4848 replies to this topic

[Rumblestrip]

Boing 2, on 28 May 2023 - 11:56, said:

I've read some comments about how the Red Bull was more level when lifted by the crane whereas the Merc tilted down at the rear meaning the Mercs are running much more rear weight bias but that doesn't make sense to me. We know the Mercedes drivers are sitting further forward than the Red Bill drivers which surely means the whole roll hoop structure is further forward too, that alone would lead to the rear end dropping when lifted in my view.

 

I'd agree. I thought there was a fairly small window for the overall weight bias anyway so wouldn't expect that to be the major difference. Like you say, the positioning of the roll hoop is far more important.

[Rumblestrip]

IceSpeed, on 28 May 2023 - 11:58, said:

👍 watched another interview and you are right. Looks like he made changes that helped S2. He mentioned having trouble with tire warm up in one of the interviews so assumed it was related to race setup.

 

I could be wrong but I thought the tyre warm-up issue was just down to trying to get space on the track and slowing down on the prep lap.

[P123]

Rumblestrip, on 28 May 2023 - 12:01, said:

I could be wrong but I thought the tyre warm-up issue was just down to trying to get space on the track and slowing down on the prep lap.

 

I think they were playing about a bit.  There was one outlap from Lewis that was fairly rapid (think when he was slightly out of synch in Q3), and another of the runs George seemed to do two warm up laps (though may have been forced by an error or traffic).  From the opening laps on fresh tyres in Q1 and Q2 George had a good few tenths on Lewis, whose car looked very oversteery.

[MortenF1]

That 1:15.650 on the first full flying lap - Wow! That must’ve been a 10/10-lap!

Very intrigued to see what the car can do next weekend.

[rog]

They were clearly behind Aston/Alonso and RBR/Verstappen of course, although the real pace was a bit masked behind Ocon most of the race I think. We will see the real pace on a real race track....unless it rains.

[alframsey]

I am quite pleased with the result today, much better than I expected before the weekend. I’m glad to see and hear the drivers making positive noises about the car too. I don’t really know how much they will improve over the season but the car is clearly easier to handle for Lewis at least, he looked like he was more comfortable pushing than last season and before this weekend.

I do expect them to be better in Spain even though I don’t know why but I do think it will be closer in qualy and much closer in the race. Lewis for the win? Hahah

I’d be chuffed with being clearly ahead of Ferrari and closer to red bull in race trim, scrapping with AM on outright pace.

[dave34m]

OO7, on 27 May 2023 - 11:54, said:

 

https://pbs.twimg.co...&name=4096x4096

 

 

Andrian Newey  "Pfft, do you even Aero bro"

[Bliman]

dave34m, on 28 May 2023 - 23:40, said:

Andrian Newey  "Pfft, do you even Aero bro"

 

Where are the photos of the Red Bull?

[dave34m]

Bliman, on 28 May 2023 - 23:58, said:

Where are the photos of the Red Bull?

The red bull photos are amazing, with these detailed photos of what they have done under the car hopefully teams will be able to close the gap to RBR 

[mclara]

dave34m, on 29 May 2023 - 01:24, said:

The red bull photos are amazing, with these detailed photos of what they have done under the car hopefully teams will be able to close the gap to RBR 

 

dave34m, on 29 May 2023 - 01:24, said:

The red bull photos are amazing, with these detailed photos of what they have done under the car hopefully teams will be able to close the gap to RBR 

Here is a good comparison of the floors: https://www.youtube....h?v=P70Cai0qNtM

 

There was some photos of the RB`s floor last year. Merc didnt copy it straight away for obvious reasons

[renzmann]

mclara, on 29 May 2023 - 04:40, said:

Here is a good comparison of the floors: https://www.youtube....h?v=P70Cai0qNtM

 

There was some photos of the RB`s floor last year. Merc didnt copy it straight away for obvious reasons

 

Could you elaborate on what makes it obvious? I'm sure you're right, because I know very little about floors, but I reckon the floor is rather independent from the rest of the car. You wouldn't have to rethink the whole car in order to improve on the floor, no? The W14 doesn't look like the RB18, but still Merc pretty much copied the RB18's floor.

[mclara]

renzmann, on 29 May 2023 - 07:36, said:

Could you elaborate on what makes it obvious? I'm sure you're right, because I know very little about floors, but I reckon the floor is rather independent from the rest of the car. You wouldn't have to rethink the whole car in order to improve on the floor, no? The W14 doesn't look like the RB18, but still Merc pretty much copied the RB18's floor.

The floor works with rest of the car but I think it has more to do with the way mercedes approached these regulations, regarding floor perfomance.

And as it was said in the video (or it might have been another), Merc had a lot of issues to sort out and starting to copy a different floor while doing that is not a good idea.

[gillesfan76]

With the previous floor, it looks like Mercedes went for a floor design that produced the downforce location, or aerodynamic centre of pressure as the aero guys like to call it, quite far forward. Not like towards the front wings kind of forward but far forward relative to Red Bull. So basically the centre of pressure or where the downforce was being produced was roughly mid-point of the car. In comparison the Red Bull’s was further rearward.

 

In theory, the Merc attempt makes sense. Having the floor downforce roughly in the centre of the wheelbase, give or take, distributes the downforce well over the front and rear wheels and also allows for better adjustability of aero balance. Because with the floor downforce in the centre, only small adjustments of wing trim are needed on the front wings and rear wing to shift the aero balance without changing the overall drag and downforce too much. For example, consider if the floor aero was like the Red Bull and produced far more rearwards. Now if you go to a track that needs is front limited and you need far more front downforce, you will need to increase the crank up the front wing elements while trimming out the rear wing and beam wing in order to make a meaningful shift forward of the downforce centre of pressure. Whereas if the centre of pressure was already midway between the front and rear wheels, a smaller shift is needed hence much smaller adjustments to the front and/or rear & beam wings. So I think Merc’s logic was sound.

 

The big problem for Mercedes is that it just didn’t work on track like that because they couldn’t effectively seal the floor. So under braking and the trim change of the car, the front wing gets closer to the ground and downforce increases on it, while the rear lifts up and as they can’t seal the floor, they shed more rear downforce. That is, their aero design coupled with less anti-dive suspensions means they trim nose down more under brakes, front downforce increases, rear downforce sheds and all this happening when their centre of pressure is already midway to start off with on the level car, so the ensuing shift to the centre of pressure is quite significant. No rear stability on turn in. So basically rear limited in turning in. Once turned in and the driver gets on the power, the acceleration causes rear suspension to squat, front wing lifts up, rear squats down, rear downforce comes back on while front downforce sheds, and now suddenly they’re front limited and having understeer trying to put the power down. Lewis described this quite clearly in some of his comments and he said it’s the opposite of what you want to happen.

 

So Red Bull has really nailed this. They’ve got a bit of anti-dive and anti-squat in their suspension to control the trim change under braking and acceleration. Then their centre of pressure is rearward with level trim, but under braking as the front suspension compresses a bit, the front wing goes down a bit, the rear goes up a bit (but floor still staying sealed) so the aero balance shifts slightly more forward but not a huge amount and is a good balance between front downforce for turn in while still having enough rear stability. The one potential negative is after turn in, mid corner when getting on the power, then the Red Bull could experience a bit of understeer because the centre of pressure is rearwards, so the driving technique will require them to square the corner off rather than spend too much time with lateral G. Though I think even this is minimised anyway because they have rear anti-squat in their suspension geometry so the it’s not like the centre of pressure shifts all the way back. I also wonder if they’re running a more cranked front wing to get as much downforce as they can. i know in 2022 Max complained early in the season that understeer was limiting him so clearly Red Bull found a way to solve this.

 

So it will be interesting to see how Mercedes progresses with this because they’ve clearly gone with the same aero direction with the new W14 judging by the floor and where the centre of pressure is far more rearwards now, similar to Red Bull. The problem for Mercedes is that there are many other elements that are compromised, likely their entire weight distribution, the rear suspension they can’t change (does it have the right amount of anti-squat needed?). So it really does look like the main purpose of this season is to understand the car within the limitations they have and that’s what the team is openly saying and trying to temper expectations. Because when you look at the Red Bull refined over almost 2 years and the amount of detail in the floor now on very well designed chassis base of weight distribution and suspension geometry, the new W14 is still a world away.

[mclara]

gillesfan76, on 29 May 2023 - 15:33, said:

With the previous floor, it looks like Mercedes went for a floor design that produced the downforce location, or aerodynamic centre of pressure as the aero guys like to call it, quite far forward. Not like towards the front wings kind of forward but far forward relative to Red Bull. So basically the centre of pressure or where the downforce was being produced was roughly mid-point of the car. In comparison the Red Bull’s was further rearward.

 

In theory, the Merc attempt makes sense. Having the floor downforce roughly in the centre of the wheelbase, give or take, distributes the downforce well over the front and rear wheels and also allows for better adjustability of aero balance. Because with the floor downforce in the centre, only small adjustments of wing trim are needed on the front wings and rear wing to shift the aero balance without changing the overall drag and downforce too much. For example, consider if the floor aero was like the Red Bull and produced far more rearwards. Now if you go to a track that needs is front limited and you need far more front downforce, you will need to increase the crank up the front wing elements while trimming out the rear wing and beam wing in order to make a meaningful shift forward of the downforce centre of pressure. Whereas if the centre of pressure was already midway between the front and rear wheels, a smaller shift is needed hence much smaller adjustments to the front and/or rear & beam wings. So I think Merc’s logic was sound.

 

The big problem for Mercedes is that it just didn’t work on track like that because they couldn’t effectively seal the floor. So under braking and the trim change of the car, the front wing gets closer to the ground and downforce increases on it, while the rear lifts up and as they can’t seal the floor, they shed more rear downforce. That is, their aero design coupled with less anti-dive suspensions means they trim nose down more under brakes, front downforce increases, rear downforce sheds and all this happening when their centre of pressure is already midway to start off with on the level car, so the ensuing shift to the centre of pressure is quite significant. No rear stability on turn in. So basically rear limited in turning in. Once turned in and the driver gets on the power, the acceleration causes rear suspension to squat, front wing lifts up, rear squats down, rear downforce comes back on while front downforce sheds, and now suddenly they’re front limited and having understeer trying to put the power down. Lewis described this quite clearly in some of his comments and he said it’s the opposite of what you want to happen.

 

So Red Bull has really nailed this. They’ve got a bit of anti-dive and anti-squat in their suspension to control the trim change under braking and acceleration. Then their centre of pressure is rearward with level trim, but under braking as the front suspension compresses a bit, the front wing goes down a bit, the rear goes up a bit (but floor still staying sealed) so the aero balance shifts slightly more forward but not a huge amount and is a good balance between front downforce for turn in while still having enough rear stability. The one potential negative is after turn in, mid corner when getting on the power, then the Red Bull could experience a bit of understeer because the centre of pressure is rearwards, so the driving technique will require them to square the corner off rather than spend too much time with lateral G. Though I think even this is minimised anyway because they have rear anti-squat in their suspension geometry so the it’s not like the centre of pressure shifts all the way back. I also wonder if they’re running a more cranked front wing to get as much downforce as they can. i know in 2022 Max complained early in the season that understeer was limiting him so clearly Red Bull found a way to solve this.

 

So it will be interesting to see how Mercedes progresses with this because they’ve clearly gone with the same aero direction with the new W14 judging by the floor and where the centre of pressure is far more rearwards now, similar to Red Bull. The problem for Mercedes is that there are many other elements that are compromised, likely their entire weight distribution, the rear suspension they can’t change (does it have the right amount of anti-squat needed?). So it really does look like the main purpose of this season is to understand the car within the limitations they have and that’s what the team is openly saying and trying to temper expectations. Because when you look at the Red Bull refined over almost 2 years and the amount of detail in the floor now on very well designed chassis base of weight distribution and suspension geometry, the new W14 is still a world away.

 

They certainly have a big task in front of them and it might now be possible to get on par with RB before the next reg change.

It will take some times before Merc can say they understand the concept they are working towards and to be able to bring performance. In the meantime RB will still improve.

There will always be small bits here and there they will figure out by looking at the other cars (RB and AM) but it might take too much time before they can develop it and bring it to the track.

 

I found this comparison picture on F1technical forum:

https://i.ibb.co/BgB...9-083402-01.jpg

 

Gives us a good understanding of the difference in floor development and how Merc kind of missed the goal with their concept. Floor performance is such a crucial part of this era of regulations.

Would also be nice to get a picture of the AM floor.

 

One curve ball could be that Pirelli might introduce some new tires that brings the top runners together as the conservative compounds (they want to limit the speed and load on the tire) usually has a bigger impact on the fastest car.

[gillesfan76]

mclara, on 29 May 2023 - 17:14, said:

They certainly have a big task in front of them and it might now be possible to get on par with RB before the next reg change.

It will take some times before Merc can say they understand the concept they are working towards and to be able to bring performance. In the meantime RB will still improve.

There will always be small bits here and there they will figure out by looking at the other cars (RB and AM) but it might take too much time before they can develop it and bring it to the track.

 

I found this comparison picture on F1technical forum:

https://i.ibb.co/BgB...9-083402-01.jpg

 

Gives us a good understanding of the difference in floor development and how Merc kind of missed the goal with their concept. Floor performance is such a crucial part of this era of regulations.

Would also be nice to get a picture of the AM floor.

 

One curve ball could be that Pirelli might introduce some new tires that brings the top runners together as the conservative compounds (they want to limit the speed and load on the tire) usually has a bigger impact on the fastest car.

 

The difference in sculpting and refinement of the W14 vs RB19 is massive. The RB19 floor looks incredible that it’s difficult to imagine how they could improve it much more, but I guess that there may actually be parts of it that don’t perfectly correlate on track and Red Bull will work towards refining that further. But I would expect (hope!) that the gains are marginal.

 

I think Merc’s original concept had a lot of logic to it. The biggest flaw is that they completely underestimated how difficult it would be to seal the floor and coupled with their suspension design and central location of floor downforce, how much that location moves forward and back in a dynamic sense under braking and acceleration. Then with Lewis sitting too far forward for his liking, he’s not able to feel this moving of downforce and can’t adjust for it. The proverbial swiss cheese of stuff ups. With the new floor, the cockpit position is still the same and he’s still seated too far forward but at least with the new floor the initial impressions from Monaco are that the centre of downforce pressure moving dynamically has reduced so while his feel may not be much better, his dependence on that feel is reduced. His driving at Monaco really reflected that, he looked “on it” and attacking a bit more like his pre-2022 style. But Monaco isn’t a great track to make those conclusions so I’m hoping those impressions are confirmed at Barcelona……..

 

Regarding the new tyres that Pirelli may introduce, I’m not sure why they would introduce conservative compounds if the cars are getting faster and they have to supply for the least common denominator, which in terms of safety is not the slowest car but rather the fastest car - the Red Bull. So the way I see it, and I may be wrong, I actually think it would suit the fastest car as they build tyres that can withstand the loads imposed on it by the RB19. The cars with less downforce may find it more difficult to switch the tyres on and their aero model may not work with the tyres as the tyre deforms less than before. But who knows.

[mclara]

gillesfan76, on 30 May 2023 - 04:33, said:

The difference in sculpting and refinement of the W14 vs RB19 is massive. The RB19 floor looks incredible that it’s difficult to imagine how they could improve it much more, but I guess that there may actually be parts of it that don’t perfectly correlate on track and Red Bull will work towards refining that further. But I would expect (hope!) that the gains are marginal.

 

I think Merc’s original concept had a lot of logic to it. The biggest flaw is that they completely underestimated how difficult it would be to seal the floor and coupled with their suspension design and central location of floor downforce, how much that location moves forward and back in a dynamic sense under braking and acceleration. Then with Lewis sitting too far forward for his liking, he’s not able to feel this moving of downforce and can’t adjust for it. The proverbial swiss cheese of stuff ups. With the new floor, the cockpit position is still the same and he’s still seated too far forward but at least with the new floor the initial impressions from Monaco are that the centre of downforce pressure moving dynamically has reduced so while his feel may not be much better, his dependence on that feel is reduced. His driving at Monaco really reflected that, he looked “on it” and attacking a bit more like his pre-2022 style. But Monaco isn’t a great track to make those conclusions so I’m hoping those impressions are confirmed at Barcelona……..

 

Regarding the new tyres that Pirelli may introduce, I’m not sure why they would introduce conservative compounds if the cars are getting faster and they have to supply for the least common denominator, which in terms of safety is not the slowest car but rather the fastest car - the Red Bull. So the way I see it, and I may be wrong, I actually think it would suit the fastest car as they build tyres that can withstand the loads imposed on it by the RB19. The cars with less downforce may find it more difficult to switch the tyres on and their aero model may not work with the tyres as the tyre deforms less than before. But who knows.

 

The problem is that Merc need to have the tools and understanding to be able to build such a floor. Not the excact same but that works in the same way. But before they can start exploring they have to make sure they know what they are doing. And that is where they are now.

So the task is pretty big. Im sure RB will improve going forward.

 

Merc inital concept was probably logical but didnt work because of porpoising. I remember reading an article about how difficult it is to seal the floor when you have sidepods that doesnt create a strong outwash. Its possible but gets difficult when you cant run the car at the height you want.

 

With regards to the tires I was mostly just making a wild guess. Since nobody can know who will benefit if Pirelli introduces new tires. I dont know if iits even been decided that they will introduce new tires. But it is also very likely that we get a 2013 situation where the car with the most downforce benefits.

[BoxOpposite44]

Andrew Shovlin: "In terms of why have we now moved away from it, fundamentally we have had a good go at that [zero sidepod] design. There were elements of it that were useful but you cannot fully understand the benefits of another concept unless you put it on the tunnel and you work and work on it for months. You never put these things on and you get the instant gain.

 

"So really it was just that acceptance that we have had a good go at this concept. It is not delivering the development rate that we are seeing from some of our competitors."

 

https://www.pitdebri...painful-process

[MasterOfCoin]

gillesfan76, on 30 May 2023 - 04:33, said:

The difference in sculpting and refinement of the W14 vs RB19 is massive. The RB19 floor looks incredible that it’s difficult to imagine how they could improve it much more, but I guess that there may actually be parts of it that don’t perfectly correlate on track and Red Bull will work towards refining that further. But I would expect (hope!) that the gains are marginal.

 

I think Merc’s original concept had a lot of logic to it. The biggest flaw is that they completely underestimated how difficult it would be to seal the floor and coupled with their suspension design and central location of floor downforce, how much that location moves forward and back in a dynamic sense under braking and acceleration. Then with Lewis sitting too far forward for his liking, he’s not able to feel this moving of downforce and can’t adjust for it. The proverbial swiss cheese of stuff ups. With the new floor, the cockpit position is still the same and he’s still seated too far forward but at least with the new floor the initial impressions from Monaco are that the centre of downforce pressure moving dynamically has reduced so while his feel may not be much better, his dependence on that feel is reduced. His driving at Monaco really reflected that, he looked “on it” and attacking a bit more like his pre-2022 style. But Monaco isn’t a great track to make those conclusions so I’m hoping those impressions are confirmed at Barcelona……..

 

Regarding the new tyres that Pirelli may introduce, I’m not sure why they would introduce conservative compounds if the cars are getting faster and they have to supply for the least common denominator, which in terms of safety is not the slowest car but rather the fastest car - the Red Bull. So the way I see it, and I may be wrong, I actually think it would suit the fastest car as they build tyres that can withstand the loads imposed on it by the RB19. The cars with less downforce may find it more difficult to switch the tyres on and their aero model may not work with the tyres as the tyre deforms less than before. But who knows.

It's kind of disappointing that we've had all these images of the RB's floor, and they couldn't come up with something that was slightly similar..... 

[gillesfan76]

MasterOfCoin, on 31 May 2023 - 13:46, said:

It's kind of disappointing that we've had all these images of the RB's floor, and they couldn't come up with something that was slightly similar..... 

 

But the images of RB19 only became available in Monaco after Checo binned it. Before that, they would’ve only had the RB18 which floor was nowhere near as complex as the RB19’s. The W14’s floor is actually quite similar to the RB18. Yes it’s a bit less complex than the RB18’s floor too, but there’s no point just adding complexity or copying for the sake of it. They’re just trying to baseline things for now.

 

Also complexity doesn’t necessarily mean more downforce. Something else is being done with the RB19. Let’s not forget that even Ferrari with their very simple looking floor was challenging the RB18 last season and is still quick in qualifying this season. So it’s not like the simple floors are necessarily producing less downforce. In fact the porpoising of last year, which the W13 suffered immensely, is actually a result of too much downforce, car gets sucked down so low that it chokes the venturi off. So until the point it got choked off, the downforce was plenty. The RB19’s floor complexity probably lends to its efficiency where it’s producing enough stable downforce but without so much drag.

[gillesfan76]

BoxOpposite44, on 30 May 2023 - 19:56, said:

Andrew Shovlin: "In terms of why have we now moved away from it, fundamentally we have had a good go at that [zero sidepod] design. There were elements of it that were useful but you cannot fully understand the benefits of another concept unless you put it on the tunnel and you work and work on it for months. You never put these things on and you get the instant gain.

 

"So really it was just that acceptance that we have had a good go at this concept. It is not delivering the development rate that we are seeing from some of our competitors."

 

https://www.pitdebri...painful-process

 

Articles like this are somewhat annoying. Shovlin never mentions sidepods. The article author however takes Shovlin’s comments about concept and marries them to the “zeropod” and assumes that is the concept. I think Mercedes has been consistently clear that the floor is their concept right from the beginning. I’m not claiming that the “zeropod” had no influence on that floor concept. Perhaps it did, but it does not necessarily mean that it is the concept.

[Clatter]

MasterOfCoin, on 31 May 2023 - 13:46, said:

It's kind of disappointing that we've had all these images of the RB's floor, and they couldn't come up with something that was slightly similar.....

The aero of all the different parts don't work in isolation. So you can't just copy something and expect it to sort your issues. Budget and resource limits will make it harder to take another teams concept from a picture to the car.

[kumo7]

gillesfan76, on 31 May 2023 - 15:24, said:

Articles like this are somewhat annoying. Shovlin never mentions sidepods. The article author however takes Shovlin’s comments about concept and marries them to the “zeropod” and assumes that is the concept. I think Mercedes has been consistently clear that the floor is their concept right from the beginning. I’m not claiming that the “zeropod” had no influence on that floor concept. Perhaps it did, but it does not necessarily mean that it is the concept.

It was in 2022, when this zero side pods concept was discussed. I recall the hours quickly moved on to indeed none of such concept at the 2023 prep.
Having said this, I must say that all part of body work has influence on other parts.

[Beamer]

Really impressed with the level of analysis some are able of with just a few pictures of a floor....

[Hyatt]

[gillesfan76]

Beamer, on 31 May 2023 - 17:25, said:

Really impressed with the level of analysis some are able of with just a few pictures of a floor....

 

I understand what you’re attempting to say in a seemingly passive-aggressive way….and I think the correct word is speculation rather than analysis. But it’s not just from a few pictures of floors, or even primarily from those. Rather the comments made by the team, drivers, and other aerodynamicists. There are some key pieces of information that reasonably clear. I won’t call them facts because unless we get an open-book treatise directly from a team itself, nothing is 100%. But we know some things:

- The venturi profile of the floors of some cars is well known, including the approximate centre of pressure in relation to the wheelbase. This is made available from photos not just from recent Monaco but also photos of mechanics carrying the floor, especially of the 2022 cars. Red Bull centre of pressure is quite rearward, based on the narrowing of the venturi tunnel as that narrow part is where the suction is occurring. The W13 and early W14 had that further forward, closer to the middle of the car. The Monaco update W14(B) showed it further rearwards, more similar to the RB design.

The basic concept of a venturi and floor centre of pressure isn’t complicated. The principle is simply that air flowing through a tunnel maintains its mass so if the tunnel expands, the air slows down and as the tunnel constricts, the air speeds up, in order to preserve the mass flow rate. The slower the air, the higher the pressure, and the faster the air, the lower the pressure i.e vacuum created which translates into downforce. How the venturi applies to the ground effect cars:

https://i.postimg.cc...A9-E81396-E.jpg

 

The centre of pressure on the ground effect/venturi floors is pretty clear from the visual of the ground effect car drawing above. Put simply, from the photos of the floors that we have seen of RB18/19 and W13/W14, we can see that narrowing is substantially rearwards on the RB vs the W13/W14, and also that the W14(B) has now moved that narrow section further rearward relative to the W14.

 

- Lewis described what was happening with the early W14. He said that when he braked, the centre of pressure was too far forward and the rear was unstable. Then mid corner it would transition quickly rearwards and cause understeer. So on the W14 at least, we know the aero balance was shifting between corner entry and mid corner. Hamilton’s exact comments:

“When you're driving, you feel like you're sitting on the front wheels, which is one of the worst feelings to feel when you're driving a car. What that does is it just really changes the attitude of the car and how you perceive its movement. It makes it harder to predict compared to when you're further back and you're sitting closer, more centre. It's just something I really struggle with. On top of that, we have an aero characteristic, which is too forwards rather than being rear sat down as you begin to turn and coming off the brakes then moving rearward. Or the other way around: we have one that's very forwards, very much on the nose early on and then shifts later on. So, it's doing the opposite of what we want and that's what we trying to fix.”

 

So I don’t think it’s mere wanton speculation to take some key pieces of information and then speculate on the respective concepts that Mercedes and Red Bull were trying to achieve, and what may have not gone as imagined for the former while the latter has nailed it, relatively speaking.

I understand it maybe seems frivolous to some, but it is the car thread and some of us find such speculation and discussion interesting. I understand your point though, none of us are working in F1, let alone the specific teams in question, and we’re not even aerodynamicists so I think the main takeaway is not to take any views, including our own ones, too seriously. If Mercedes own engineers along with 95% of the engineers in the other teams except for Red Bull have got it wrong, it’s an almost certainty that pretty much everyone else has barely scratched the surface in their understanding of the details and complexities of the aerodynamics. But while that awareness underpins everything, it’s also true that many of us have varying experiences and reasonable intelligence to be able to make some educated guesses and I think that is perfectly fine. There are many people on this forum who have significant racing car and racing experience, to varying degrees. I personally own a number of dedicated race cars and well involved in the engineering and setup side. Doesn’t make me an expert on the technical F1 side by any means.

Edited by gillesfan76, 01 June 2023 - 05:17.

[gillesfan76]

Rob Marshall is massive coup for McLaren. Disappointing that Mercedes wasn’t able to lure him away from Red Bull like McLaren did. Perhaps it was an error by Mercedes trying to lure Newey instead which was very low odds and would’ve potentially made any subsequent attempt for Marshall seem like they were going for second best which is not something an engineer of his calibre would wish to feel. Or could simply also be that he never considered Mercedes in his radar as he may have perceived that as a ‘burning bridge’ slap in the face to Red Bull given the recent acrimony between the team heads and the move to McLaren was a far more diplomatically palatable option for he and Red Bull. In any case, well done to McLaren and I think he will make a difference there.

[mclara]

Beamer, on 31 May 2023 - 17:25, said:

Really impressed with the level of analysis some are able of with just a few pictures of a floor....

 

People are only making guesses or educated guesses if they have some sort of knowledge about deisgning and building race cars.

Nobody knows if these guesses are correct besides those who have designed the particular floor or parts.

 

Whats most important to remeber is that we are all just speculating and nobody is projecting their analysis as the truth.

 

Helps alot if one remembers this....
 

[mclara]

gillesfan76, on 01 Jun 2023 - 09:52, said:

Rob Marshall is massive coup for McLaren. Disappointing that Mercedes wasn’t able to lure him away from Red Bull like McLaren did. Perhaps it was an error by Mercedes trying to lure Newey instead which was very low odds and would’ve potentially made any subsequent attempt for Marshall seem like they were going for second best which is not something an engineer of his calibre would wish to feel. Or could simply also be that he never considered Mercedes in his radar as he may have perceived that as a ‘burning bridge’ slap in the face to Red Bull given the recent acrimony between the team heads and the move to McLaren was a far more diplomatically palatable option for he and Red Bull. In any case, well done to McLaren and I think he will make a difference there.

 

Wasnt there some smug quotes from Helmut Marko or Horner a little while ago that Mercedes had tried to poach numerous high key personell from RB? Not just Newey. But this was shut down by RB?

I think that RB consideres Mercedes a bigger threath than McLaren. Just like Mercedes didnt want to supply RB with PUs

[gillesfan76]

https://the-race.com...s-in-barcelona/

 

Shovlin’s most recent comments further lend weight to the characteristic of the W14 and what has hopefully changed with the W14(B):

“To be honest, it has probably given us more freedom because the issue that we always had prior to that was getting good front end when you needed it at the apex but good entry stability when you’re hard on the brakes and turning in,” said Shovlin when asked by The Race whether the increased anti-dive had limited the team in terms of how it has to run set-up details such as camber.

“And that compromise was always something that we couldn’t resolve. You’re always left with either a weak rear on entry or a poor front at apex. So hopefully that’s moved us in the right

This exactly aligns with what Lewis said some months back.

[flyboym3]

I the car will be too hard on its tyres I fear. Not lost on me that at Monaco Hamilton tyres were wrecked and he had to pit first as he could no longer keep up the pace with the front runners.

[MortenF1]

I cant really say I remember that being the situation in Monaco, Hamilton dropping back.

[Frankbullitt]

 

A big enough change in cooling since testing.

[MortenF1]

Hoping to see them qualifying within four tenths of pole.
Might be a tall order with this being their first go with the updated car, on a traditional or normal race track, but I think it needs to be that close already.
Haven’t done the maths but I’m guessing their average gap to pole has been six tenths so far.

Edited by MortenF1, 01 June 2023 - 21:39.

[MasterOfCoin]

flyboym3, on 01 Jun 2023 - 19:36, said:

I the car will be too hard on its tyres I fear. Not lost on me that at Monaco Hamilton tyres were wrecked and he had to pit first as he could no longer keep up the pace with the front runners.

Different track characteristics to Monaco.....

[hollowstar]

MasterOfCoin, on 01 Jun 2023 - 21:28, said:

Different track characteristics to Monaco.....

Yeah and Monaco is usually nice on the tires compared to other tracks...

[lewislorenzo]

The car was good here last year so I am optimistic. Lewis had incredible pace in the race. Hope they have more aero efficiency too

[gillesfan76]

Not looking good so far. I’m hoping they’re just baseline testing and they can improve a few more tenths relative to those currently looking quicker than them. But far from convinced. Hopefully the direction is correct and they can continue understanding it.

 

I’ll post this link in the RB19 thread, but it goes to show what an incredible job Red Bull have done for these regulations. We really should appreciate the talent and competence and not whine like the others did for 7 straight years when Mercedes simply did a better job with the engine regulations. Everyone has the same opportunity and kudos to the ones that nailed it. 

 

edit: Very strange. It’s not allowing me to post the link for some reason w w w.linkedin/pulse/uncovered-secrets-red-bull-rb19-f1-part-iii-magic-vanja-hasanović

Edited by gillesfan76, 02 June 2023 - 13:19.

[monolulu]

“It’s only fp1” I hear myself say! Think this time I might be clutching at straws!

As you say it’s a matter of getting that baseline right. May have to go slower to get more performance in the future.

Edited by monolulu, 02 June 2023 - 13:35.

[peroa]

Not good, not terrible.

[lewislorenzo]

Doesn’t look good so far. Hopefully they were running it high😅

[RedRabbit]

peroa, on 02 Jun 2023 - 13:44, said:

Not good, not terrible.

So, exactly where they were?

In their defence, I guess they have said this is ground work on a whole new concept.

Basically, this year is going to be a test season for next year, but without the extreme that Ferrari do it.

[NickeF1]

Lewis car has no rear grip whatsoever

[monolulu]

Running different wing

[MortenF1]

Car is a handful and overheats the rears halfway through the lap.

[ToniF1]

Yeah HAM purple S1, lost 0.150 in S2 and than 0.5 in S3.

[lewislorenzo]

Yeah rear still all over the place🙄

monolulu, on 02 Jun 2023 - 15:20, said:

Running different wing

Guessing HAM has lower df?

Edited by lewislorenzo, 02 June 2023 - 15:43.

[monolulu]

lewislorenzo, on 02 Jun 2023 - 15:42, said:

Yeah rear still all over the place


Guessing HAM has lower df?

Yep 

[aray]

Merc have lot of jobs to do overnight.

[Mercstar]

How was race pace looking?

[lewislorenzo]

Slower than Haas and Alpine😂what a time to be alive