240 replies to this topic

[mclarensmps]

PitViperRacing, on 25 Mar 2023 - 23:34, said:

I'm not sure why people keep bringing up Honda?

The post I'm responding to used the switch from Renault to Mercedes as part of the big changes to the team since 2018.

It's a hindsight thing, like had they stuck with Honda for 2 more years, Honda would have turned it around, but at the time nobody could see it. 

I'm more bringing it up in context with the Ricciardo point made after. It's like: Nobody forced them to switch, but clearly it wasn't working, and they had to cut their losses. They had to do the same with Daniel. But for Daniel you're insinuating that it was the car at fault for his performance more than anything else. I think that's unfair, because Norris wasn't as hampered as Daniel was, and neither was Sainz. 

[H0R]

I am not convinced that Honda would have turned it around if they had stuck with McLaren. They pulled the finger out of their proverbial derriere once they got sacked and had to redeem themselves. That McLaren screwed up just as much became apparent only afterwards.

Edited by H0R, 26 March 2023 - 17:20.

[Rumblestrip]

mclarensmps, on 26 Mar 2023 - 15:56, said:

It's a hindsight thing, like had they stuck with Honda for 2 more years, Honda would have turned it around, but at the time nobody could see it. 

I'm more bringing it up in context with the Ricciardo point made after. It's like: Nobody forced them to switch, but clearly it wasn't working, and they had to cut their losses. They had to do the same with Daniel. But for Daniel you're insinuating that it was the car at fault for his performance more than anything else. I think that's unfair, because Norris wasn't as hampered as Daniel was, and neither was Sainz. 

 

I'd argue that's a could. Honda needed a team to write-off a year to allow them to develop their way back to parity, and given some of the articles and videos that came out after the split I think both parties needed a clean start. The relationship was broken beyond immediate repair.

[mclarensmps]

That's just an error by me. I meant to say COULD instead of WOULD . Hindsight does some funny things

[New Britain]

Rumblestrip, on 26 Mar 2023 - 17:20, said:

I'd argue that's a could. Honda needed a team to write-off a year to allow them to develop their way back to parity, and given some of the articles and videos that came out after the split I think both parties needed a clean start. The relationship was broken beyond immediate repair.

Exactly. It was no skin off Red Bull's nose to order Toro Rosso to sacrifice an entire season in order to test the Honda PU. Twenty races, twenty qualifying sessions, sixty practice sessions, plus normal testing - to how many seasons of normal testing was that the equivalent, maybe five full seasons? For Red Bull, that was effectively a free option, something no other team could have had.

[baddog]

H0R, on 26 Mar 2023 - 17:18, said:

I am not convinced that Honda would have turned it around if they had stuck with McLaren. They pulled the finger out of their proverbial derriere once they got sacked and had to redeem themselves. That McLaren screwed up just as much became apparent only afterwards.

 

That is an interpretation, but doesn't seem to me the most logical one. When two partners split and one goes on to great success with a new partner, while the other languishes with a sequence of other partners, which one looks like the problem?

[mclarensmps]

baddog, on 27 Mar 2023 - 01:17, said:

That is an interpretation, but doesn't seem to me the most logical one. When two partners split and one goes on to great success with a new partner, while the other languishes with a sequence of other partners, which one looks like the problem?

The season with Toro Rosso proved that they had big problems of their own, so it's not an interpretation. They eventually succeeded, but they were a big weakness among many weak points mclaren had. 

[baddog]

mclarensmps, on 27 Mar 2023 - 01:40, said:

The season with Toro Rosso proved that they had big problems of their own, so it's not an interpretation. They eventually succeeded, but they were a big weakness among many weak points mclaren had. 

 

Oh true, but Honda accepted their failures right away and proved to have the fundamentals right, Mclaren just blamed everything on Honda then when they left went on to prove they in fact aren't a consistently competitive chassis builder.

[kumo7]

baddog, on 27 Mar 2023 - 04:45, said:

Oh true, but Honda accepted their failures right away and proved to have the fundamentals right, Mclaren just blamed everything on Honda then when they left went on to prove they in fact aren't a consistently competitive chassis builder.

 

That upturn from Honda was something good to follow. McLaren is taking more time to get back on speed. 

How exactly Honda did turn that corner? Have they got external specialists advising them about F1-level technology? 

[baddog]

kumo7, on 27 Mar 2023 - 05:15, said:

That upturn from Honda was something good to follow. McLaren is taking more time to get back on speed. 

How exactly Honda did turn that corner? Have they got external specialists advising them about F1-level technology? 

 

I dont know, and I was being a bit sarky/mean there anyway.

 

I just dont get the seemingly endless excuses/leeway Mac leadership gets. They have failed as far as I can see over and over, but we still see people here praising Zak Brown like he has actually been a success.

[H0R]

Brown has been a success in terms of his commercial work. Concidentally that's what he was hired for in the first place, still by Ron. At least as far as I remember. He took over bigger responsibilities but I do not find him a convincing in this regard. Not at all, to be honest and I think McLaren needs a leader with a bigger vision and probably a better grasp on F1. However it cannot be denied that no team can exist without a somewhat solid commercial foundation and Brown took care of it.

[Dennista]

H0R, on 27 Mar 2023 - 07:16, said:

Brown has been a success in terms of his commercial work. Concidentally that's what he was hired for in the first place, still by Ron. At least as far as I remember. He took over bigger responsibilities but I do not find him a convincing in this regard. Not at all, to be honest and I think McLaren needs a leader with a bigger vision and probably a better grasp on F1. However it cannot be denied that no team can exist without a somewhat solid commercial foundation and Brown took care of it.

 

 

A hands on Ron would always be more effective, he's won 7 constructor titles. That level of pedigree is hard to match however Zak is also equally as excellent in his own sphere of expertise. He should hire the best TP he can afford ASAP.

[kumo7]

baddog, on 27 Mar 2023 - 06:50, said:

I dont know, and I was being a bit sarky/mean there anyway.

 

I just dont get the seemingly endless excuses/leeway Mac leadership gets. They have failed as far as I can see over and over, but we still see people here praising Zak Brown like he has actually been a success.

 

Zak made his presence very clear and asserted his role in the company well enough that none could remove him. 

I dunno if I should call it a success, as success could only be measured firstly by the WDC, then secondly by WCC, in his position. 
If this debacle of removing TP and hanging 5th continues, the situation could be greatly different. 

 

Nevertheless, Zak takes bold actions. Now the results must come.

 

 

I hate to say that the move of Seidl to AUDI hit the outfit very hard. Stella is now walking on the edge together with Zak. this and the next year will be crucial.

 

 

 

Just how good is Niel Houldey? He was the head of Vehicle concept 2021, meaning that he was made responsible for this year's car, or the next? 

He is in the position to make his statements with Prod now and the next year. He might be a happy guy. 

[RedRabbit]

kumo7, on 25 Mar 2023 - 17:08, said:

I said clearly, dream on about the numbers you noted. Is it fact, it journo’s wriying. Do you have invoice, transactions or contract? I say you have none of those, just dreaming. If you have one, come forward and show us.

This kind of reply is why this place get less and interesting for so many

[mclarensmps]

baddog, on 27 Mar 2023 - 04:45, said:

Oh true, but Honda accepted their failures right away and proved to have the fundamentals right, Mclaren just blamed everything on Honda then when they left went on to prove they in fact aren't a consistently competitive chassis builder.

Definitely, and it was another reason why the split had to happen, because otherwise the team would never have been exposed. 

[kumo7]

RedRabbit, on 27 Mar 2023 - 11:41, said:

This kind of reply is why this place get less and interesting for so many

This is a discussion forum, I understood.

I still do but clearly understand what you mean. Care to elaborate your point?

We are here to discuss, we are or enemy to each other, but colleagues.

Edited by kumo7, 27 March 2023 - 22:10.

[baddog]

mclarensmps, on 27 Mar 2023 - 13:27, said:

Definitely, and it was another reason why the split had to happen, because otherwise the team would never have been exposed. 

 

I should also stress I WANT Mclaren to return to being a top team (need a worthy villain ;) ). I dont know how they get there, if I did I would be rich, but RB show you dont' have to be a car manufacturer or something, and Mac should I think be a great base as an organisation.

[New Britain]

Senior aerodynamicist Mariano Alperin leaving Aston to join McLaren:

 

https://www.autospor...-push/10449419/

[Mc_Silver]

It's good to see that Zak and Stella are constructively and systematically trying to turn things around by addressing shortcomings in the team.

[f1rules]

well the most important is he got insights into the current car, its concepts, numbers and strengths, because Aston didnt really do anything good until the RB team took over :-) But positive McLaren are doing something. Lets hope they got some from RB also

Edited by f1rules, 28 March 2023 - 09:30.

[EvilPhil II]

So, very concerned now, McLaren have recruited the ex Aston Martin aero guru (note he has left during their upturn), he was also head of aero at Honda in 2006/7 (I believe) during a huge down turn in their fortunes and went to BMW Sauber in 2008 right before their terrible season and drop in form.

[f1rules]

i hope he only left after being involved in this years car, because everything before that is of no great value, and if he was part of that, his results were less then amazing, was he fired or headhunted

 

EvilPhil II, on 28 Mar 2023 - 09:38, said:

So, very concerned now, McLaren have recruited the ex Aston Martin aero guru (note he has left during their upturn), he was also head of aero at Honda in 2006/7 (I believe) during a huge down turn in their fortunes and went to BMW Sauber in 2008 right before their terrible season and drop in form.

[Risil]

baddog, on 27 Mar 2023 - 06:50, said:

I just dont get the seemingly endless excuses/leeway Mac leadership gets. They have failed as far as I can see over and over, but we still see people here praising Zak Brown like he has actually been a success.

 

I feel McLaren have done some things well during Brown's tenure. I've found McLaren generally more convincing in 2019-23 than Renault/Alpine, who are their obvious competitor. That said, Aston's success at the start of this season does make you wonder whether everyone who isn't Mercedes/Red Bull/Ferrari has been setting their sights too low.

[Owen]

McLaren lands senior Aston F1 aerodynamicist amid aggressive recruitment push

https://www.motorspo...-push/10449414/

[Nobody]

EvilPhil II, on 28 Mar 2023 - 09:38, said:

So, very concerned now, McLaren have recruited the ex Aston Martin aero guru (note he has left during their upturn), he was also head of aero at Honda in 2006/7 (I believe) during a huge down turn in their fortunes and went to BMW Sauber in 2008 right before their terrible season and drop in form.

 

 

I would say if he has knowledge of what has happened in the AM aero dept. from Feb '22 to Feb '23 it's a huge coup

[f1rules]

now who gave the info for this article do you guys think :-) "motorsport has learned" from McLaren no doubt, who is in serious need of rebuilding trust in their project

[GlenWatkins]

And so what are you insinuating with that? Who else would give that information?

Edited by GlenWatkins, 28 March 2023 - 11:14.

[Nathan]

People must remember Zak has bosses that make the important decisions.  McLaren has been under capitalized for a number of years now, do you think that was Zak's plan?  McLaren shareholders decided to turn the company into a low volume car maker that competes directly with most of the potential PU suppliers - present or incoming.  How do you win a WCC/WDC without Adrian Newey, or a works engine deal/financial package? 

 

To label a season a failure because you didn't achieve an unachievable objective is a silly way to go about mind management.

 

Since Zak came in, McLaren has had boom times sponsorship wise, has a stable of great young drivers, took the name back to its roots somewhat, and unquestionably has elevated the McLaren brand.

 

When you remove the technology barrier in F1, Zak's Autosport team not so long ago won the LMP2 championship, their class at LeMans.  Under Zak's direction McLaren bought a struggling Indycar team that now has displaced Andretti Autosport down the pecking order. So, the motorsports management ability is clearly there, but handcuffs not allowing works engines, or not having an up to date wind tunnel,... those things are 'out of scope'.

[KWSN - DSM]

McLaren fair or not is being measured against their own past, currently personified by Brown.

[mclarensmps]

New Britain, on 28 Mar 2023 - 08:48, said:

Senior aerodynamicist Mariano Alperin leaving Aston to join McLaren:

 

https://www.autospor...-push/10449419/

 

This is alarming for me. Sounds like we're getting an AM reject here

[pup]

I think the article is pretty clear (as is his title at AM as head of aero *technology*) that his hire has to do with staffing the new wind tunnel. So I wouldn’t get too worked up about it one way or the other - he’s not going to be designing the car.

He’ll also bring knowledge of the abilities of Mercedes’ tunnel as well as AM’s new tunnel.

[Mc_Silver]

pup, on 28 Mar 2023 - 15:30, said:

I think the article is pretty clear (as is his title at AM as head of aero *technology*) that his hire has to do with staffing the new wind tunnel. So I wouldn’t get too worked up about it one way or the other - he’s not going to be designing the car.

He’ll also bring knowledge of the abilities of Mercedes’ tunnel as well as AM’s new tunnel.

Yep. F1 is all about having the best know-how.

[MichaelJP]

I rarely post here these days, but came on to see if there was any discussion of Zak Brown at McLaren, and here it is.

Zak's position seems to be impregnable, despite his poor record over the last 5 years. That he retains his position speaks volumes as to his political and image-refinement skills, which also shows in many of the comments here, which absolve him of blame.

 

But seriously, he is the CEO, he has executive powers to virtually do what he likes within the usual constraints. He should take responsibility; resign or be sacked.

 

I was no fan of Ron's personality but his ability to drive the team to success was beyond measure. Zak will never be able to fill his shoes.

As to who would replace him, I have no idea, but the team really does need a from-the-top reboot.

[GlenWatkins]

IMO, after replacing the TP and TD the last thing McLaren need is to replace their CEO.

[mclarensmps]

It makes absolutely no sense for the CEO to replace the TP and TD, and then leave. If that were to happen, it should happen the other way around. the CEO should go first, and then the new CEO should bring in new people. 

Doing it backwards would just cause even more instability and make things worse.

Anyhow, I see no reason for Zak to be relieved of his duties just yet. 

[KWSN - DSM]

The various problems McLaren have had, have faced since Brown became the boss can be explained in a convincing ways, so no there is no need to oust him now - However if this re-do does not work out either the it should be looked at by his board.

[William Hunt]

McLaren have hired Emanuele Pirro
https://formulascout...director/105948

[pup]

https://the-race.com...h-team-blunder/

[kumo7]

One thing that feel counter forces is that Key slowed down the changes put on the car. Vis a vis, I felt car changed s lot under Key. I understood Zak addressed Key was not match of Newey in reading what new reg tells engineers to do, he was conservative.
So it must be something like when the current reg came in to the office Prod said one thing and Key said the opposite, which formed the car, which was a dog, thus Stella saying Prod being under utilized. But Key noticed that the car was pointing wrong direction, so quickly shifted its dev directions, more towards the Red Bull.
I do not know what Prod pushed two years ago nor no backing of anything I have written here, just guessing.
Will be goud to know.
Never the less, the arrival of the concept is now crucial while old school is coming in, preparing B car. These sequences sounds pretty much that it is operating at its max end of resources. No reason why McLaren was in talks with Audi, F1 does eat up resources. Zak can bring up money which is incredible. In what way McLaren could go forward?

Edited by kumo7, 23 April 2023 - 03:01.

[FirstnameLastname]

FirstnameLastname, on 23 Mar 2023 - 13:20, said:

James key seen chalet shopping in Switzerland

Must have found a nice one

[propercare]

mclarensmps, on 28 Mar 2023 - 14:43, said:

This is alarming for me. Sounds like we're getting an AM reject here

Not sure if serious or joking