2386 replies to this topic

[Clrnc]

Jerem, on 09 Oct 2022 - 12:01, said:

The Leclerc penalty is a joke. I can't remember a driver get a 5s penalty for missing a chicane and staying ahead for the first time of the race, without warning, black/white flag, or whatever. This sets a major precedent.

Would you feel better if he one driver outbrakes himself, intentionally cut the chicane to stay ahead of the other driver, gaining a lasting advantage right at the end of the race and getting the position without any penalty?

 

If yes then I applaud you. 

[BigCat]

So how many laps were ran today? Interested to see the time per lap Max put on everyone 

[Laptom]

Jerem, on 09 Oct 2022 - 12:01, said:

The Leclerc penalty is a joke. I can't remember a driver get a 5s penalty for missing a chicane and staying ahead for the first time of the race, without warning, black/white flag, or whatever. This sets a major precedent.

Max did het it twice even, with pretty much the same result.

[RedRabbit]

BigCat, on 09 Oct 2022 - 13:48, said:

So how many laps were ran today? Interested to see the time per lap Max put on everyone

28 laps I believe

[Laptom]

That is about 1sec per lap on Lec and Perez.

[BigCat]

Laptom, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:01, said:

That is about 1sec per lap on Lec and Perez.

Absolute steamroll 

[cpbell]

I've not had time to read through this thread, but can anyone please explain the Leclerc 5 second penalty to me?  I thought penalties for that sort of thing only applied in one or more of the following cases:

 

1.  Driver A (the one who cut the chicken!) gains a place as a result.

 

2.  Driver A prevents a certain overtake by Driver B.

 

3.  Driver A gains a clear and lasting time advantage.

 

Which of these applied?

[Nemo1965]

cpbell, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:42, said:

I've not had time to read through this thread, but can anyone please explain the Leclerc 5 second penalty to me? I thought penalties for that sort of thing only applied in one or more of the following cases:

1. Driver A (the one who cut the chicken!) gains a place as a result.

2. Driver A prevents a certain overtake by Driver B.

3. Driver A gains a clear and lasting time advantage.

Which of these applied?

2 and 3. IMHO.

[Marklar]

I-

[Astandahl]

Laptom, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:01, said:

That is about 1sec per lap on Lec and Perez.

Some people laughed at me when i said that Max would have finished easily 30s ahead of Perez in Singapore. The fact that Perez was so "quick" (i.e. being able to finish 2nd) highlighted how faster the RB 18 is compared to all other cars.

Edited by Astandahl, 09 October 2022 - 14:49.

[ANF]

SenorSjon, on 09 Oct 2022 - 13:08, said:

The 3 hours was from 2021 onwards, before that it was the 4 hours from 2012.

Yeah, but you'd would still have to start one hour earlier if the race is supposed to end one hour later. Unless you can move the sunset.

Edited by ANF, 09 October 2022 - 14:56.

[gillesfan76]

Marklar, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:47, said:

I-

 

I believe that’s also what Petrov said to Alonso in 2012.

[ForzaFormula]

Jerem, on 09 Oct 2022 - 12:01, said:

The Leclerc penalty is a joke. I can't remember a driver get a 5s penalty for missing a chicane and staying ahead for the first time of the race, without warning, black/white flag, or whatever. This sets a major precedent.

It's a big joke, but they had to crown their champion at Honda's home race, when he was going to win it easily anyway at the next race. FIA just shot them self in the foot again and lost even more credibility and showing again who they are lying in bed with.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 09 October 2022 - 15:00.

[cpbell]

Nemo1965, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:43, said:

2 and 3. IMHO.

2 is bollocks as Perez had dropped back behind Leclerc before Leclerc ran off.  I'm not convinced by 3 either, as Perez appeared to be closer after Charles rejoined.

[Mechanic44]

Looking at the race pace, Lewis got into the 1:45’s around lap 10 which is when he got stuck behind Ocon. I think he could have matched Max’s pace out infront.

[ANF]

cpbell, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:42, said:

I've not had time to read through this thread, but can anyone please explain the Leclerc 5 second penalty to me?  I thought penalties for that sort of thing only applied in one or more of the following cases:
 
1.  Driver A (the one who cut the chicken!) gains a place as a result.
 
2.  Driver A prevents a certain overtake by Driver B.
 
3.  Driver A gains a clear and lasting time advantage.
 
Which of these applied?

 

Nemo1965, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:43, said:

2 and 3. IMHO.

And the stewards agree. Looks like Leclerc would have been asked to give up the position had there been one lap to go the chequered flag not been shown one lap early.

'Although car 16 did not gain a position by going off track, it was still deemed to have gained a lasting advantage. This determination takes into account the numerous driver briefings where the Race Directors advised that an “advantage” would be considered as having been gained if you go off track and return in the same position whilst defending. There have been a number of precedents this year in particular ZHO in Saudi Arabia and ALO in Miami.'

Edited by ANF, 09 October 2022 - 15:04.

[Astandahl]

ANF, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:04, said:

And the stewards agree. Looks like Leclerc would have been asked to give up the position had there been one lap to go the chequered flag not been shown one lap early.

'Although car 16 did not gain a position by going off track, it was still deemed to have gained a lasting advantage. This determination takes into account the numerous driver briefings where the Race Directors advised that an “advantage” would be considered as having been gained if you go off track and return in the same position whilst defending. There have been a number of precedents this year in particular ZHO in Saudi Arabia and ALO in Miami.'

Didn't ZHOU overtake Albon by cutting, and Alo gained a huge amount of time? Leclerc lost time cutting the chicane.

Edited by Astandahl, 09 October 2022 - 15:07.

[jpm2019]

Great race by Max. What a champion. Even the usual suspects still unable to move on from ad21 (are you 12 years old or what) and seeing conspiracies everywhere can’t ruin my day.

High level of driving overall. Pirelli needs to fix the fullwet and we can race almost every storm.

Kudos to latifi and ocon too. But max was in another planet today.

[Ivanhoe]

cpbell, on 09 Oct 2022 - 14:42, said:

I've not had time to read through this thread, but can anyone please explain the Leclerc 5 second penalty to me?  I thought penalties for that sort of thing only applied in one or more of the following cases:

 

1.  Driver A (the one who cut the chicken!) gains a place as a result.

 

2.  Driver A prevents a certain overtake by Driver B.

 

3.  Driver A gains a clear and lasting time advantage.

 

Which of these applied?

 

The steward’s decision speaks for itself.

 

Quote

Although car 16 did not gain a position by going off track, it was still deemed to have gained a lasting advantage. This determination takes into account the numerous driver briefings where the Race Directors advised that an “advantage” would be considered as having been gained if you go off track and return in the same position whilst defending. There have been a number of precedents this year in particular ZHO in Saudi Arabia and ALO in Miami.

Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the Stewards, in accordance with Article 15 of the FIA International Sporting Code and Chapter 4 of the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules, within the applicable time limits.

[ANF]

One thing's for sure: The conditions were indeed bad enough for the race to be red-flagged on lap 2. I didn't notice it on TV, but it became clear to me after listening to team radio from most of the drivers. There was zero visibility, the rain was increasing, they were aquaplaning on the intermediates – and nobody wanted to pit under the safety car and give up track position before the red flag.

[Ivanhoe]

Jerem, on 09 Oct 2022 - 12:01, said:

The Leclerc penalty is a joke. I can't remember a driver get a 5s penalty for missing a chicane and staying ahead for the first time of the race, without warning, black/white flag, or whatever. This sets a major precedent.

The steward’s decision mentions two precedents set this year.

[Astandahl]

Can someone link me the video of Zhou and Alonso?

[Atreiu]

Drivers and teams don’t need reprimands and warnings, just stick to the rulebook. Everyone knows it.

[SenorSjon]

ForzaFormula, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:00, said:

It's a big joke, but they had to crown their champion at Honda's home race, when he was going to win it easily anyway at the next race. FIA just shot them self in the foot again and lost even more credibility and showing again who they are lying in bed with.

 

I noticed your nickname before. So you surely have seen more track cuts penalized?

 

Astandahl, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:05, said:

Didn't ZHOU overtake Albon by cutting, and Alo gained a huge amount of time? Leclerc lost time cutting the chicane.

If he braked in the normal place or tried to make the chicane, he probably would have lost the position. Cutting the chicane and forcing Perez wide looked very similar to Vettel in Canada who cut the chicane and went wide to squeeze Hamilton. Difference was there was a wall on the outside back then, this time we had wet grass on the outside of a fast right hander.

[Risil]

ANF, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:11, said:

One thing's for sure: The conditions were indeed bad enough for the race to be red-flagged on lap 2. I didn't notice it on TV, but it became clear to me after listening to team radio from most of the drivers. There was zero visibility, the rain was increasing, they were aquaplaning on the intermediates – and nobody wanted to pit under the safety car and give up track position before the red flag.

I would've gone safety car start and full wets. That way you'd have less aquaplaning and visibility problems would be less consequential as everyone would be more strung out. Eventually, the cars would clear the water from the track and conditions would improve.

[ARTGP]

Astandahl, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:14, said:

Can someone link me the video of Zhou and Alonso?

 

https://twitter.com/...30zB523LdJ0hs5A

 

I think the issue is he'd been given a few warnings prior. 

Edited by ARTGP, 09 October 2022 - 15:21.

[cpbell]

Kao18, on 09 Oct 2022 - 12:05, said:

Have to say I was somewhat surprised as well.

 

 

Isnt this literally what happened with Hamilton at Abu Dhabi last year, where he was cleared by the stewards?

Wow - so it's an advantage if you don't gain an advantage!

[Astandahl]

ARTGP, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:19, said:

https://twitter.com/...30zB523LdJ0hs5A

Did he gain time on the car behind / ahead?

[Mechanic44]

What’s a bit surprising is it wasn’t like Sergio was side by side with Charles and he gained a huge advantage going off track. It was such a harsh penalty and how fast they gave that penalty was even more surprising.

I think the stewards have had another nightmare weekend

[as65p]

ForzaFormula, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:00, said:

It's a big joke, but they had to crown their champion at Honda's home race, when he was going to win it easily anyway at the next race. FIA just shot them self in the foot again and lost even more credibility and showing again who they are lying in bed with.

I don't quite get how in the same sentence you recognize the whole thing for the formality it was and then go on and try to make it a big issue about credibility and stuff.

 

However many points would have been given today, it would have changed nothing of any substance, not the race result nor the WDC result.

[Risil]

The fact of it being the last lap puts the stewards in a difficult position. If you don't penalize the driver aren't you creating an incentive to cut the chicane on the last lap no matter what?

[cpbell]

ANF, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:04, said:

And the stewards agree. Looks like Leclerc would have been asked to give up the position had there been one lap to go the chequered flag not been shown one lap early.

'Although car 16 did not gain a position by going off track, it was still deemed to have gained a lasting advantage. This determination takes into account the numerous driver briefings where the Race Directors advised that an “advantage” would be considered as having been gained if you go off track and return in the same position whilst defending. There have been a number of precedents this year in particular ZHO in Saudi Arabia and ALO in Miami.'

Thanks.

[cpbell]

jpm2019, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:10, said:

Great race by Max. What a champion. Even the usual suspects still unable to move on from ad21 (are you 12 years old or what) and seeing conspiracies everywhere can’t ruin my day.

High level of driving overall. Pirelli needs to fix the fullwet and we can race almost every storm.

Kudos to latifi and ocon too. But max was in another planet today.

AD21 was a cock-up; probably not deliberate, but the Regulations were not followed.  That said, I think Max deserved that title.

[ARTGP]

Mechanic44, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:20, said:

What’s a bit surprising is it wasn’t like Sergio was side by side with Charles and he gained a huge advantage going off track. It was such a harsh penalty and how fast they gave that penalty was even more surprising.

I think the stewards have had another nightmare weekend

 

Given the state of Charles's tires, one can argue that if he braked early enough to make the corner, Perez would have had more than a look at an overtake into the chicane.  Perez was already all over him in the hairpin on that same lap given the grip difference. 

Edited by ARTGP, 09 October 2022 - 15:26.

[as65p]

ANF, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:11, said:

One thing's for sure: The conditions were indeed bad enough for the race to be red-flagged on lap 2. I didn't notice it on TV, but it became clear to me after listening to team radio from most of the drivers. There was zero visibility, the rain was increasing, they were aquaplaning on the intermediates – and nobody wanted to pit under the safety car and give up track position before the red flag.

I know I sound like the old fart I am, but back in the day they would have removed Sainz and others binned cars under yellows and have the race run full distance or two hours, leaving the choice of visibility/speed ratio to the drivers.

[Ivanhoe]

Astandahl, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:20, said:

Did he gain time on the car behind / ahead?

Yeah, he dropped Schumacher outside of DRS range by cutting the chicane.

Quote

Fernando Alonso is a wily old fox and he showcased that at the inaugural Miami Grand Prix.

Running ahead of Haas driver Mick Schumacher, Alonso cut the Turn 15 chicane.

By doing this, he was able to drop Schumacher from the one-second DRS window.

Despite lifting off afterwards, Alonso picked up a five-second penalty, dropping him out of the points.

“We believe that it was very unfair and it was just incompetence from the stewards,” said Alonso. “They were not very professional, I think, in Miami.”

 

Zhou indeed overtook Albon by cutting the chicane at the 1st lap in Saudi Arabia.

[Mechanic44]

Risil, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:22, said:

The fact of it being the last lap puts the stewards in a difficult position. If you don't penalize the driver aren't you creating an incentive to cut the chicane on the last lap no matter what?

Remember Charles at Monza in 2019? He cut the chicane like twice and got warnings I’m sure he did. But that wasn’t the end of the race and he also got a warning for running Lewis off track.

Wonder who the stewards were that day

[Ivanhoe]

Mechanic44, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:28, said:

Remember Charles at Monza in 2019? He cut the chicane like twice and got warnings I’m sure he did. But that wasn’t the end of the race and he also got a warning for running Lewis off track.

Wonder who the stewards were that day

2019 is 3 years ago, reading the steward’s verdict they apparently are much stricter now on penalizing abuse of track limits (which has apparently also been made clear in several driver briefings). Which is what we all want, no? 

[Rediscoveryx]

Regarding the Leclerc penalty; the rule definitely should be that drivers who go off must incur a lasting disadvantage. The current should not gain a lasting advantage means that the clumsy driver retains his position nine times out of ten.

Something like ”if a competitor is less than 1,5 seconds behind he must be let through, and the time-loss in the sector should equal at least two seconds” would be fine.

Now having said that, even shitty rules should of course be enforced equally at all times.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 09 October 2022 - 15:34.

[Astandahl]

Ivanhoe, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:28, said:

Yeah, he dropped Schumacher outside of DRS range by cutting the chicane.

 

 

 

Zhou indeed overtook Albon by cutting the chicane at the 1st lap in Saudi Arabia.

So these two precedents are completely different to what happened here as Leclerc didn't gain an advantage from a lap time/on track position perspective.

 

Another clown like statement by the FIA.

Edited by Astandahl, 09 October 2022 - 15:36.

[Ivanhoe]

Astandahl, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:36, said:

So these two precedents are completely different to what happened here as Leclerc didn't gain an advantage from a lap time/on track position perspective.

 

Another clown like statement by the FIA.

Apparently the rule now is that if you go off track while defending and are still in front when you rejoin, you are deemed to have gained a lasting advantage.

[SophieB]

Ivanhoe, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:40, said:

Apparently the rule now is that if you go off track while defending and are still in front when you rejoin, you are deemed to have gained a lasting advantage.

And this makes sense but nevertheless this used to lead to incongruous stuff like drivers having to give places ‘back’ that they’d never actually won. Happened with Hulk and (I think) Perez in Singapore a few years back.

[Ivanhoe]

SophieB, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:42, said:

And this makes sense but nevertheless this used to lead to incongruous stuff like drivers having to give places ‘back’ that they’d never actually won. Happened with Hulk and (I think) Perez in Singapore a few years back.

New race directors, new rules apparently. I think this is a good change, you can’t just skip a chicane with another car in your gear box and come out still in front. Now let’s hope they will consistent in similar situations. Maybe they should just do it like they do in Monza at Rettifilo and put foam barriers in every chicane that makes you lose time if you outbreak yourself.

[Timorous]

Ivanhoe, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:49, said:

New race directors, new rules apparently. I think this is a good change, you can’t just skip a chicane with another car in your gear box and come out still in front. Now let’s hope they will consistent in similar situations. Maybe they should just do it like they do in Monza at Rettifilo and put foam barriers in every chicane that makes you lose time if you outbreak yourself.

Unless you are Perez where you can cut a chicane, overtake off track and then force the car you overtook off track as you rejoin.

Not saying Charles shouldn't have been penalised but the consistency is atrocious.

[Astandahl]

Timorous, on 09 Oct 2022 - 16:11, said:

Unless you are Perez where you can cut a chicane, overtake off track and then force the car you overtook off track as you rejoin.

Not saying Charles shouldn't have been penalised but the consistency is atrocious.

Also, Perez broke the rules 3 times in Singapore and was penalized only once . Wait no they gave him two different penalties for the same things This year is something else.

Edited by Astandahl, 09 October 2022 - 16:12.

[Jvr]

I think Leclerc penalty was spot on. 
 

Furthermore, I think that the same rule as in MotoGP i.e. if you leave the track without a valid reason on the final lap, you get an automatic one place grid drop should be adopted to F1 as well.

 

Now in F1 the track limits are monitored more closely and 5 sec penalties are given for multiple infringements during the race. But if you go off the track limits while defending or attacking on final lap without been forced out, you absolutely should be penalised for that.

Edited by Jvr, 09 October 2022 - 16:29.

[SenorSjon]

Astandahl, on 09 Oct 2022 - 15:20, said:

Did he gain time on the car behind / ahead?

It broke the DRS gap of the car following so it came under attack.

[SenorSjon]

Timorous, on 09 Oct 2022 - 16:11, said:

Unless you are Perez where you can cut a chicane, overtake off track and then force the car you overtook off track as you rejoin.

Not saying Charles shouldn't have been penalised but the consistency is atrocious.

You forgot about Leclerc holding onto that position outside the track, otherwise Perez would have never cut that chicane.

[Timorous]

SenorSjon, on 09 Oct 2022 - 16:59, said:

You forgot about Leclerc holding onto that position outside the track, otherwise Perez would have never cut that chicane.

Nope. Rewatch it, Charles was on track until Perez rejoined and forced him off. Charles also left space for Perez to stay on track on the inside.

Edit to add. Not that it wasn't a Penalty today though. Just that it should have been a penalty then as well.

Edited by Timorous, 09 October 2022 - 17:06.

[milestone 11]

SidepodDavid, on 09 Oct 2022 - 11:48, said:

Favouring Red Bull? Why because your favourite driver isn't receiving the preferential treatment he was getting last year? No soft penalties, gifted race leads, penalties not given for gaining an advantage.
 
Yes you are being hateful. You are being hateful towards the FIA, namely the staff that work within the FIA, because your favourite driver wasn't given the helping hand you wanted him to. Had Hamilton been crowned '21 champion, you would not have been acting like this, even though it would have been a win gifted by FIA interference and not earned.

Shockingly condescending final paragraph.