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Wet weather running and current FIA risk averse attitude towards rain


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#1 Ev0d3vil

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 04:29

Just thought this should have a separate topic, what’s with the FIA’s risk adverse attitude towards rain nowadays? During FP3 in Singapore the SC had to be out to test the circuit for the F1 cars.  By the time the session was running, it was too dry for the extreme wet tyres, are the extreme wets still that bad? We have one of the safest cars in F1 but most of the time when a shower comes they delay the start and by the time it gets up and running the wet tyres are not usually used as it’s too dry and within 20 laps or so we could be running slicks.



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#2 ARTGP

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 04:33

One would think that 18" wet tires would be the most road relevant thing Pirelli could design. As it would turn out....it's the worst tire in the range. 



#3 YamahaV10

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 04:51

I think F1 should discontinue the wet tire. Make the intermediate tire of today the wet tire and make an even less agressive tire as the intermediate.

On days where today's wet tire is required , visibility is nearly unacceptable. (to answer the OP's question , i think it's all about visibility. It's dangerous when drivers can't see where there going) So what's the point of it.

If we had a tire in between the intermediate and slick , it would have been used on every wet race this year. And it would make strategy more competitive

Edited by YamahaV10, 03 October 2022 - 04:56.


#4 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:14

The wet tire is used to get the car from the truck to the pitbox. They will never run in full wet conditions again.

 

The start could have been on the regular time and we would have had the wet-inter crossover after about 30 minutes I reckon. When the pitlane opened half an hour past the original race start time, drivers were already preferring the inter.

 

We had the same in Monaco this year.



#5 ExFlagMan

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:32

I think F1 should discontinue the wet tire. Make the intermediate tire of today the wet tire and make an even less agressive tire as the intermediate.

On days where today's wet tire is required , visibility is nearly unacceptable. (to answer the OP's question , i think it's all about visibility. It's dangerous when drivers can't see where there going) So what's the point of it.

If we had a tire in between the intermediate and slick , it would have been used on every wet race this year. And it would make strategy more competitive

 

I wonder why the tyre companies have not come up with such a concept ?

 

Maybe some genius on here could come up with a design that would be suitable.



#6 ExFlagMan

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:37

The wet tire is used to get the car from the truck to the pitbox. They will never run in full wet conditions again.

 

The start could have been on the regular time and we would have had the wet-inter crossover after about 30 minutes I reckon. When the pitlane opened half an hour past the original race start time, drivers were already preferring the inter.

 

We had the same in Monaco this year.

 

Does that 30m mins include the period while they clean up the debris from the first start



#7 jjcale

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:39

More odd was the delay in allowing DRS during the race ..... All runners were on drys for a little while longer than I would have expected for Race Control to allow DRS.

 

Does Race Control have a duty of care to F1 drivers to allow them to use DRS only when it is safe to do so?   

 

 

F1 needs a new insurance policy ....  



#8 Ruusperi

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:49



(to answer the OP's question , i think it's all about visibility. It's dangerous when drivers can't see where there going) So what's the point of it.


Well, at the start of Monaco GP visibility was like this for Norris.

Norris-Monaco-2022.jpg

 

And for Gasly at Imola start:

gasly-imola-2022.jpg

 

Plus we have had qualifyings this year (Montreal, Silverstone) that were run on full wets. So it's rather inconsistent what the principle for full wet racing is is. Depends on the mindset of the race director. Just like whether to use VSC or SC, there's no consistency. However, I agree the pussification of racing on full wets has gotten worse. It started with Charlie, who probably got traumatized from Spa 1998 pileup.



#9 Muppetmad

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:55

There was torrential rain until :45. If the start procedure had been initiated as originally planned, drivers would have binned it on their way to the grid due to aquaplaning. Also, if the torrential rain hadn't stopped at :45, the three hour window would have begun at :00 while we waited to go racing, making race control look like fools for doing nothing. In very challenging circumstances, race control made the right decision yesterday.


Edited by Muppetmad, 03 October 2022 - 08:56.


#10 Risil

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:58

However, I agree the pussification of racing on full wets has gotten worse. It started with Charlie, who probably got traumatized from Spa 1998 pileup.

 

Probably not, Spa 1998 started in intermediate conditions. It was DC running over a drain(?) while rejoining the track that caused the accident.
 



#11 Augurk

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 08:58

Well, at the start of Monaco GP visibility was like this for Norris.

Norris-Monaco-2022.jpg

 

And for Gasly at Imola start:

gasly-imola-2022.jpg

 

Plus we have had qualifyings this year (Montreal, Silverstone) that were run on full wets. So it's rather inconsistent what the principle for full wet racing is is. Depends on the mindset of the race director. Just like whether to use VSC or SC, there's no consistency. However, I agree the pussification of racing on full wets has gotten worse. It started with Charlie, who probably got traumatized from Spa 1998 pileup.

Camera's will never show exactly how visibility is for the human eyes, unfortunately.



#12 Sterzo

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:02

Probably not, Spa 1998 started in intermediate conditions. It was DC running over a drain(?) while rejoining the track that caused the accident.
 

Isn't that magnificent irony?



#13 RedRabbit

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:17

I think the number of amateur errors from almost all the drivers in Singapore showed that the FIA are actually justified.

The whole of the new generation have little to no experience in proper wet conditions.

#14 Augurk

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:19

I think the number of amateur errors from almost all the drivers in Singapore showed that the FIA are actually justified.

The whole of the new generation have little to no experience in proper wet conditions.

Chicken... egg....



#15 Sterzo

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:25

As so often, we need to go to the root of the problem. It's not a problem that the FIA is risk-averse. They should be averse to death and injury. Nor is there a trade-off between safety and racing. You don't get good racing when cars are piled into the wall.

 

If we want racing in the rain, we need to make substantial changes to the cars. e.g. road-tyre sized and patterned tyres, with compounds not critical to temperature. Otherwise we just have to accept rain and modern cars don't mix, and wet races will be somewhat stop-start.

 

(Edited because I misspelt "root" as "toot").


Edited by Sterzo, 03 October 2022 - 09:29.


#16 JimmyClark

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:34

Camera's will never show exactly how visibility is for the human eyes, unfortunately.

 

Indeed. And they are placed a bit higher, so will naturally catch more spray. 

 

If there is a change in conditions for the race day, there should be a rule to allow teams to make full wet weather setup changes and forget parc ferme. The two-compound rule is already overruled in wet conditions, so there is no reason why teams should not be allowed to do this if there is a higher than 50% chance of rain for the race window in the forecast 4 hours before the race start. 


Edited by JimmyClark, 03 October 2022 - 09:34.


#17 Frood

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:36

The other problem is that if it rains in testing, for example, the teams hardly bother running as they don't want to risk a crash and losing parts/time rebuilding the car.

It's a catch 22. Teams don't trust the tyre enough to run. Pirelli don't get enough data to develop the tyre.

#18 RA2

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:40

This topic is BS.

 

If it rains, they should not be racing. Conditions for the spectators are already poor, now you want them to sit in the rain and watch 1 car and the spray behind it? Stop the race and start when conditions are better for people to enjoy the race. It is not about people who watch on TV but the priority of the people who support hosting the race.



#19 Ruusperi

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:55

This topic is BS.

 

If it rains, they should not be racing.  Stop the race and start when conditions are better for people to enjoy the race.

What if it rains the whole day? What if there are 8 consecutive rain-affected race Sundays. Do you cancel 8 races, 1/3 of the season?

F1 is an outdoor sport, and has always raced in rain for the past 72 years.



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#20 Roadhouse

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 09:58

This topic is BS.

 

If it rains, they should not be racing. Conditions for the spectators are already poor, now you want them to sit in the rain and watch 1 car and the spray behind it? Stop the race and start when conditions are better for people to enjoy the race. It is not about people who watch on TV but the priority of the people who support hosting the race.

 

I don't think the spectators at Spa 2021 enjoyed waiting for the race to start.



#21 Clatter

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 10:02

I think the number of amateur errors from almost all the drivers in Singapore showed that the FIA are actually justified.

The whole of the new generation have little to no experience in proper wet conditions.

They also don't have the benefit of a car set up for wet weather running. With cars running so close to the ground, the tyres would have to be huge to prevent aquaplaning in the conditions where the wets would often have been used.

#22 SenorSjon

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 10:03

Does that 30m mins include the period while they clean up the debris from the first start

 

Did it happen in the race? The combined field is paid what? Over 200m? to drive the cars.

 

More odd was the delay in allowing DRS during the race ..... All runners were on drys for a little while longer than I would have expected for Race Control to allow DRS.

 

Does Race Control have a duty of care to F1 drivers to allow them to use DRS only when it is safe to do so?   

 

 

F1 needs a new insurance policy ....  

 

That was at Imola as well iirc. Very late reactivating DRS.

 

Well, at the start of Monaco GP visibility was like this for Norris.

Norris-Monaco-2022.jpg

 

And for Gasly at Imola start:

gasly-imola-2022.jpg

 

Plus we have had qualifyings this year (Montreal, Silverstone) that were run on full wets. So it's rather inconsistent what the principle for full wet racing is is. Depends on the mindset of the race director. Just like whether to use VSC or SC, there's no consistency. However, I agree the pussification of racing on full wets has gotten worse. It started with Charlie, who probably got traumatized from Spa 1998 pileup.

 

Camera's are very poor to see this. The same when they try to catch fading daylight. They usually let it appear lighter than it really is.

 

As so often, we need to go to the root of the problem. It's not a problem that the FIA is risk-averse. They should be averse to death and injury. Nor is there a trade-off between safety and racing. You don't get good racing when cars are piled into the wall.

 

If we want racing in the rain, we need to make substantial changes to the cars. e.g. road-tyre sized and patterned tyres, with compounds not critical to temperature. Otherwise we just have to accept rain and modern cars don't mix, and wet races will be somewhat stop-start.

 

(Edited because I misspelt "root" as "toot").

 

Wets are bigger than regular tires so the cars sit higher. Probably a cause why Verstappen bottomed out when trying to overtake Norris. The slicks have a lower thread.

 

The other problem is that if it rains in testing, for example, the teams hardly bother running as they don't want to risk a crash and losing parts/time rebuilding the car.

It's a catch 22. Teams don't trust the tyre enough to run. Pirelli don't get enough data to develop the tyre.

 

Problem is. They haul wets/inters around that are too few for a rain stricken weekend, but too many if they aren't used. FP3 was a shambles with no running in the wet.

 

I liked Bernie with his monsoon tires to always go racing.



#23 JimmyClark

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Posted 03 October 2022 - 10:08

This topic is BS.

 

If it rains, they should not be racing. Conditions for the spectators are already poor, now you want them to sit in the rain and watch 1 car and the spray behind it? Stop the race and start when conditions are better for people to enjoy the race. It is not about people who watch on TV but the priority of the people who support hosting the race.

 

Sorry, I strongly disagree with this. If I was a spectator I'd be very excited to see them racing in the wet. I'd be soaked anyway; I'd rather have memories of a race than just take home trenchfoot (a la those who suffered Spa 2021). 

 

Probably over half of F1's greatest races have been in the wet. It is the pinnacle of driving skill. If we lost that, the sport would be a lot poorer. 


Edited by JimmyClark, 03 October 2022 - 10:09.


#24 BRG

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:14

This topic is BS.

 

If it rains, they should not be racing. Conditions for the spectators are already poor, now you want them to sit in the rain and watch 1 car and the spray behind it? Stop the race and start when conditions are better for people to enjoy the race. It is not about people who watch on TV but the priority of the people who support hosting the race.

Bizarre comment.  Where are the spectators supposed to go whilst they are waiting for the race to restart?  Is there some huge hall available for many tens of thousands of people to take shelter?  Better to run the race and let the poor soaked spectators go home sooner, rather than sitting around in the rain waiting.



#25 RA2

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:22

This is a good way to enjoy the race just to keep the TV viewers happy?

 

the-start-of-the-race-is-delayed-due-to-



#26 Wuzak

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:47

Well, at the start of Monaco GP visibility was like this for Norris.

 

Monaco GP started with full wets.



#27 Wuzak

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:49

If we had a tire in between the intermediate and slick , it would have been used on every wet race this year. And it would make strategy more competitive

 

Michelin did.



#28 Izzyeviel

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 15:51

Well I'd rather watch a race in the freezing rain (like I do when I watch football) than stand in the freezing rain for hours on end without seeing any action because the drivers are afraid of a few drops of rain.



#29 pdac

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:16

What if it rains the whole day? What if there are 8 consecutive rain-affected race Sundays. Do you cancel 8 races, 1/3 of the season?

F1 is an outdoor sport, and has always raced in rain for the past 72 years.

 

Well, if you think races should not go ahead in those conditions, then, yes - there should be no inconsistency. If that means the season cannot be run, then that's how it mush be. But, in reality, how often might that happen?

 

On the other hand ... as you say, F1 has always been an outdoor sport and, as such, should embrace all weather conditions.



#30 pdac

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:18

They also don't have the benefit of a car set up for wet weather running. With cars running so close to the ground, the tyres would have to be huge to prevent aquaplaning in the conditions where the wets would often have been used.

 

It would not be too difficult to adapt the rules to include a "race declared wet running" situation, where all teams had to adjust their settings so that there were a minimum ground clearance (as short notice).



#31 HerbieMcQueen

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:42

Just thought this should have a separate topic, what’s with the FIA’s risk adverse attitude towards rain nowadays? During FP3 in Singapore the SC had to be out to test the circuit for the F1 cars.  By the time the session was running, it was too dry for the extreme wet tyres, are the extreme wets still that bad? We have one of the safest cars in F1 but most of the time when a shower comes they delay the start and by the time it gets up and running the wet tyres are not usually used as it’s too dry and within 20 laps or so we could be running slicks.

Wild theory: Bianchi's dad is holding a massive legal shitstorm over them, he was mad for years.

 

Sensible theory: The world at large has slowly adopted the mindset that nothing bad or risky is ever allowed to be seen, felt, or occur and this has threaded its way into every pore of daily reality.



#32 ExFlagMan

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:42

It would not be too difficult to adapt the rules to include a "race declared wet running" situation, where all teams had to adjust their settings so that there were a minimum ground clearance (as short notice).

 

And maybe remove the aerodynamic devices that suck the water up from the track and distribute as a fine mist behind the car.

 

It is surprising just how long that mist remains in the air, unless there is enough of a breeze to blow it off the track (and over the spectators) or it is raining hard enough for the falling raindrops to push it back down (until of course the next car comes along and repeats the process.



#33 ConsiderAndGo

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:50

It would not be too difficult to adapt the rules to include a "race declared wet running" situation, where all teams had to adjust their settings so that there were a minimum ground clearance (as short notice).


Don’t be crazy, that’s FAR too sensible for the FIA to ever consider.

But yeah, full wets are pointless, so drop them. I’m sure Pirelli would be happy with the saved cash.

#34 ARTGP

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:54

Don’t be crazy, that’s FAR too sensible for the FIA to ever consider.

But yeah, full wets are pointless, so drop them. I’m sure Pirelli would be happy with the saved cash.


Well teams pay for the tires so Pirelli will be happy to supply them without actually having to do any investment in improving them because we’ll never race on them.

#35 ARTGP

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 16:55

And maybe remove the aerodynamic devices that suck the water up from the track and distribute as a fine mist behind the car.

It is surprising just how long that mist remains in the air, unless there is enough of a breeze to blow it off the track (and over the spectators) or it is raining hard enough for the falling raindrops to push it back down (until of course the next car comes along and repeats the process.


What you describe is the reason that following has improved so I don’t think there is any going back from it. It has the consequence of increasing spray.

#36 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 17:06

Well something needs to be done. If they can’t bring themselves to have a proper race due to spray then have a staggered start Isle of Man TT style race so that we’d at least have something.

Waiting until it’s way too dry for full wets is just ridiculous.

#37 genius83

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 17:48

The biggest problem for teams in the wet conditions is the chance of crashes and damages because of it whether it is the chasis damage or power unit damage and that is why they don't want to race in wet. Other problems are lack of sensibility from FIA i.e. Parc Ferme rule, in wet conditions they should remove the parc ferme before the race start so that all the teams could try to make their cars as much driveable in wet as possible.



#38 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 18:05

We had a previous thread where there seemed be be quite a lot of agreement with wheel guards being fitted to stop spray and proper diameter wet tyres to raise the ride height enough.

#39 Clatter

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 18:27

It would not be too difficult to adapt the rules to include a "race declared wet running" situation, where all teams had to adjust their settings so that there were a minimum ground clearance (as short notice).


It wouldn't, but they have not done it. They can do virtually anything under parc ferme conditions, bar make setup changes. They could change the rules to allow changes for climatic reasons, but.....

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#40 YamahaV10

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 18:49

Michelin did.

 

What was it called ? got pics



#41 PlatenGlass

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 19:32

It would not be too difficult to adapt the rules to include a "race declared wet running" situation, where all teams had to adjust their settings so that there were a minimum ground clearance (as short notice).

Ground clearance can be covered by wet tyre diameter easily enough.

#42 Daniel Lester

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Posted 04 October 2022 - 22:59

In 2003, wasn't there a rule that the teams and tyre suppliers could only bring 1 type of wet tyre (save on freight) and both Michelin and Bridgestone produced something nearer an intermediate tyre that could run into the drying conditions, rather than a hybrid wet/inter tyre. Which caused an issue when they reached Brazil and it poured with rain and the race was delayed and then started behind the safety car as no teams had tyres that could cope with anything nearing full wet conditions. The rule was scrapped and they returned to having wet and inters, but over time they rarely have raced with wet tyres, occasionally they allow qualifying in full wet conditions, but often we just wait for it dry out and no sooner does it restart everyone switches to inters - which suggests we waited too long... I think if there is little or no standing water on the circuit then it should be sufficient to race on, whether that's on full wets or inters - and to further qualify it, if there is standing water in slow corners then no real issue, it's standing water down the straights and through fast corners that poses the risk - I'm not sure who makes that call in an era where risk has to be managed to a reasonable level. The counter argument is that if risk management was a factor in whether they run or not, then they'd never use street tracks as they are lined with cement barriers and armco, the risk of damage/injury is higher than running on a conventional/traditional track which in turn are more risky than running at a modern tilkedrome. A full wet race with some standing water in Abu Dhabi (yes I know not likely) is probably less risky than a dry race in Singapore. 

 

The biggest issue is the inconsistency, sometimes they run, sometimes they don't. They started the 1997 and 2000 Belgium GP behind the safety car, in 1998 they didn't (twice)... it's be going on for years.



#43 ARTGP

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 00:42

If we had a tire in between the intermediate and slick , it would have been used on every wet race this year. And it would make strategy more competitive

 

 

I wonder why the tyre companies have not come up with such a concept ?

 

Maybe some genius on here could come up with a design that would be suitable.

 

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic ExFlagMan but for your reference, Michelin DID develop exactly such a tire. It was called the "slicktermediate". It was used in the early iterations of the FIA WEC (2012 ILMC)

 

https://michelinraci...he-hybrid-tire/

 

Someone will have to fact check me on this part as I can't decide if it is my imagination run wild, but I believe that the teams like Audi even had the option of hand cutting grooves into this tire with a "hot knife". It was a truly remarkable tire. 


Edited by ARTGP, 05 October 2022 - 00:44.


#44 Wuzak

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 02:00

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic ExFlagMan but for your reference, Michelin DID develop exactly such a tire. It was called the "slicktermediate". It was used in the early iterations of the FIA WEC (2012 ILMC)

 

https://michelinraci...he-hybrid-tire/

 

Someone will have to fact check me on this part as I can't decide if it is my imagination run wild, but I believe that the teams like Audi even had the option of hand cutting grooves into this tire with a "hot knife". It was a truly remarkable tire. 

 

That'd be the one.

 

Many years ago (30-40 years ago) they only had full wet tyres. For intermediate conditions some would hand cut grooves in the slicks.



#45 YamahaV10

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 03:29

In 2003, wasn't there a rule that the teams and tyre suppliers could only bring 1 type of wet tyre (save on freight) and both Michelin and Bridgestone produced something nearer an intermediate tyre that could run into the drying conditions, rather than a hybrid wet/inter tyre. Which caused an issue when they reached Brazil and it poured with rain and the race was delayed and then started behind the safety car as no teams had tyres that could cope with anything nearing full wet conditions. The rule was scrapped and they returned to having wet and inters, but over time they rarely have raced with wet tyres, occasionally they allow qualifying in full wet conditions, but often we just wait for it dry out and no sooner does it restart everyone switches to inters - which suggests we waited too long... I think if there is little or no standing water on the circuit then it should be sufficient to race on, whether that's on full wets or inters - and to further qualify it, if there is standing water in slow corners then no real issue, it's standing water down the straights and through fast corners that poses the risk - I'm not sure who makes that call in an era where risk has to be managed to a reasonable level. The counter argument is that if risk management was a factor in whether they run or not, then they'd never use street tracks as they are lined with cement barriers and armco, the risk of damage/injury is higher than running on a conventional/traditional track which in turn are more risky than running at a modern tilkedrome. A full wet race with some standing water in Abu Dhabi (yes I know not likely) is probably less risky than a dry race in Singapore. 

 

The biggest issue is the inconsistency, sometimes they run, sometimes they don't. They started the 1997 and 2000 Belgium GP behind the safety car, in 1998 they didn't (twice)... it's be going on for years.

 

Michelin shallow wets. 

 

lgp4dxrmimz51.png



#46 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 09:13

That'd be the one.

 

Many years ago (30-40 years ago) they only had full wet tyres. For intermediate conditions some would hand cut grooves in the slicks.

 

Correct - I can recall a Grand Prix at Brands Hatch where I was flagging at the pit lane entrance, near the area where one of the tyre companies was working and spent some of the time between races watching the tyre technicians grooving the slicks - was amazed at how quickly and accurately the did the job.



#47 JeePee

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 09:33

This is a good way to enjoy the race just to keep the TV viewers happy?

the-start-of-the-race-is-delayed-due-to-

Yes! Best race I've been to was Monza 2008. People don't melt in the rain you know.

#48 Ali623

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 09:53

This topic is BS.

 

If it rains, they should not be racing. Conditions for the spectators are already poor, now you want them to sit in the rain and watch 1 car and the spray behind it? Stop the race and start when conditions are better for people to enjoy the race. It is not about people who watch on TV but the priority of the people who support hosting the race.

 

Wet race I went to at Silverstone was the best race I've seen live of the few I've been to. Watching the cars struggle and kick up spray in person was awesome. Instead you're suggesting I turn up and find the race has been postponed until the rain stops, what am I meant to do? Can't leave the circuit so I'd be sitting in the rain still, just not watching racing.



#49 Izzyeviel

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:21

One thing I would like to see is provision given to starting the race on the Saturday or sunday morning if they think the weather is going to be awful - so Japan 2014 & Spa  2021 would've taken place the previous day.



#50 sportyskells

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Posted 05 October 2022 - 10:31

Or do a IndyCar and move the start time forward if there a risk of bad weather