of abilities and body of work will only tell you who has the most titles and not indicate who is the best. And that's fine. If you're just looking at achievements, then Vettel should probably be ahead of Alonso. If we're looking at everything, then Alonso is ahead of Vettel imho.

Also, where do you have Seb Loeb? ETA: Never mind. #28, right?

I saw someone post a mathematical model on F1 Technical that accounted quite a number of variables to determine which F1 driver had actually performed the best each year since 1950.

Alonso came out on top in 12 seasons.

[AustinF1]

I saw someone post a mathematical model on F1 Technical that accounted quite a number of variables to determine which F1 driver had actually performed the best each year since 1950.

Alonso came out on top in 12 seasons.

That's amazing.

[Makingtime]

A number of years ago, I saw a ranking based on only F1 that used percentages with categories such as fastest lap per race, pole positions, results per race each year, and some other categories (results against tea mates? ) that did not involve a length of time that placed Clark slightly ahead of Fangio, then Micheal Schumacher.

 

Andretti, Ascari  Senna, and Moss, were close to the top.

 

Neither Vettel nor Hamilton were on the list as this was before their time

[RasmVest]

Hi everyone

 

It's been a few months. Maybe you're wondering what happened to this project. Maybe you've forgotten all about it. Maybe you didn't see this thread before now.

 

Anyways, I'm here to tell you that it's finally been published online. It will be updated weekly on Twitter right here, where I'll also post different content. I'm currently posting updates after the Daytona 24 hours.

 

I hope some of you will find it interesting to follow along.

Feedback is still very much appreciated as nothing is set in stone.