2386 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

If you look at the Vettel-Alonso finish, that's basically what Perez was deprived of when Charles didn't brake early enough for his car to stay on the track. It's a lasting advantage, especially on the final lap.   Have a look at Alonso who had far better tires than Vettel:

 

Vettel and Alonso FINISH SIDE BY SIDE - Japanese Grand Prix 2022 - YouTube

 

 

Leading car is on worse tires and has to brake very early into the final chicane. As Vettel braked for the condition of his tires, Alonso was allowed the opportunity to go up the inside with much more grip.  Charles didn't brake early enough to stay on the track which would have seen Checo all over him on the run to the line.  It was absolutely a lasting advantage to bypass the chicane. 

Edited by ARTGP, 10 October 2022 - 03:28.

[ARTGP]

This telemetry is from f1-tempo.com:

 

Compared to the lap 26 braking point into the chicane, charles started braking roughly 83 meters later on lap 27 and roughly 134 meters later on lap 28, the final lap when he went off. Safe to say he braked way too late to make the corner.  An extra 51 meters compared to lap 27 even. 

 

 

 

 

 

For visual reference, here are the 150m and 100m brake marker boards into the final chicane. So they are separated by 50 meters (which is also the difference between the braking points on lap 27 and lap 28)

 

 

 

So all in all, I suspect that is why Charles said he deserved the penalty straight away. He's braked miles deeper than any previous lap, even later than Perez who had much better tires at the time. If he had braked much earlier like on lap 27 or lap 26, Perez would have had a chance to send it.  He understood very well why he was penalized. 

Edited by ARTGP, 10 October 2022 - 04:11.

[warp]

 

So all in all, I suspect that is why Charles said he deserved the penalty straight away. He's braked miles deeper than any previous lap, even later than Perez who had much better tires at the time. If he had braked much earlier like on lap 27 or lap 26, Perez would have had a chance to send it.  He understood very well why he was penalized. 

 

Which means that he was actually trying to cling to that place fully knowing it could well stick or go belly up. Kudos for that and for the sportmanship.

[Ivanhoe]

Many other championships forces you to come to a complete stop before you can get going again if you miss a chicane. It's not a "not gaining" it's a "you made a mistake and should lose something" rule. I like that.

 

FIA have ruined me, all I can think of is that they saw a chance to get Verstappen, Red Bull and Honda to celebrate in front of huge iluminated Honda ads, and they did it. I am fully aware that this is a "me"-problem. But I can't help myself feeling that everything that's being done these days are to maximize PR and talk. (example, see post above)

I don’t really think you can equate individual stewards with an abstract organization like FIA or FOM and I don’t think there’s some secret instruction mechanism in place that tells the stewards what to decide to fit some alleged organization’s agenda.

[FullOppositeLock]

Many other championships forces you to come to a complete stop before you can get going again if you miss a chicane. It's not a "not gaining" it's a "you made a mistake and should lose something" rule. I like that.

FIA have ruined me, all I can think of is that they saw a chance to get Verstappen, Red Bull and Honda to celebrate in front of huge iluminated Honda ads, and they did it. I am fully aware that this is a "me"-problem. But I can't help myself feeling that everything that's being done these days are to maximize PR and talk. (example, see post above)

So what you are suggesting is that FIA should not have applied the rules as they are written to prevent the deserving champion from being crowned at its PU manufacturer’s home race..?

[ensign14]

So what you are suggesting is that FIA should not have applied the rules as they are written to prevent the deserving champion from being crowned at its PU manufacturer’s home race..?

But they didn't, in order to have the champion crowned at the manufacturer's home race.  They didn't run the full distance.  So results should be brought back a lap.

[TheFish]

Thinking about it, and I still dont think the full points make sense and I do hope they adjust the rule.

 

Surely the intention of the rule has nothing to do with a red flag situation, but it is to reward races where full distances are not met accordingly with the points? It just makes no sense to have a seperate rule for the finishing under red flag, rather than a simple one on the actual distance covered. I appreciate the literal rule, so i sort off understand why they did it (even though it seems that nobody interpreted the rule accordingly...), but I do hope they change it.

Agreed. The intention of the rule is that you don't deserve full points if you haven't run close to a full race.

 

Whether the end comes from a chequered flag or a red flag, you deserve the same amount of points for the same amount of racing. If you've done 50% of a race you've earned 50% of the points etc. Ridiculous rules.

 

Andrew Benson blames Masi for this oversight.

 

 

Rules are discussed with the teams and have to go through a formal approval process. But guess who wrote the new rule that has now been exposed so publicly?

 

Masi, before he was relieved of his post over the winter.

 

[Heyli]

Agreed. The intention of the rule is that you don't deserve full points if you haven't run close to a full race.

 

Whether the end comes from a chequered flag or a red flag, you deserve the same amount of points for the same amount of racing. If you've done 50% of a race you've earned 50% of the points etc. Ridiculous rules.

 

Andrew Benson blames Masi for this oversight.

Wurz mentioned this yesterday, and I thought it was somehow ironic to read that this would mean that Masi gifted Verstappen with 2 championships!

 

However, I had a look back at older sporting regulations and the wording there on the bit that they now used as an explanation was always the same.

 

In 2021, they were talking about suspended and I had a quick look at 2018 (pre-Masi times) and there it was already the same:

Rule 6.5: "If a race is suspended under Article 41, and cannot be resumed, no points will be awarded if..."

 

So in this case, I dont think it's fair to blame Masi. Ok, he could have corrected it I guess, but the original wording was not from him. 

[FullOppositeLock]

But they didn't, in order to have the champion crowned at the manufacturer's home race. They didn't run the full distance. So results should be brought back a lap.

Excellent. Go and tell FIA and get the result amended. I’m sure many Verstappen fans like me would love nothing more than to have a true celebration for his achievements in Austin rather than Herbert informing Max he’s world champion as if his dog had just died.

[SophieB]

But they didn't, in order to have the champion crowned at the manufacturer's home race.  They didn't run the full distance.  So results should be brought back a lap.

 

Yeah, I don't have a dog in this particular fight especially but it does feel like the party line here is something like 'the points have been awarded in strict accordance with the rule as written because even though it's written badly and not what anyone really intended, Rules Iz Rules' AND AT THE SAME EXACT TIME just handwaving the whole possibly finishing the whole race one lap too short thing and the strict rules that go with it away in the name of being pragmatic. I don't see a conspiracy, though just symptomatic of the FIA's uncertain and muddled approach to running the sport. 

[ensign14]

Excellent. Go and tell FIA and get the result amended. I’m sure many Verstappen fans like me would love nothing more than to have a true celebration for his achievements in Austin rather than Herbert informing Max he’s world champion as if his dog had just died.

For me the fun thing would be for the FIA to be shown up to the world at large for the bunch of useless cretins that they are.  Which is of course why the FIA will hide it.  I genuinely detest those bastard****s.  They will kill the sport.

[w1Y]

For me there are people at the FIA not doing their job properly.

There should be a committee for rule changes, in fact I assume there is, and there should be simulation of those rules. They should be checked and checked.

It looks like senior people are agreeing them in principle and then someone is going away and writing them terribly.

It's shockingly bad.

[Augurk]

For me the fun thing would be for the FIA to be shown up to the world at large for the bunch of useless cretins that they are.  Which is of course why the FIA will hide it.  I genuinely detest those bastard****s.  They will kill the sport.

So let me try to get this logic straight. The FIA/FOM wanted the champions to be crowned in Japan on their home turf (even if FOM surely would want it celebrated in the US as that fits their marketing strategy much better). So what did they decide to do? They finished the race a lap early. And therefore removing a lap of chances for Perez to overtake Leclerc who was hot on his tail.

Remember when Leclerc made his mistake Max had already completed his race so the most probable outcome was for Leclerc to finish P2 at that point.

 

Yeah, sound logic there.

[FullOppositeLock]

For me the fun thing would be for the FIA to be shown up to the world at large for the bunch of useless cretins that they are. Which is of course why the FIA will hide it. I genuinely detest those bastard****s. They will kill the sport.

Mate, I think we would all love to see change in the way FIA handles things. I personally believe the 2022 regulations work to an extent, and the financial regulations added with diminishing wind tunnel/CFD time for higher WCC placings are really good developments that should hopefully bring the field closer together. I’ve also been impressed with the new race directors’ handling of track limits, but some problems indeed remain. The rules are not written clearly enough, the risk adverse attitude towards rain is insulting to the drivers and the fans, and there is still a lack of consistency in penalties given for rule infringements. Sadly I notice many the same problems in other sports such as football, and one of the bigger problems on the social side is increasing tribalism and lack of trust in authorities. FIA still have their work cut out despite some good steps in recent times.

[TheFish]

https://twitter.com/...368209681350656

 

No wonder teams, drivers, commentators and us were confused.

[FullOppositeLock]

For me there are people at the FIA not doing their job properly.

There should be a committee for rule changes, in fact I assume there is, and there should be simulation of those rules. They should be checked and checked.

It looks like senior people are agreeing them in principle and then someone is going away and writing them terribly.

It's shockingly bad.

These senior people are in fact team representatives. Team principals yesterday were commenting that they needed to check with their people if this rule was as intended. Madness.

[Nemo1965]

So let me try to get this logic straight. The FIA/FOM wanted the champions to be crowned in Japan on their home turf (even if FOM surely would want it celebrated in the US as that fits their marketing strategy much better). So what did they decide to do? They finished the race a lap early. And therefore removing a lap of chances for Perez to overtake Leclerc who was hot on his tail.

Remember when Leclerc made his mistake Max had already completed his race so the most probable outcome was for Leclerc to finish P2 at that point.

 

Yeah, sound logic there.

 

Of course it is not logic, it is keep throwing mud (or asterixes *) against a wall, hoping it will one day stick. (Or ketchup, from the High School of Bad Losers)

 

PS:

Oh, and now I want to be a bad 'winner'. A delicious quote for the Asterix Wielders on this board: according to the BBC, the new rule giving full points after a shortened race that was not red-flagged was... Michael Masi, before he was relieved of his post over the winter. 

Edited by Nemo1965, 10 October 2022 - 07:24.

[FullOppositeLock]

https://twitter.com/...368209681350656

No wonder teams, drivers, commentators and us were confused.

I work in IT quality assurance. Can’t say I’m overly surprised at dozens of people missing glaring gaps and contradictions in requirements while asked to review them. I see it almost every day.

[Mechanic44]

https://the-race.com...-will-be-fixed/

Rule mistake that let Verstappen clinch F1 title will be fixed.

Is this the new Any or All?

[JimmyClark]

As I predicted, this rule is the result of poor wording / grammatical error, and will be changed.

https://the-race.com...-will-be-fixed/

[ensign14]

So let me try to get this logic straight. The FIA/FOM wanted the champions to be crowned in Japan on their home turf (even if FOM surely would want it celebrated in the US as that fits their marketing strategy much better). So what did they decide to do? They finished the race a lap early. And therefore removing a lap of chances for Perez to overtake Leclerc who was hot on his tail.

I have no idea what the FIA's motives are.

 

Fact is they finished the race a lap early.  Outside their own regulations.  And are covering it up with the Quisling journalists sitting on their hands like the ****ing Fritzsches they are.

[DeKnyff]

Many other championships forces you to come to a complete stop before you can get going again if you miss a chicane. It's not a "not gaining" it's a "you made a mistake and should lose something" rule. I like that.

 

FIA have ruined me, all I can think of is that they saw a chance to get Verstappen, Red Bull and Honda to celebrate in front of huge iluminated Honda ads, and they did it. I am fully aware that this is a "me"-problem. But I can't help myself feeling that everything that's being done these days are to maximize PR and talk. (example, see post above)

 

Are you sure that Honda wouldn't have preferred a full PR exposure at the next race, in the US?

[ensign14]

For me there are people at the FIA not doing their job properly.

There should be a committee for rule changes, in fact I assume there is, and there should be simulation of those rules. They should be checked and checked.

It looks like senior people are agreeing them in principle and then someone is going away and writing them terribly.

It's shockingly bad.

Why the **** was MASI in charge of writing regulations?  What qualifications does he have?  Is he a lawyer?  A commercial agent?  Someone who knows about drafting legal documents?  Masi barely has any qualifications to walk and chew gum at the same time and he was in charge of WRITING REGULATIONS?

 

At that point you realize that the FIA has zero interest in the fair governance of the sport and wants to make it up as it goes along so their shiteating grins can be all over ****ing Netflix. 

[JeePee]

I have no idea what the FIA's motives are.

Time to understand the FIA has no motives. Just clumsiness and unprofessionalism.

[Diablobb81]

Why the **** was MASI in charge of writing regulations?  What qualifications does he have?  Is he a lawyer?  A commercial agent?  Someone who knows about drafting legal documents?  Masi barely has any qualifications to walk and chew gum at the same time and he was in charge of WRITING REGULATIONS?

 

At that point you realize that the FIA has zero interest in the fair governance of the sport and wants to make it up as it goes along so their shiteating grins can be all over ****ing Netflix. 

 

Nice of you to take the bait. Maybe Masi wrote the rules (i think he is again a scapegoat) but the proposals went to the WMSC, including all the teams and all the high paid lawyers.

[Alexis*27]

I'm still fuming that they were in the cars ready to go and then they aborted it at the last second. Absolutely terrified of letting them run in the wet - Sainz wouldn't have shunted if he'd been on the right tyre. And when they did eventually get going they raced in appalling visibility on full wets with absolutely no problems.

Need to mandate they have to start on full wets if the race director calls it. Then they can switch to inters at their own risk. Otherwise we end up stopping the race because they're all on the wrong tyre as a get out of jail free card.

[Tenmantaylor]

[JimmyClark]

Why the **** was MASI in charge of writing regulations? What qualifications does he have? Is he a lawyer? A commercial agent? Someone who knows about drafting legal documents? Masi barely has any qualifications to walk and chew gum at the same time and he was in charge of WRITING REGULATIONS?

At that point you realize that the FIA has zero interest in the fair governance of the sport and wants to make it up as it goes along so their shiteating grins can be all over ****ing Netflix.

Of course they didn't put Masi in a darkened room with a blank book and a pencil and tell him to come out two days later with all the regulations.

These things are decided by committee, and then - I expect - ratified by lawyers. But I guess for 2022 there were so many changes, and said lawyers and advisors were concentrating mostly on potential technical loopholes, that a restart and finishing procedure that has not happened yet was probably overlooked.

Embarrassing indeed, but not the fault of one man.

[Augurk]

I have no idea what the FIA's motives are.

 

Fact is they finished the race a lap early.  Outside their own regulations.  And are covering it up with the Quisling journalists sitting on their hands like the ****ing Fritzsches they are.

"Fact is" that you assign motive to the FIA and their actions and when someone provides proof of the FIA's handling that doesn't fit your narrative you just evade and deflect.

[TheFish]

"Fact is" that you assign motive to the FIA and their actions and when someone provides proof of the FIA's handling that doesn't fit your narrative you just evade and deflect.

They are a stickler for the rules now. Except when they aren't. It doesn't have to be biased in one direction for it to be incompetent and bizarre.

[GentlemanDriver091]

But they didn't, in order to have the champion crowned at the manufacturer's home race. They didn't run the full distance. So results should be brought back a lap.

You do realize that, if teams were actually informed of full points, Max had such a lead he could have pitted for fastest lap point and taken the title in Suzuka anyway without the need for the Leclerc incident?

[ANF]

As I predicted, this rule is the result of poor wording / grammatical error, and will be changed.

https://the-race.com...-will-be-fixed/

I think everyone in that article is confusing two different problems:

The problem with Spa 2021 was that points were awarded despite the fact that the race leader hadn't been racing at all! So they fixed that with the new rule which says that "no points will be awarded unless a minimum of two (2) laps have been completed by the leader without a Safety Car and/or VSC intervention". This has nothing to do with Suzuka 2022.

The problem with Suzuka 2022 was that full points were awarded despite the fact that the race leader hadn't completed 75% of the scheduled race distance when the "maximum total race time" had elapsed. Because the half/full points rule, which goes way back, only applies to suspended races that cannot be resumed. This is separate problem.

In hindsight, the half/full points rule should have been adapted to the new "maximum total race time" when this was introduced back in 2012. But it wasn't. And it seems that nobody in the last eleven seasons has ever thought about what the regulations say will happen when the race leader takes the chequered flag at the end of the maximum total race time after a very long race suspension. That's the problem. And that problem could have been dealt with in 2012 or 2015 or 2018.

Edited by ANF, 10 October 2022 - 09:34.

[JeePee]

Max and Charles tyres at the end of the race:

 

[P123]

Shows why Perez was on Leclerc with a few laps to go.

[Widefoot2]

Did anyone notice how much better the racing was without DRS?

[A little late]

 

Yes, all we need are thoroughly wet races and we can dispense with DRS. 

[Roadhouse]

A further insight into the post race confusion.

https://streamable.com/w56wvd

 

(stolen from reddit https://www.reddit.c...sion_over_the/)

[ANF]

Was Vettel ever under investigation for his unsafe rejoin at the start? https://twitter.com/...125171117072386

Edit: Never mind, he was looking left while reversing and probably made sure he had let the last car pass.

Edited by ANF, 12 October 2022 - 20:38.