16 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

We have 16 top class entries for this year's 24h Le Mans race. It's the most since 17 LMP1 cars startet in 2011.

 

There were 22 LMP1 cars in 2008.

 

I wanted to have a look about the years with the most top-class entries. But it's very difficult to find the answers of that questions, because the Le Mans history is very complicated. We have to define what are top class entries.

 

So perhaps someone could help me.

 

In 2003 we had LMP900 and LMPGTP cars as top class entries. What are the differences between that cars and what are the differences between LMP900 (what it is standing for?) and LMP1?

We had 18 top class entries in 2003 and 21 in 2002

 

In 1999 we had LMP and LMGTP cars as top class entries if I am right. 25 cars were entered.

In 1998 LMP was called LMP1. Are these similiar LMP1 cars that were used 2004 onwards? With LMGT1 together we had 29 top class entries. In 1997 32.

 

So what are the top classes the years before? If I know that, I could find out the amount of top class entries in former years.

 

Thanks for help!

[Dan333SP]

This is a complex question I’ll try to answer in more detail later. LMP900 was basically the same as what became LMP1, the 900 was the car weight in Kg. That was as opposed to LMP675, a subclass for much lighter cars with less powerful engines that could still be competitive overall (though in practice only the Lola-MG and Reynard/Zytek actually were on the pace).

Regardless of what the numbers say, I think this year and next year will have the most top class cars with a real chance of winning overall since… the early 70s maybe? 2011 was really only going to be a race between the diesels with everyone else vying for best of the rest. In theory this year the BoP will give everyone (except Vanwall) a level playing field and we’ve probably never had a top class driver entry with more depth so there are no weak links. It’s insane.

[HistoryFan]

Perhaps in the Group C era the top class entries were also very good.
I will try to find the numbers for the years before 1998.

[ARTGP]

Some of us were pretending GTE-Pro was the top class from 2016-2019.

[Dan333SP]

Some of us were pretending GTE-Pro was the top class from 2016-2019.

The cool thing is… those classic photos of 12+ pro GTE cars running line astern for hours could now be recreated in the true top class, IF they do as good a job with BoP as they did in GTE (barring the Ford “gift” year).

[BRG]

Perhaps in the Group C era the top class entries were also very good.
I will try to find the numbers for the years before 1998.

Here's the 1990 entry list.  Just the 39 Group C1 entries......

[highdownforce]

The number of Porsche 962 C entries alone is larger than the current field

[HistoryFan]

Here's the 1990 entry list.  Just the 39 Group C1 entries......

Later C2 were faster than C1 (1992/1993)...

[Dan333SP]

Here's the 1990 entry list. Just the 39 Group C1 entries......

A few of those could hardly be considered real top class entires like that Eagle and the Norma M6, but yea I bet this would be hard to top in terms of cars nominally entered in the top class that actually start the race, even with such a huge spread in performance within that class. There were some C1 cars that year about as far off the pole position pace as LMGTE cars were last year compared to the Hypercars.

[SilverArrow31]

I re-watched the 2011 race recently... there may have been 17 LMP1s... but only the 7 diesel cars had any realistic shot of winning.

This year I think any Hypercar other than maybe the Glinkinhaus and Vanwall can win it... no comparison IMO.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 06 March 2023 - 20:58.

[LolaB0860]

I re-watched the 2011 race recently... there may have been 17 LMP1s... but only the 7 diesel cars had any realistic shot of winning.

This year I think any Hypercar other than maybe the Glinkinhaus and Vanwall can win it... no comparison IMO.

 

I never understood why "realistic shot of winning" is the sign of quality or health of a class... if you have Audi R18 TDI run by Audi Sport Team Joest and Zytek 09SC run by Quifel-ASM Team, diesel or not it's pretty obvious who's going to have better shot of winning. Same with Ferrari vs Minardi or Red Bull vs Haas.

 

I rather have teams competing on their own merits for what they are naturally capable of rather than everyone artificially being entitled to win because the rules dictate so. Cadillac-Dallara run by semi-factory-but-actually-privateer teams of this year would not have been able to naturally beat Toyota factory team in the olden days, they would be more akin to Rebellion Racing. But now they suddenly can

 

Those 17 LMP1 cars in that 2011 race - PS there was also 18th car on the reserve list - had 10 different chassis/engine combos, plus tire war and no bop. Yes the factory cars run diesels but so did Kolles Audis in 2009-2010 and they were still mediocre, not magically awesome

Edited by LolaB0860, 06 March 2023 - 22:10.

[SilverArrow31]

I never understood why "realistic shot of winning" is the sign of quality or health of a class... if you have Audi R18 TDI run by Audi Sport Team Joest and Zytek 09SC run by Quifel-ASM Team, diesel or not it's pretty obvious who's going to have better shot of winning. Same with Ferrari vs Minardi or Red Bull vs Haas.

 

I rather have teams competing on their own merits for what they are naturally capable of rather than everyone artificially being entitled to win because the rules dictate so. Cadillac-Dallara run by semi-factory-but-actually-privateer teams of this year would not have been able to naturally beat Toyota factory team in the olden days, they would be more akin to Rebellion Racing. But now they suddenly can

 

Those 17 LMP1 cars in that 2011 race - PS there was also 18th car on the reserve list - had 10 different chassis/engine combos, plus tire war and no bop. Yes the factory cars run diesels but so did Kolles Audis in 2009-2010 and they were still mediocre, not magically awesome

 

Well the difference was so much it was like two separate classes, which is my point, the "top" class that year only really had 7 cars. If you compare it to this year there are many more cars at the very top... with a shot of winning.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 07 March 2023 - 14:02.

[Dan333SP]

I never understood why "realistic shot of winning" is the sign of quality or health of a class... if you have Audi R18 TDI run by Audi Sport Team Joest and Zytek 09SC run by Quifel-ASM Team, diesel or not it's pretty obvious who's going to have better shot of winning. Same with Ferrari vs Minardi or Red Bull vs Haas.

 

I rather have teams competing on their own merits for what they are naturally capable of rather than everyone artificially being entitled to win because the rules dictate so. Cadillac-Dallara run by semi-factory-but-actually-privateer teams of this year would not have been able to naturally beat Toyota factory team in the olden days, they would be more akin to Rebellion Racing. But now they suddenly can

 

Those 17 LMP1 cars in that 2011 race - PS there was also 18th car on the reserve list - had 10 different chassis/engine combos, plus tire war and no bop. Yes the factory cars run diesels but so did Kolles Audis in 2009-2010 and they were still mediocre, not magically awesome

 

I get the point you're trying to make, but even setting aside the idea that BoP can allow privateer teams a shot, we have far more actual factory teams racing. Yes, CGR/AXR are full factory teams running the cars on behalf of Cadillac, just like AF Corse will run the Ferraris, Penske will run the Porsches, Joest used to run the Audis, etc. Doesn't diminish the effort vs someone like Toyota who run the cars fully in-house. Just look at the driver lineups... there are no grid fillers in this class. If you exclude the two boutique manufacturers running their own teams with their own cars, the only true "privateer" in the traditional sense is Team Jota with their Porsche. 

 

The only reason all of these factory teams are suddenly competing at the same time is because spending has been constrained by the rules, and BoP (hopefully) ensures they won't put in a huge investment and have absolutely no chance of winning. That's why it's an interesting metric to talk about how many cars have a realistic chance of winning. 

[HistoryFan]

A few of those could hardly be considered real top class entires like that Eagle and the Norma M6, but yea I bet this would be hard to top in terms of cars nominally entered in the top class that actually start the race, even with such a huge spread in performance within that class. There were some C1 cars that year about as far off the pole position pace as LMGTE cars were last year compared to the Hypercars.

 

I doubt every entry in 2023 is really in the situation to win the race.
 

[HistoryFan]

I re-watched the 2011 race recently... there may have been 17 LMP1s... but only the 7 diesel cars had any realistic shot of winning.

This year I think any Hypercar other than maybe the Glinkinhaus and Vanwall can win it... no comparison IMO.

 

I see Toyota dominating again.
 

[Scotracer]

It's all about fuel economy and reliability. Toyota will be hard to beat.

[HistoryFan]

perhaps ChatGTP could answer the question of this thread?