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Proposed 2024 tyre blanket ban


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#51 Chillimeister

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 15:45

How can you say that after years of Pirelli delivering tires not fit for purpose?......The tires that are supplied should also meet highest standard of the pinnacle, save the tire blanket ban and degradation gimmicks for the other series ....

 

I think you need to take your beefs up with the FIA. Pirelli are just supplying tyres that fulfil the design briefs given to them, ie. that deliberately won't last a full race so there are ideally two pit stops a race, that must be made with environmentally friendly compounds (or at least without some compounds they would like to use), etc. etc. Any tyre supplier would doubtless struggle with that brief, maybe not in the same way as Pirelli because they might take some other design paths, but you can bet they would still struggle and the teams and fans still wouldn't like them. (Not least because Pirelli have the benefit of some years of experience trying to produce what is required.) The problem is not so much with the supplier, but the fact that proper racing tyres (as we all understand them) are not presently on the agenda. Blame 'the show'.



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#52 pdac

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 16:10

How can you say that after years of Pirelli delivering tires not fit for purpose?......The tires that are supplied should also meet highest standard of the pinnacle, save the tire blanket ban and degradation gimmicks for the other series ....

 

It would be better if the tyres were better (although I do not believe that it's 100% the fault of Pirelli). But, regardless, everyone would have the same issues of working out how to get them to perform if tyre blankets were banned.



#53 AncientLurker

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 16:16

Doesn't matter how good or bad the tyres are, everyone has the same ones. Ban the blankets, adjust to the warm up laps, get racing. The Indycar in & out laps are super exciting with the warm up phase for the tyres. Let the 'best drivers in the world' prove it.

 



#54 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 17:07

Doesn't matter how good or bad the tyres are, everyone has the same ones. Ban the blankets, adjust to the warm up laps, get racing. The Indycar in & out laps are super exciting with the warm up phase for the tyres. Let the 'best drivers in the world' prove it.

Fine.......Then at the same time give everyone the same chassis so we don't have one team getting in right......Because you can bet it's gonna happen, as we've seen when one team hit's the reg's lottery......



#55 pdac

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 17:42

Fine.......Then at the same time give everyone the same chassis so we don't have one team getting in right......Because you can bet it's gonna happen, as we've seen when one team hit's the reg's lottery......

 

The competition is the chassis (build the best car). If every team had to manufacture their own tyres, that would be a different matter.



#56 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 17:58

The competition is the chassis (build the best car). If every team had to manufacture their own tyres, that would be a different matter.

It's that the goal anyway?.....Trying to add extra jeopardy to the racing just for the show, is a recipe for another team dominating......



#57 AncientLurker

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 18:20

Fine.......Then at the same time give everyone the same chassis so we don't have one team getting in right......Because you can bet it's gonna happen, as we've seen when one team hit's the reg's lottery......

 

Could this make RB more powerful because they get it right? Yep. But anyone else could nail it as well and make progress. All part of the competition.

 

Teams may opt to turn the tyres on quickly at the expense of wear on long runs, or go the other way, or go for a balance. Breaking in the tyre over the initial laps probably becomes more important and driver controlled versus a thermostat.

 

The only downside, which I don't think anyone has mentioned, is no more close up shots of the mechanics pulling the blankets off on the grid. The unsung heroes of the sport get less air time.
 



#58 ARTGP

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 18:27

Could this make RB more powerful because they get it right? Yep. But anyone else could nail it as well and make progress. All part of the competition.

 

Teams may opt to turn the tyres on quickly at the expense of wear on long runs, or go the other way, or go for a balance. Breaking in the tyre over the initial laps probably becomes more important and driver controlled versus a thermostat.

 

The only downside, which I don't think anyone has mentioned, is no more close up shots of the mechanics pulling the blankets off on the grid. The unsung heroes of the sport get less air time.
 

 

If it comes to fruition, I would like for the teams to have to declare the starting tire and be unable to change (unless rain). It would ruin some strategic elements if everyone knows what tires those around them are starting on and can react or cover the teams ahead or behind. 


Edited by ARTGP, 09 June 2023 - 18:29.


#59 pdac

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 18:45

It's that the goal anyway?.....Trying to add extra jeopardy to the racing just for the show, is a recipe for another team dominating......

 

It's not adding jeopardy, it's adding complexity. It's making the challenge to the teams and drivers that much more tricky. That's not just for the show. That's for the competition. F1 is primarily about teams trying to build a better performing car than their rivals and getting the best drivers to race them to win. So what's the problem with one team dominating, if they are indeed manufacturing a car that is much superior to their rivals? But look at is the other way ... the more variables they need to control, the less likely it is that a single team will get every one right. So if having to warm up the tyres is another variable, then it would possibly make single-team domination slightly less likely.



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#60 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 18:49

It's not adding jeopardy, it's adding complexity. It's making the challenge to the teams and drivers that much more tricky. That's not just for the show. That's for the competition. F1 is primarily about teams trying to build a better performing car than their rivals and getting the best drivers to race them to win. So what's the problem with one team dominating, if they are indeed manufacturing a car that is much superior to their rivals? But look at is the other way ... the more variables they need to control, the less likely it is that a single team will get every one right. So if having to warm up the tyres is another variable, then it would possibly make single-team domination slightly less likely.

They said the same about these new 2022 regs ....So well have to wait to find out who's right.....  ;)



#61 pdac

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 18:53

They said the same about these new 2022 regs ....So well have to wait to find out who's right.....  ;)

 

And exactly how will that happen? The term "less likely" does not imply that something will or will not happen. So there's no way to 'find out'.



#62 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 18:57

And exactly how will that happen? The term "less likely" does not imply that something will or will not happen. So there's no way to 'find out'.

It will happen once the cars are on the track in anger......Nothing will be known until then...



#63 Clatter

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 19:58

If it comes to fruition, I would like for the teams to have to declare the starting tire and be unable to change (unless rain). It would ruin some strategic elements if everyone knows what tires those around them are starting on and can react or cover the teams ahead or behind.


Not much in the way of strategy if they can't react to changes in conditions.

#64 Clatter

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Posted 09 June 2023 - 20:01

They said the same about these new 2022 regs ....So well have to wait to find out who's right.....  ;)


It might have come to fruition if they didn't mess around with those regs. We never really got to see what the 2022 regs would bring in the longer term.

#65 YamahaV10

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 03:30

They've been trying to get rid of them for years now. Every time a date is proposed, the teams and the drivers campaign to keep them. Every time, so far, they have succeeded. I see no reason why they won't succeed again here. It's pretty ridiculous that they cannot just accept and adapt.

 

The tires design seems to have evolved along with the blankets. This is why it is hard to adapt. 



#66 YamahaV10

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 03:32

It might have come to fruition if they didn't mess around with those regs. We never really got to see what the 2022 regs would bring in the longer term.

 

Might have ? The start of 2022 was better than 2021. They nailed it with the new regs. Then it all fell apart with the tech directives.



#67 pdac

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 08:19

The tires design seems to have evolved along with the blankets. This is why it is hard to adapt. 

 

In a way, that's the problem. It's looked at with the view "we must have the best tyres" without thought to the actual competition that they are hosting. It's all part of differentiating one team from another by their strategy calls rather than their original car design.



#68 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 11:14

Might have ? The start of 2022 was better than 2021. They nailed it with the new regs. Then it all fell apart with the tech directives.


It was looking better, but the TD (which only seemed to greatly affect one team) and the raising of the floor this year, means we will never know how things would have worked out in the long run.

#69 AncientLurker

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 13:54

If it comes to fruition, I would like for the teams to have to declare the starting tire and be unable to change (unless rain). It would ruin some strategic elements if everyone knows what tires those around them are starting on and can react or cover the teams ahead or behind.

Here’s a wacky thought, and I t’s not as radical as reverse grids. Teams declare race tires from pole back in order. Teams further back get a small strategic advantage.

#70 Goron3

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 14:02

I think you need to take your beefs up with the FIA. Pirelli are just supplying tyres that fulfil the design briefs given to them, ie. that deliberately won't last a full race so there are ideally two pit stops a race, that must be made with environmentally friendly compounds (or at least without some compounds they would like to use), etc. etc. Any tyre supplier would doubtless struggle with that brief, maybe not in the same way as Pirelli because they might take some other design paths, but you can bet they would still struggle and the teams and fans still wouldn't like them. (Not least because Pirelli have the benefit of some years of experience trying to produce what is required.) The problem is not so much with the supplier, but the fact that proper racing tyres (as we all understand them) are not presently on the agenda. Blame 'the show'.


The FIA never asked for tyres that are so thermally sensitive. Neither did FOM, teams or drivers.

Unfortunately it seems that once downforce increases, the characteristics of these tyres are such that the compound struggles with thermal deg and doesn't recover.

This wasn't an issue last year.

#71 pdac

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 15:19

The FIA never asked for tyres that are so thermally sensitive. Neither did FOM, teams or drivers.

Unfortunately it seems that once downforce increases, the characteristics of these tyres are such that the compound struggles with thermal deg and doesn't recover.

This wasn't an issue last year.

 

Maybe they should have asked for the opposite. Maybe they should do so now.


Edited by pdac, 10 June 2023 - 15:19.


#72 Clatter

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 15:24

The FIA never asked for tyres that are so thermally sensitive. Neither did FOM, teams or drivers.

Unfortunately it seems that once downforce increases, the characteristics of these tyres are such that the compound struggles with thermal deg and doesn't recover.

This wasn't an issue last year.


How do you know what they asked for? Pirelli have had the contract for a good while now, so not hard to think the FIA are getting what they want, and are happy with it.

#73 Bleu

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 18:24

...edit, wrong thread and deleting post doesn't work...


Edited by Bleu, 10 June 2023 - 18:25.


#74 Myrvold

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 18:28

But very specifically, the drivers who stopped for new tyres during the race - tyres that were not kept in blankets.


And the race where they all stopped?

#75 Disgrace

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 19:30

...edit, wrong thread and deleting post doesn't work...

 

You can right click on "delete" and opening it in a new tab will delete the post.



#76 danmills

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Posted 10 June 2023 - 22:53

Pirelli get given a lot of abuse but has any other tyre supplier had to amend their compounds and jump hoops to meet constant revisions in regulations as much as they have?

#77 KeithD68

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 06:15

Why do we need a tyre blanket ban?

 

Oh yeah because these rules haven't achieved a single objective and the FIA are fiddling again



#78 Clatter

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 07:08

Why do we need a tyre blanket ban?

Oh yeah because these rules haven't achieved a single objective and the FIA are fiddling again


Why do we need tyre blankets?

#79 Sterzo

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Posted 11 June 2023 - 09:57

Why do we need tyre blankets?

 

"For I am God, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, Wrap thy tyres in blankets, and lo, it was done."
 



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#80 ARTGP

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 05:44

Tire blanket ban for slick tires delayed until 2025.
Tire blanket ban for intermediate tires begins in 2024.
Full wets already do not use blankets, but are a worthless tire.

The reasoning for the slick tire delay is that teams want more testing of those tires in a wider range of conditions including crossover wet-to-dry conditions.

https://www.motorspo...4/10501164/amp/

Edited by ARTGP, 01 August 2023 - 05:51.


#81 Clatter

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 06:07

Tire blanket ban for slick tires delayed until 2025.
Tire blanket ban for intermediate tires begins in 2024.
Full wets already do not use blankets, but are a worthless tire.

The reasoning for the slick tire delay is that teams want more testing of those tires in a wider range of conditions including crossover wet-to-dry conditions.

https://www.motorspo...4/10501164/amp/


Who could possibly have predicted the ban wouldn't happen again. The teams now have another year to come up with excuses why it shouldn't happen.

#82 SenorSjon

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 06:37

Totally unexpected. The lobby has prevailed.

#83 Beri

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 06:42

Tire blanket ban for slick tires delayed until 2025.
Tire blanket ban for intermediate tires begins in 2024.
Full wets already do not use blankets, but are a worthless tire.

The reasoning for the slick tire delay is that teams want more testing of those tires in a wider range of conditions including crossover wet-to-dry conditions.

https://www.motorspo...4/10501164/amp/

 

*sigh*



#84 pdac

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 07:53

Hmm. I seem to remember a ban on tyre warmers being proposed as early as 2012 and that being postponed because Pirelli said that the compounds would need changing and it would take time. I also remember that they were going to introduce them when the 18" rims were introduced but, when Pirelli won the contract, they decided to defer that because Pirelli felt they should not make too many changes all at once.

 

Does this new deferment have anything to do with the rumour that Pirelli has secured the contract to continue supplying F1?



#85 Clatter

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 08:33

Hmm. I seem to remember a ban on tyre warmers being proposed as early as 2012 and that being postponed because Pirelli said that the compounds would need changing and it would take time. I also remember that they were going to introduce them when the 18" rims were introduced but, when Pirelli won the contract, they decided to defer that because Pirelli felt they should not make too many changes all at once.

 

Does this new deferment have anything to do with the rumour that Pirelli has secured the contract to continue supplying F1?

 


Wouldn't be surprised if they had some input, but the teams have been trying to stop the ban at every step. Found this article about what Pirelli say are the issues, the main one being the change in tyre pressure from cold to hot. It begs the question as to why other series manage quite happily. https://the-race.com...n-means-for-f1/

#86 pdac

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 11:40

Wouldn't be surprised if they had some input, but the teams have been trying to stop the ban at every step. Found this article about what Pirelli say are the issues, the main one being the change in tyre pressure from cold to hot. It begs the question as to why other series manage quite happily. https://the-race.com...n-means-for-f1/

 

Oh, the teams have always been against the idea - drivers keep saying it will make things unsafe - but they always seem to schedule a ban and then it's postponed. Those postponements always seem to happen around the time that either Pirelli are confirmed as supplier or in the lead-up before finalising on Pirelli.



#87 Tiakumosan

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 19:47

What tyres would they use next year? 2023? 2023 with modifications? The proposed 2024 no blanket tyres? If these can be used with blankets, they could test them in any circuit.

#88 ANF

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 20:27

Pathetic.



#89 ARTGP

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 20:34

What tyres would they use next year? 2023? 2023 with modifications? The proposed 2024 no blanket tyres? If these can be used with blankets, they could test them in any circuit.

 

The 2023 tires with adaptation for ever increasing downforce levels would make the most sense to me. 



#90 ForzaFormula

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 21:32

The problem is Pirelli and not being able to design f1 tyres properly

#91 pdac

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Posted 01 August 2023 - 21:43

The problem is Pirelli and not being able to design f1 tyres properly

 

I don't feel that they can't do it. It's just that they don't want to.