1968 replies to this topic

[Massa]

https://motorsport.n...tre,179471.html


Mosley and Bernie knew everything but decide to do nothing to "save the sport"

At the time they were a rule saying the championship order is untouchable after the ceremony. So they decided to give Hamilton his trophy and tell nothing.

They had all the informations about the suspicious crash, and the rule would have been to cancel the race result and Massa would have been WDC.

He feel sorry for Massa and if it was today he would have cancelled the race.

[flyboym3]

He's a liar, he didnt know.

[lewislorenzo]

Bernie talking nonsense as per usual. He has lost the plot

[P123]

https://motorsport.n...tre,179471.html


Mosley and Bernie knew everything but decide to do nothing to "save the sport"

At the time they were a rule saying the championship order is untouchable after the ceremony. So they decided to give Hamilton his trophy and tell nothing.

They had all the informations about the suspicious crash, and the rule would have been to cancel the race result and Massa would have been WDC.

He feel sorry for Massa and if it was today he would have cancelled the race.

 

You can't cherry pick out a race result.  A race result that impacted each subsequent race.  It's always been highly fanciful stuff to think it could be done, without still poisoning the season.  If you wish to wipe away that stain then it would require Singapore onwards being voided.

[Beri]

You can't cherry pick out a race result.  A race result that impacted each subsequent race.  It's always been highly fanciful stuff to think it could be done, without still poisoning the season.  If you wish to wipe away that stain then it would require Singapore onwards being voided.

 

Tell that to the points scoring systems in place where an X amount of races were dropped from your individual results.

[Counterbalance]

You can't cherry pick out a race result. A race result that impacted each subsequent race. It's always been highly fanciful stuff to think it could be done, without still poisoning the season. If you wish to wipe away that stain then it would require Singapore onwards being voided.

He also forgot to mention that Massa drove away with half his fuel rig during his pit stop. That didn’t help much, either.

[pRy]

I imagine the most they could have done is DSQ Alonso which would have granted Lewis an extra 2 points. Massa was well out of the points so it wouldn't have helped him. As for if he knew or not... I don't think it's necessarily far fetched that he did know. He's always been close to Flavio.

Edited by pRy, 02 March 2023 - 21:33.

[alframsey]

I can’t deny how these moments make me so glad that he has gone

[jonpollak]

All I get is a picture of Meghan Markle.

I mean yeah, she’s a car crash, and we all knew it but I don’t see how Bernie figures into it.

Jp

[pRy]

I can’t deny how these moments make me so glad that he has gone

 
In what respect? I like hearing this stuff. I'm sad he's never written a book. He must know so many little juicy secrets.

[pdac]

Bernie talking nonsense as per usual. He has lost the plot

 

He's not lost the plot at all. He's a bitter man as he didn't expect to be kicked out of F1 and he's been really desperate to take any path to try to criticise and discredit F1 ever since. This is yet another example of him trying to catch the headlines and make himself look the all-powerful again.

[jjcale]

Well... I remember a poster callled Pretentious Bread on PF1 forum figured it out right away - I think the race was still going on (but that last bit could be a false memory) ..... so I am sure others with far more information had an idea of what was going on .... and possibly in real time. 

 

I dont think Bernie is lying..

 

... and you would need some evidence to say he is lying .... if you are just saying you dont believe him its one thing. You dont need to put up evidence for that .... but if you go further and positively say he is lying - you cant just do that - you need to point to evidence to say that.

Edited by jjcale, 03 March 2023 - 03:07.

[alframsey]

In what respect? I like hearing this stuff. I'm sad he's never written a book. He must know so many little juicy secrets.

The way he ran the sport, if he knew then something should have been done. It’s a sport with rules. Just as much as AD21 annoys me if he knew about this then **** him

[jonpollak]

In what respect? I like hearing this stuff. I'm sad he's never written a book. He must know so many little juicy secrets.

Have you seen “Lucky” pRy?
Jp

[pRy]

Have you seen “Lucky” pRy?
Jp

 
No, thank you for reminding me. I need to seek that out.

[chr1s]

From memory, I thought it was exposed when a disgruntled  Piquet junior, having been dropped by Renault, told Daddy, who then told his old chief mechanic, one Charlie Whiting who then told Bernie? Or something like that!

[FLB]

Well... I remember a poster callled Pretentious Bread on PF1 forum figured it out right away - I think the race was still going on (but that last bit could be a false memory) ..... so I am sure others with far more information had an idea of what was going on .... and possibly in real time. 

 

I dont think Bernie is lying..

 

... and you would need some evidence to say he is lying .... if you are just saying you dont believe him is one thing. You dnot need to put up evidence for that .... but if you go further and positively say he is lying - you cant just do that - you need to point to evidence to say that.

 

 

I would need to find out where I read it to be sure (it may have been Joe Saward's blog), but Peter Sauber had figured it out from Day One.

[jonpollak]

No, thank you for reminding me. I need to seek that out.

It’s fabulous.
All that footage we’ve never seen that he hoarded.
The Jochen Rindt stuff alone is worth the price of a Discovery + sub for a month.
Jp

[Myrvold]

He also forgot to mention that Massa drove away with half his fuel rig during his pit stop. That didn’t help much, either.

 

Which there is a chance wouldn't have happened without the SC?

 

Regardless, it's not about cherrypicking but fixed races and how to deal with them. Nothing? DQ the ones involved (Renault)? Null the entire race due to a fix? 2 out of 3 scenarios does not impact the championship.

[pup]

I am to believe that Max Mosely passed on the chance to screw McLaren out of the WDC, for the good of the sport.

 

ok Bernie.

[Seanspeed]

 
In what respect? I like hearing this stuff. I'm sad he's never written a book. He must know so many little juicy secrets.

You couldn't trust anything said in it at all.  Bernie was a constant instigator and BS'er.  So was Max Mosley, for that matter.  Both lived in ultra privileged worlds where they enjoyed creating drama at whatever expense, just cuz it was amusing for them.  

 

They had financial interests for doing so at the time, and they'd have financial interests in doing so again here trying to sell a book.  

 

They aren't level headed people with a care for reason and truth.  They are basically maladjusted oligarchs.  

[PlatenGlass]

I imagine the most they could have done is DSQ Alonso which would have granted Lewis an extra 2 points. Massa was well out of the points so it wouldn't have helped him. As for if he knew or not... I don't think it's necessarily far fetched that he did know. He's always been close to Flavio.

 

Yes, there's no way they'd just scrap the entire race result. There's no precedent for that. There's just no reason to do it. They might have disqualified Alonso. That's all.

[Spillage]

There was definitely a feeling that something fishy was going on at the time. I remember Mark Hughes pointing out in his Autosport report that it was a bit weird that Alonso had pitted for no obvious strategic reason imemdiately before his teammate hit the wall. I guess Bernie may be embellishing things - they very likely were suspicious, but with no evidence couldn't do anything about it.

[Showty]

He feel sorry for Massa and if it was today he would have cancelled the race.

No, he wouldn't, we all know that.

The "save the sport" umbrella...we've seen that too many times.

[Anderis]

Yes, there's no way they'd just scrap the entire race result. There's no precedent for that. There's just no reason to do it. They might have disqualified Alonso. That's all.

There's no precedent for that because that situation was one of a kind in F1's history. I think never in modern F1 did a team do a thing that was both against the regulations and affecting the race outcome to such an extent. I could imagine that if they had taken the race result from the last lap before Piquet's crash and awarded half-points, the decision would've been defendable, although I obviously don't know the F1 sporting rules from 2008 that well to know for sure.

 

There was definitely a feeling that something fishy was going on at the time. I remember Mark Hughes pointing out in his Autosport report that it was a bit weird that Alonso had pitted for no obvious strategic reason imemdiately before his teammate hit the wall. I guess Bernie may be embellishing things - they very likely were suspicious, but with no evidence couldn't do anything about it.

It was super fishy that a driver who started from P15 on a circuit that's very difficult to overtake on took onboard the least fuel out of any driver on the grid. That was a thing which was basically never happening during those times. It was against all logic in terms of race strategy. Unlike most people, I believed the very first reports from Piquet Jr that the race might have been fixed, because Alonso's strategy didn't make sense any other way.
 

Edited by Anderis, 02 March 2023 - 22:31.

[P123]

Tell that to the points scoring systems in place where an X amount of races were dropped from your individual results.

 

Drivers and teams were aware of that in advance, which makes it a key difference to the idea you can throw in a change after the fact.

[thefinalapex]

There's no precedent for that because that situation was one of a kind in F1's history. I think never in modern F1 did a team do a thing that was both against the regulations and affecting the race outcome to such an extent. I could imagine that if they had taken the race result from the last lap before Piquet's crash and awarded half-points, the decision would've been defendable, although I obviously don't know the F1 sporting rules from 2008 that well to know for sure.

It was super fishy that a driver who started from P15 on a circuit that's very difficult to overtake on took onboard the least fuel out of any driver on the grid. That was a thing which was basically never happening during those times. It was against all logic in terms of race strategy. Unlike most people, I believed the very first reports from Piquet Jr that the race might have been fixed, because Alonso's strategy didn't make sense any other way.

Thats why i have a hard time believing that Alonso didn’t know about it..

[Slartibartfast]

Well... I remember a poster callled Pretentious Bread on PF1 forum figured it out right away - I think the race was still going on (but that last bit could be a false memory) ..... so I am sure others with far more information had an idea of what was going on .... and possibly in real time. 

 

I dont think Bernie is lying..

 

... and you would need some evidence to say he is lying .... if you are just saying you dont believe him is one thing. You dnot need to put up evidence for that .... but if you go further and positively say he is lying - you cant just do that - you need to point to evidence to say that.

When Ferrari sue for damages from a lost championship (according to Ecclestone), he'll say he was lying. 

 

Will Ferrari sue? If not, why not?

 

I'm confident that I can say on a public forum that Ecclestone is lying. He can threaten to sue me and/or Autosport for libel for that. Will he? 

[southernstars]

Thats why i have a hard time believing that Alonso didn’t know about it..

 

Yeah, and it's hard to stomach, and for me stains his career in a really ugly way. If he knew, he should never have been allowed to race a Formula One car again.

 

But then you have to prove that he knew, and that's difficult.

[Fastcake]

Thinking there was something funny going on (which some people did, at the least the thought it was awfully convenient went around) is a long way from knowing what happened. 

 

Bernie's a sharp fellow and cheated plenty in his time, enough so that he could probably conceive of deliberately crashing one of your cars to let the other driver win. He thought of it and is now pretending that means he knew all about it, and wants to make sensational claims because he likes the attention.

[as65p]

You can tell which people are most eager to flag that story as a lie. 

 

Well, I'm with them this time, I like Alonso keeping his hard-earned win as much as they like Hamilton to keep his first championship.

[MikeTekRacing]

He's a liar, he didnt know.

How do you know what one knows or not

[Reinmuster]

Ferrari themselves costs Massa (and Kimi) the title.

 

Not Bernie.

[FirstnameLastname]

On the latest Bring Back V10s podcast, Ed Straw says a lot of people in the media centre did think ‘oh that’s a strange coincide’ but that coincidences can happen - so never thought more about it.

When it was revealed, there was many people who straight away realised it made sense, hiding in plain sight. But at the time it just looked like a funny quirk of the race.

I don’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it. And I can’t believe Flávio sacked piquet when he knew piquet had such dirt on him and the team.

[RedRabbit]

There's no precedent for that because that situation was one of a kind in F1's history. I think never in modern F1 did a team do a thing that was both against the regulations and affecting the race outcome to such an extent. I could imagine that if they had taken the race result from the last lap before Piquet's crash and awarded half-points, the decision would've been defendable, although I obviously don't know the F1 sporting rules from 2008 that well to know for sure.

It was super fishy that a driver who started from P15 on a circuit that's very difficult to overtake on took onboard the least fuel out of any driver on the grid. That was a thing which was basically never happening during those times. It was against all logic in terms of race strategy. Unlike most people, I believed the very first reports from Piquet Jr that the race might have been fixed, because Alonso's strategy didn't make sense any other way.

Alonso wasn't deliberately short fuelled. It was a mistake. After they found out, Flavio had an idea, and approached Symonds, who pointed out it was possible with the crane locations to cause a SC with low risk to the driver.

Races are fixed in F1 all the time through team orders .

[RedRabbit]

Ferrari themselves costs Massa (and Kimi) the title.

Not Bernie.

This is overlooked all the time. Ferrari's light system failed. It would have failed under a normal stop with the same result, a fuel rig being dragged down pitlane.

Massa was never winning that race. Kimi on the other hand might have, if they don't double stack. He gets another lap while Ferrari wheel out a spare rig.

[CoolBreeze]

I don't think Bernie is lying at all. Immediately after the race, there has already been whispers about this being a fake crash around the paddock. 

 

However, considering that in 2007 there was the spygate and now in 2008 there's this crashgate, and with the credit crunch/economic crisis looming, i fully understand why they didn't do anything at all. Most of us would have done the same. It is to save the sport. Like it or not that's the ugly truth. 

 

At that point of time, it was just too tough to make decisions like this. That being said, you don't lose/win a WDC over one weekend. Massa, just like Hamilton, made his share of mistakes as well. 

[lewislorenzo]

He's not lost the plot at all. He's a bitter man as he didn't expect to be kicked out of F1 and he's been really desperate to take any path to try to criticise and discredit F1 ever since. This is yet another example of him trying to catch the headlines and make himself look the all-powerful again.

Did Bernie mention Spa 2008 or AD 2021 farces guess not. He certainly likes to discredit Lewis a lot more than F1 in general.

Edited by lewislorenzo, 03 March 2023 - 07:09.

[Gareth]

‘We knew, but didn’t do anything to save the sport. Then a year later we also knew, and came down on it hard’ seems tough to make sense of to me?

[jjcale]

On the latest Bring Back V10s podcast, Ed Straw says a lot of people in the media centre did think ‘oh that’s a strange coincide’ but that coincidences can happen - so never thought more about it.

When it was revealed, there was many people who straight away realised it made sense, hiding in plain sight. But at the time it just looked like a funny quirk of the race.

I don’t believe Alonso didn’t know about it. And I can’t believe Flávio sacked piquet when he knew piquet had such dirt on him and the team.

 

If their minds didnt work in that way, they would not have jobs in the media today .... 

[Claudius]

Yes, there's no way they'd just scrap the entire race result. There's no precedent for that. There's just no reason to do it. They might have disqualified Alonso. That's all.

 

Even if the race results were to be deleted, it should've been done straight after the race. So that the contenders knew what the score was.

Edited by Claudius, 03 March 2023 - 08:16.

[JimmyClark]

This is overlooked all the time. Ferrari's light system failed. It would have failed under a normal stop with the same result, a fuel rig being dragged down pitlane.

Massa was never winning that race. Kimi on the other hand might have, if they don't double stack. He gets another lap while Ferrari wheel out a spare rig.

 

True, but I think the argument was that the race results should have been annulled, meaning no drivers scored points. 

[Collombin]

You can tell which people are most eager to flag that story as a lie.

The thread was started by someone from the "other side".

Anyway, an Alonso DQ would be the obvious response. Stripping Hamilton of a title because Renault cheated? Sounds a bit desperate. I'd rather lose a title than win one in that fashion.

[FirstnameLastname]

If their minds didnt work in that way, they would not have jobs in the media today ....

Was there a deluge of stories that weekend that people openly suspected foul play by Renault? I don’t think so… most folk were just enjoying a Fernando win

I’d have imagined the race thread here to maybe have cast it up… be interesting to find it and see what was being said.

[FirstnameLastname]

Seems many here were just enjoying the moment

https://forums.autos...cussion-merged/

Slarti knew the real situation (as always) it seems and was right on the money 3 posts in.

[Goron3]

Did Bernie mention Spa 2008 or AD 2021 farces guess not. He certainly likes to discredit Lewis a lot more than F1 in general.

Neither of these are equal comparisons. Singapore 2008 is the race where Renault forced a driver to deliberately crash at a particular spot on the circuit to benefit another drive. It's as close to fixing a result as you can get.

 

I don't know how you can even compare Spa to that.

[Brackets]

After all of this I just want to know what pretentious bread is. Croissants?

 

It seems I am not alone in this, though it is discomforting that those people are wondering about it in a padded room!

 

 

[thefinalapex]

You can tell which people are most eager to flag that story as a lie. 

 

Well, I'm with them this time, I like Alonso keeping his hard-earned win as much as they like Hamilton to keep his first championship.

 

If this was about RB and Verstappen this would have been already on 10 pages

[Beri]

Seems many here were just enjoying the moment

https://forums.autos...cussion-merged/

Slarti knew the real situation (as always) it seems and was right on the money 3 posts in.

 

But Slarti is a wizzard. So no surprise he already knew before Bernie.

[george1981]

Mosley spoke about this some time ago. There were a lot of rumours at the time and Mosley was sure the crash was deliberate but until someone went on record he couldn't do anything about it. Then Flavio let Piquet junior go and Piquet junior and agreed to go on record. 

 

Mosley could have started an investigation in 2008 and might have been able to persuade/scare someone into talking. But that would been harmful to the sport, and at the time there wasn't any evidence. If the evidence didn't materialise then it would have just harmed the sport. 

 

Although I rarely agreed with Mosley I think he got this one right.