7358 replies to this topic

[alframsey]

SteveHam, on 22 Sept 2023 - 06:42, said:

Car looks a complete mess, in Lewis’s hands anyway.

Looks terrible doesn't it. Just wondering if Lewis is chansing set up too much in his pursuit for qualy speed and seems to be moving further away from George and the front runners? Don't want to cotastrophise but if this is another weekend where Lewis is off the pace on Saturday, what does that say? He's moved further away from the front runners as the sessions have gone on.

So frustrating to watch.

[milestone 11]

5th and 14th, that bloody man could not frustrate more if he tried.

[Pingu Pi]

The way I look at it, George is going 1 lap pace then looking to blend a balance back to race. Lewis is going race and trying to blend a balance back to 1 lap.

George is trusting track position is important (and can be over his teammate in particular when it comes to strategy) and Lewis is looking for his usual Sunday matters most and I'll beat you in the race.

Seems a very consistent theme but could just be the narrative I'm building, but George is savvy operator and his priority is Lewis whilst they are not fighting for wins/championships.

Edited by Pingu Pi, 22 September 2023 - 07:13.

[ConsiderAndGo]

milestone 11, on 22 Sept 2023 - 07:02, said:

5th and 14th, that bloody man could not frustrate more if he tried.

I’m sure just thinking about his seven titles will make you feel better.

[alframsey]

Pingu Pi, on 22 Sept 2023 - 07:13, said:

The way I look at it, George is going 1 lap pace then looking to blend a balance back to race. Lewis is going race and trying to blend a balance back to 1 lap.

George is trusting track position is important (and can be over his teammate in particular when it comes to strategy) and Lewis is looking for his usual Sunday matters most and I'll beat you in the race.

Seems a very consistent theme but could just be the narrative I'm building, but George is savvy operator and his priority is Lewis whilst they are not fighting for wins/championships.

I just think Lewis is genuinely struggling with single lap pace lately, what good is strong race pace at Suzuka if he qualifies outside the top 10? He does my head in sk much when he's in a period like this. I'm sure his race pace is going to be fine as always but the be that far off George (6 tenths) is very worrying.

[hamilton10000]

Terrible day.

Can easily see one of them (probably Lewis) going out in Q2.

Gonna have to make big changes overnight and hope for the best

[TomNokoe]

After Singapore and now a poor Friday, I'm worried Hamilton will focus too much on one lap pace.

From the tyre deg numbers this is probably the most race-pace focussed grand prix of the season so far.

[monolulu]

TomNokoe, on 22 Sept 2023 - 09:27, said:

After Singapore and now a poor Friday, I'm worried Hamilton will focus too much on one lap pace.

From the tyre deg numbers this is probably the most race-pace focussed grand prix of the season so far.

I think Lewis would like anything that would give him confidence in the car.

 

: Lewis Hamilton: “It was a very challenging day for us out there. I had a lack of confidence in the car and that contributed to our struggles. It was difficult to find the right balance and we didn't manage to get on top of it by the end of FP2. The tyres were overheating and that left us quite far off the top of the timing sheets.”

[Pingu Pi]

alframsey, on 22 Sept 2023 - 07:16, said:

I just think Lewis is genuinely struggling with single lap pace lately, what good is strong race pace at Suzuka if he qualifies outside the top 10? He does my head in sk much when he's in a period like this. I'm sure his race pace is going to be fine as always but the be that far off George (6 tenths) is very worrying.

 

Agreed, he is struggling to find the pace, generate the heat, whatever it is over one lap. I making a rather simplistic observation of where Lewis prioritises, his race pace has over the 15 years been rarely bad however his qualifying relative to teammates isn't supreme and i think this is why we see them so close.. which indicates to me he's always focussed on race pace over 1 lap and then dialled into 1 lap pace.

 

I don't really want to retread on the ground of comparing qualifying with his teammates before but it's very consistent. Wavy qualifying through a year (generally with teammates able to pip him to pole) but generally stellar race pace.

 

If we try to visualise that as a again a simplistic scale though. Say 1 is Qualfying and 10 is Race Pace... the reality is it's probably 4.9 for George and 5.1 for Lewis.

 

There's always the goal to absolutely nail both and he'll qualify ahead and have better race pace but I think there's factors of his teammate and his own performance over one lap and track specific preferences rather than him suddenly finding 'qualifying pace'.

Edited by Pingu Pi, 22 September 2023 - 12:01.

[peroa]

TomNokoe, on 22 Sept 2023 - 09:27, said:

After Singapore and now a poor Friday, I'm worried Hamilton will focus too much on one lap pace.

From the tyre deg numbers this is probably the most race-pace focussed grand prix of the season so far.

Yep, in general strong race pace should be priority except for a few tracks.

[alframsey]

TomNokoe, on 22 Sept 2023 - 09:27, said:

After Singapore and now a poor Friday, I'm worried Hamilton will focus too much on one lap pace.

From the tyre deg numbers this is probably the most race-pace focussed grand prix of the season so far.

I trust Lewis will be on the pace come race day but I worry his focus on one lap pace might result in going the other way, I've seen nothing to suggest he has found any solutions to the problem. Someone on sky said that he went out at the wrong time for his first flying lap and in reality he'd have been mucb closer to George had he gone out later, second flying lap they said something about his tyre deg restricting a representative time - there may be hope yet?

Its strange because in the race Lewis always is the quicker of the two Merc's but his Saturdays have gone to **** recently. I hope he can get on top of it because it is a worrying trend, especially if he is out paced by GR tomorrow.

[monolulu]

Lewis with new PU this weekend

[Dalton007]

Come Saturday morning Lewis should be closer to George. 

[P123]

From what George said it seems the surface has taken them by surprise (when will Merc not be surprised on a Friday?  ), so I expect there will be a lot of changes on the setup overnight following some sim work based on their data gathered today.

[jjcale]

Unusually, could not make time to watch any of the practice sessions .... so just saw the times .... and concluded - good! Merc are now so fast that they have gone back to sangbagging ...... then I got some time to look at this thread .... oh dear

[RacingSmoke]

Looking like it'll be a difficult weekend behind both Ferrari and McLaren. 

[jonklug]

I think Merc are still struggling to set up this car especially over one lap and it shows, but on Sundays they always come good so I wouldn't worry to much. However one added issue is that Ferrari seem to have gotten their act together and now have a car that's good over one lap but also quite fast during the race and easier on the tires than in the first half of the season. So it will be concerning for Mercedes in their fight for P2 in the Constructors, should be a close one till the end. 

[Speedometer]

This is interesting from Mark Hughes about Hamilton

 

"He spoke a little more in Suzuka about how the car seemed to have moved towards Russell in its one-lap balance recently and inevitably his hopes about next year’s car having traits more in line with what he needs."

 

MPH - Deflated Hamilton in search of Sainz's zing - Motor Sport Magazine

[Bliman]

Speedometer, on 22 Sept 2023 - 12:48, said:

This is interesting from Mark Hughes about Hamilton

"He spoke a little more in Suzuka about how the car seemed to have moved towards Russell in its one-lap balance recently and inevitably his hopes about next year’s car having traits more in line with what he needs."

MPH - Deflated Hamilton in search of Sainz's zing - Motor Sport Magazine

See I told you all this. It seems I was spot on.

[jonklug]

Quote

 

“It was a pretty bad day to be honest,” Hamilton said to F1TV. “A real struggle, we’re a long way off, two seconds off in the first session and over a second in the second [session].

 

“Just working away at trying to fix the car, fix the balance. It’s just figuring out what is wrong. 

 

“We were obviously much closer in the last race, but didn’t have any high-speed [corners] and nowhere near the speeds of the corners here. 

 

“Our car has, more often than not, been a little bit weaker in the high-speed corners, looking at places like Silverstone.

 

“An area where we need to work on is getting the car a little bit more in a sweet spot and not overheating our tyres as much.

 

“We’ll work on it overnight and try to turn it around [for Saturday]. We definitely won’t be winning this weekend but if I can move a little bit further up the order and so I can at least back up George [Russell], who did not have such a bad lap.”

[Speedometer]

Bliman, on 22 Sept 2023 - 13:08, said:

See I told you all this. It seems I was spot on.

Looks like Merc have done something to the car since the summer break which makes it harder, for Lewis, with his  driving style, to get on top of. Whatever they have done, it suits George's style more. That's what i glean from Hughes' statement.

[MasterOfCoin]

They should change the rear wing it's just not working....

[mclara]

I think they have bigger problems than just the rear wing.

If im not mistaken all the other front running teams do have medium downforce rear wings as well

[SteveHam]

MasterOfCoin, on 22 Sept 2023 - 13:51, said:

They should change the rear wing it's just not working....

I called this before practice even began. It just seems to make the whole car a mess. Even with George he looked all over the place in the first sector. I have no idea what setup they will go for but tyre deg is high because of the surface and I’d even go as far as stick the high downforce wing on. Half a second in 2 sector with the Medium DF isn’t right.

Blitz the first and second sectors and suffer in the 3rd but at least they should have a nice settled car and the tyres may get protected better.

[MasterOfCoin]

SteveHam, on 22 Sept 2023 - 14:15, said:

I called this before practice even began. It just seems to make the whole car a mess. Even with George he looked all over the place in the first sector. I have no idea what setup they will go for but tyre deg is high because of the surface and I’d even go as far as stick the high downforce wing on. Half a second in 2 sector with the Medium DF isn’t right.

Blitz the first and second sectors and suffer in the 3rd but at least they should have a nice settled car and the tyres may get protected better.

The Mclaren have a massive rear wing and they're quick, they should probably do the same....

[Dalton007]

Speedometer, on 22 Sept 2023 - 12:48, said:

This is interesting from Mark Hughes about Hamilton

 

"He spoke a little more in Suzuka about how the car seemed to have moved towards Russell in its one-lap balance recently and inevitably his hopes about next year’s car having traits more in line with what he needs."

 

MPH - Deflated Hamilton in search of Sainz's zing - Motor Sport Magazine

 

Interesting, and there was me thinking that Lewis can adapt to any car trait.

[Bliman]

Dalton007, on 22 Sept 2023 - 15:15, said:

Interesting, and there was me thinking that Lewis can adapt to any car trait.

There are very very few if any driver that can extract everything from every car. That is just not realistic.

[thefinalapex]

MasterOfCoin, on 22 Sept 2023 - 13:51, said:

They should change the rear wing it's just not working....

 

There were rumours that the flexi wing TD was aimed at the Mercedes rear wing, maybe thats why they are struggling?

[mclara]

thefinalapex, on 22 Sept 2023 - 15:22, said:

There were rumours that the flexi wing TD was aimed at the Mercedes rear wing, maybe thats why they are struggling?

Doesnt seem very likely and sounds more like a wild rumour.

They are just struggeling and the Ferrari and Mclaren have improved their cars alot recently.

 

Putting on a bigger rear wing might help but will leave them more vulnerable down the straights and they wont find 6 tenths in the first sector simply by putting on a bigger rear wing.

[TomNokoe]

Speedometer, on 22 Sept 2023 - 13:40, said:

Looks like Merc have done something to the car since the summer break which makes it harder, for Lewis, with his  driving style, to get on top of. Whatever they have done, it suits George's style more. That's what i glean from Hughes' statement.

I'm not sure. I don't think Hamilton's level has dropped, but rather Russell was underperforming earlier in the year, and he's now hitting his peaks a little more consistently, making it seem like Hamilton is struggling.

 

It's hard to judge because so many of the grand prix this year have been disrupted for one reason or another, weather, strategy, mistakes. Don't forget before the break Russell comfortably beat Hamilton in Silverstone but for the safety car.

Edited by TomNokoe, 22 September 2023 - 20:19.

[ForzaFormula]

At least Russell is pushing and trying, he will get better with experience such as Hamilton did after his early years.

 

Let's not forget that Hamilton was not the best with tyres in his early years but with experience he became a master at tyre management and managing races but in his early years he was also allot more "Hot" and had his moments of crashing and mistakes.

 

The difference is Russell has never had cars like Hamilton did from the get go to be able to challenge and win titles, the only time it worked for him to have a chance of winning was last year,  and again this year he is showing immense pace and with experience he will cut the mistakes out a long with tyre management skills, to be at least on the pace of Hamilton is something never mind showing flashes of being faster.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 22 September 2023 - 17:59.

[w1Y]

I think its clear lewis tries to ensure good race pace but I think that is because he was at merc from 2013 of which that tyre muncher has been engrained into Mercedes and lewis.

So they focus on tyre management and race pace. OK when you have a stable.enough platform to push in qualy but in this car its a disaster.

Problem is its.damage limitation every race.

[gillesfan76]

Dalton007, on 22 Sept 2023 - 15:15, said:

Interesting, and there was me thinking that Lewis can adapt to any car trait.

 

 

Bliman, on 22 Sept 2023 - 15:17, said:

There are very very few if any driver that can extract everything from every car. That is just not realistic.

 

The truth likely lays somewhere in between these two extremes. A great driver, for whom the car’s characteristics doesn’t suit their natural driving style, should be able to adapt to any car but also it’s strange to expect them to be quicker or perhaps even as quick as another top tier driver for who that car characteristics match well with their natural driving style. However it’s equally not correct to think it’s ok that the driver is 4 tenths away. I would expect a great driver to be a tenth away, give or take depending on the track.

 

I am still of the opinion that Lewis can drive any car but it seems like this car has a very narrow window and he’s still trying to force it too much to give him what he needs to get the maximum out of his particular strengths. He’s not happy to just match or be a tenth off George’s times and wants to be ahead or even challenge at the front. But what good is that if that process leads him to be further behind in qualifying more times than not?

 

I don’t think what Lewis is trying to do is unique to him. I think we actually saw the same with Max earlier this season and in fact he pretty much said the same. Earlier in the season when Checo was matching and sometimes a bit quicker even, Max said he and his engineer tried some setup experiments. Max said that they found a setup that led to his current dominance https://www.motorspo...nance/10512534/

All credit to Max, that he tried various settings and things during the Baku race that gave him some clues for experimenting with setup later that led to the breakthrough. But it also seems that the RB19 is responsive to it with a wider operating window. The team and engineers understand the RB19 well which supports this. Finally, being paired up with a mid-tier driver in Checo does no harm to Max’s experimenting. So all combined, his experimenting makes a lot of sense. Not just with the hindsight of the breakthrough and results, but simply makes sense and he had to do that because he’s only competing against his team mate so needs to find something that works for him to be ahead.

 

In contrast, it seems to me that the engineers don’t quite understand the W14 and coupled with perhaps a narrow operating window. Lewis then trying to force it to suit what he does best doesn’t look like it’s bearing fruit as easily. Coupled with a very quick team mate who he’s not going to be able to match if he goes down the wrong setup rabbit hole with his experiments. But at the same time I don’t see it as necessarily a bad thing because he can potentially learn valuable things from it that could help the team and him for next season. Probably what he’s doing and being far behind his team mate is affecting mainly his fans.

[Huffer]

Bliman, on 23 Sept 2023 - 05:31, said:

But he is also to focused on Hamilton.

 

This is the important part. I think Russel's going to do what he usually does and completely screw the pooch because he is always too focused on trying to beat Hamilton. So he'll either total the car ( again ) or end up bashing into somebody because he's compromised his race, allowing a driver behind to go for his position.

 

He needs to be more like Hamilton - focus on his own race and the rest will come. Russel wants to be the giant slayer but he keeps on hitting himself in the face with his own sling. 

[SteveHam]

Really horrible how Mercedes have gone away from being one of the best in the fast/medium speed corners to only slow speed it seems.

When they stick their high downforce rear wing on the car looks really good. I’m hoping the race pace will be better than what the one lap pace will be. I do think 8tenths is around the gap here in Suzuka.

[RoryFormula1]

This car is terrible by Mercedes standards. What is the team doing

[Bendo]

Crap car but can everyone stop being a drama queen over practice times?

We get it you need a stick to neat Hamilton with, but it just makes you look silly.

[mclara]

Dalton007, on 22 Sept 2023 - 15:15, said:

Interesting, and there was me thinking that Lewis can adapt to any car trait.

Seems to me that he is doing just fine. Considering his team mate

[TomNokoe]

Lol so typical Hamilton puts 0.3s on Russell but they're next to each other on the grid.

Still worried LH has screwed himself with setup but let's see.

[thefinalapex]

Bendo, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:17, said:

Crap car but can everyone stop being a drama queen over practice times?

We get it you need a stick to neat Hamilton with, but it just makes you look silly.

I only seen posts that Hamilton was focusing on racepace, wich comments are you referring too?

[SteveHam]

TomNokoe, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:18, said:

Lol so typical Hamilton puts 0.3s on Russell but they're next to each other on the grid.

Still worried LH has screwed himself with setup but let's see.

Or maybe you could just say Lewis did a good job? Hard I know.

[TomNokoe]

SteveHam, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:21, said:

Or maybe you could just say Lewis did a good job? Hard I know.

Let's see tomorrow, long race!

[gillesfan76]

If Lewis just sticks with the setup that gets the car thereabouts and feels ok balance wise, and just drives it then his times will be fine. As I said, I think he’s an adaptable enough driver but he needs to give up polishing the tu*d. Just put the car where it belongs.

[micktosin]

In my opinion, I think the biggest issue is wind tunnel uncorrelation or poor interpretation of it. Most of their updates has been underwhelming.

Edited by micktosin, 23 September 2023 - 07:24.

[gillesfan76]

SteveHam, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:21, said:

Or maybe you could just say Lewis did a good job? Hard I know.

 

I don’t think Tom was saying anything otherwise. Perhaps you’ve misunderstood him.

[Boxerevo]

gillesfan76, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:22, said:

If Lewis just sticks with the setup that gets the car thereabouts and feels ok balance wise, and just drives it then his times will be fine. As I said, I think he’s an adaptable enough driver but he needs to give up polishing the tu*d. Just put the car where it belongs.

Agree. Gap today was beautiful.

[gillesfan76]

TomNokoe, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:18, said:

Lol so typical Hamilton puts 0.3s on Russell but they're next to each other on the grid.

Still worried LH has screwed himself with setup but let's see.

 

I don’t think he has and I don’t think he’s compromised race setup heavily for qualifying. I think he’s just aligned his setup with what George was running and where the car works instead of searching for something to get more tenths out of than what the car has in it. That’s not to say it’s going to be great on its tyres tomorrow but I don’t think it’s going to be any worse than the setup George is running. But of course tomorrow will tell all.

[RoryFormula1]

micktosin, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:23, said:

In my opinion, I think the biggest issue is wind tunnel uncorrelation or poor interpretation of it. Most of their updates has been underwhelming.

I would just love to be a fly on the wall. I’m sure there’s a weekly status update with mgmt and surely someone is asking why McLaren has leapfrogged them and now Ferrari is back in it. Are department reps just reply with “I don’t know”

[gillesfan76]

Boxerevo, on 23 Sept 2023 - 07:25, said:

Agree. Gap today was beautiful.

 

Yeah but to be fair I don’t think that was reflective of their respective performances. I would say the real gap is probably 1 to 2 tenths. Lewis had an extra Q3 lap on used tyres to get a feel and ran later with the track being just that bit more rubbered. It’s possible that the wind picking up harmed Lewis a little more but difficult to say how much one factor favoured and another detracted. But personally I’m of the opinion that the real gap was 1 to 2 tenths difference here, which is still good for Lewis to outperform in qualifying.

[Pingu Pi]

Lewis has given himself a really good opportunity to be racy tomorrow if he can look after the tires. Could be a very interesting or very boring race if he gets off the line ahead of George and is able to just focus on the field ahead.