74 replies to this topic

[Sterzo]

Nelson Piquet must pay 5 million Brazilian reals (about £780,000) for racist and homophobic comments against Lewis Hamilton, according to the Times of London. The action was brought not by Hamilton, but by four Brazilian human rights groups. The article isn't entirely clear, but it looks as though the money must be paid to Hamilton, though the amount includes a "punitive" as well as compensatory element. This is because of Piquet's 2021 comments after the British GP crash.

 

We discussed the ins and outs in this old closed thread:

https://forums.autos...8#entry10116807

 

If you have a Times subscription you can read it here, but I'm sure it'll be all over the news.

https://www.thetimes...ilton-tm795k2xv

 

[flyboym3]

Uk bbc front page too for those who don't have times subscription https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/65074698

[milestone 11]

Uk bbc front page too for those who don't have times subscription https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/65074698

Yeah, that's where I saw it

[jonpollak]

5MillionBrazillian ??!
That’s salada Brazilians

Jp

[Sterzo]

All the reports I've seen appear to use much the same wording, obviously from a news agency, and it's not entirely clear whether Piquet has been "fined" (a word used in the reports) or is paying damages (they use the word "compensation"). The two things are quite different. We could do with a Brazilian to clarify for us. (But perhaps not Nelson).

 

I don't think in UK law a third party such as a human rights group could sue for damages; it would have to be the aggrieved party. But then this isn't UK law.

[FLB]

Uk bbc front page too for those who don't have times subscription https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/65074698

 

The Guardian has it too: Nelson Piquet fined £780k for racist and homophobic comments about Lewis Hamilton | Formula One | The Guardian

[jonpollak]

. We could do with a Brazilian to clarify for us. (But perhaps not Nelson).
.

Inflation… now we need 5Million and 1 Brazilians
Jp

[ANF]

Em português: https://g1.globo.com...-hamilton.ghtml

Snippet:

Para o cálculo da multa, o juiz considerou uma doação que Piquet fez para a campanha de reeleição do ex-presidente Jair Bolsonaro, em 2022, no valor de R$ 501 mil.

De acordo com a decisão, como a Justiça Eleitoral limita o valor de doação a 10% dos rendimentos brutos do doador no ano anterior à eleição, Piquet teria arrecadado em 2021 ao menos R$ 5 milhões. O juiz considerou que o patrimônio do ex-piloto é superior a esse valor.

"Desta forma, considerando que o réu se propôs a pagar mais de R$ 500.000,00 (quinhentos mil reais) para ajudar na campanha eleitoral de um candidato à presidência república, objetivando certamente a melhoria do país segundo as suas ideologias, nada mais justo que fixar a quantia de R$ 5.000.000,00 (cinco milhões de reais) – que é o valor mínimo de sua renda bruta anual – para auxiliar o país a se desenvolver como nação e para estimular a mais rápida expurgação de atos discriminatórios."

 

[milestone 11]

Em português: https://g1.globo.com...-hamilton.ghtml
Snippet:

That article says the compensation will be paid to funds promoting racial equality and against discrimination against the LGBTQIA+ community.

[jonpollak]

What is the I and the A stand for at the end of the LGBTQ ?

Must keep up with these letters y’know.
Jp

[paulb]

Geez. Thats all I can safely say.

[jcbc3]

 

 

LGBTQIA+: An acronym used to signify Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer, Intersex, and Asexual people collectively.

[jcbc3]

But I am also a bit of a loss to understand this angle to the story. I thought Nelson was only racist towards Lewis.

[FLB]

Geez. Thats all I can safely say.

 

There's a significant part of me that's experiencing a kind of schadenfreude, says this Senna fan. 

 

 

The love for Senna post-Imola 1994 must *really* be getting under Piquet's skin. The comments he made about Senna during the 1988 season would now cost (nearly) anybody their drive, if not their career, and yet Piquet has learned exactly NOTHING...

Edited by FLB, 25 March 2023 - 14:00.

[ANF]

But I am also a bit of a loss to understand this angle to the story. I thought Nelson was only racist towards Lewis.

The homophobic comments were aimed at the Rosbergs according to the G1/Globo article.

[Sterzo]

But I am also a bit of a loss to understand this angle to the story. I thought Nelson was only racist towards Lewis.

Surely the angle is that to use racist or homophobic language is to insult all people of that race or orientation.

[pacificquay]

Hopefully this will make Nelson think a bit more in future

[ForzaFormula]

But I am also a bit of a loss to understand this angle to the story. I thought Nelson was only racist towards Lewis.

Obviously he's a general racist towards Black as so many are in Formula 1 and motorsports, hope Europe starts to step up in their fight for equality in Motorsports. 

[efuloni]

All the reports I've seen appear to use much the same wording, obviously from a news agency, and it's not entirely clear whether Piquet has been "fined" (a word used in the reports) or is paying damages (they use the word "compensation"). The two things are quite different. We could do with a Brazilian to clarify for us. (But perhaps not Nelson).

I don't think in UK law a third party such as a human rights group could sue for damages; it would have to be the aggrieved party. But then this isn't UK law.

Its compensation, not a fine.
The Class Action was issued by a NGO of racial diversity stating that Piquet's public comments caused social damage to all the black community, not only towards Hamilton. The judge agreed. The money will go to a fund dedicated to actions pro-lgbtqia+ and racial diversity rights.

Piquet can appeal (and most certanly will). Knowing brazilian courts, I dont think he has any chance of overturning the sentence, but he might get a reduction in the value of the compensation.

Edited by efuloni, 25 March 2023 - 15:33.

[piket]

Nelson should sue the British press. They used to call him "the Indian" back in the day 😁.
This is very much Human stain by Roth. Brasilian drivers were seen as racially mixed people in Europe back in the day , and now man gets sued for a word you hear on everyday Brasilian TV.

[917k]

He’s been a disgusting person for decades, so nothing new here…but trying to explain it away is just as bad.

[LewisMacca]

Nelson should sue the British press. They used to call him "the Indian" back in the day 😁.
This is very much Human stain by Roth. Brasilian drivers were seen as racially mixed people in Europe back in the day , and now man gets sued for a word you hear on everyday Brasilian TV.

Nice story but this is about Nelson being a racist not coming up with excuses for him.

[Gravelngrass]

Wonder what would have happened if Ham had looked like his mom…

[as65p]

Nice story but this is about Nelson being a racist not coming up with excuses for him.

A discussion with only a single opinion permitted... now that's "nice".

[pacificquay]

Oh so we are back to defending racism again?

 

Sometimes there genuinely is only one opinion that is valid.

[P123]

Wonder what would have happened if Ham had looked like his mom…

 

Nelson may have found other means to be a prat rather than racist tinted slurs? 

[Claudius]

I don’t understand, what happened to the freedom of expression? I’m not defending Piquet but did he threaten Lewis? Or guilty of defamation?

There are provocateurs burning the Quran, should they be fined? There are millions of people expressing racist views. Should all be fined?
Heck, we have posters in here defending Russias genocidal war. Where do you draw the line?

Again, I’m not defending Piquet but I think the situation is a bit unusual.

[LewisMacca]

“I’m not defending his racist comments at all, BUT….”

[Claudius]

Yes sure. All is black and white for you.

[P123]

I don’t understand, what happened to the freedom of expression? I’m not defending Piquet but did he threaten Lewis? Or guilty of defamation?

There are provocateurs burning the Quran, should they be fined? There are millions of people expressing racist views. Should all be fined?
Heck, we have posters in here defending Russias genocidal war. Where do you draw the line?

Again, I’m not defending Piquet but I think the situation is a bit unusual.

 

He's a public figure, who expressed a view in the media, delivered in a derogatory manner, using a word deemed to be racist by many.  A Brazilian organisation sued him in the Brazilian courts, and won.......  apart from that, not too interested in Piquet and neither he, his words, or his self-created predicament deserve much sympathy.  I think safe to say that if there is a line, Piquet crossed it.  Not just once.

Edited by P123, 25 March 2023 - 19:30.

[Claudius]

He's a public figure, who expressed a view in the media, delivered in a derogatory manner, using a word deemed to be racist by many. A Brazilian organisation sued him in the Brazilian courts, and won....... apart from that, not too interested in Piquet and neither he, his words, or his self-created predicament deserve much sympathy.

I just find it odd for a court to do this. I had no problem F1 and others canceling Piquet.

[Gravelngrass]

Nelson may have found other means to be a prat rather than racist tinted slurs?

What I meant was that Lewis would have been the same person (more or less) but with a different skin color. Would he then have considered himself “black”? Because the articles are labeling him a “black” person. But in what sense is Lewis “black”?

*I’m using quotes because for me these are just political ways of labeling.

[TecnoRacing]

The homophobic comments were aimed at the Rosbergs according to the G1/Globo article.

I don't think that's correct.

 

It is my understanding that Piqiet said something to the affect of -  Keke was valueless, just like his son - who only won his championship because the (slur) was distracted by being _______ in the _______.

[milestone 11]

Nelson should sue the British press. They used to call him "the Indian" back in the day .

Source?

[William Hunt]

But I am also a bit of a loss to understand this angle to the story. I thought Nelson was only racist towards Lewis.

 

As a famous (sports)person Nelson is a role model. When a role model makers public comments like these, the damage is (not just done to Lewis but) done to (Brazilian) society and in particular the group it's targeted it.

This is the reasoning behind the courtcase ruling. When an unknown Brazilian gives a racist or homophobic comment it doesn't have the same consequences as when a famous person does it in the media.

[highdownforce]

Nelson (and his son) besides all his racism and altright dogwhistling is also involved in environmental crimes.

Every penny took out of him is good news.

Edited by highdownforce, 26 March 2023 - 02:40.

[Sterzo]

Nelson should sue the British press. They used to call him "the Indian" back in the day .
This is very much Human stain by Roth. Brasilian drivers were seen as racially mixed people in Europe back in the day , and now man gets sued for a word you hear on everyday Brasilian TV.

If ever a comment smelt of bullshit... Why don't you name the publications? You do know it's impossible to sue "the press" don't you.

 

For the record, I've never read or heard of such a comment, and as a European I've never known anyone to call Brasilian drivers mixed race - and if any are, so what?

[917k]

I just find it odd for a court to do this. I had no problem F1 and others canceling Piquet.

Another dogwhistle 

[P123]

I just find it odd for a court to do this. I had no problem F1 and others canceling Piquet.

 

Oh yeah, no idea about the court case or how the courts work in Brazil.

 

 

What I meant was that Lewis would have been the same person (more or less) but with a different skin color. Would he then have considered himself “black”? Because the articles are labeling him a “black” person. But in what sense is Lewis “black”?

*I’m using quotes because for me these are just political ways of labeling.

 

I'm sure Lewis's life experiences would be different and how his views formed would be so too were his skin of lighter tone... views and experiences formed due to the likes of people like Piquet who see fit to use skin colour as a basis of insults.  I don't think Nelson gets a pass because Hamilton's mother is white.

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t understand, what happened to the freedom of expression? I’m not defending Piquet but did he threaten Lewis? Or guilty of defamation?

There are provocateurs burning the Quran, should they be fined? There are millions of people expressing racist views. Should all be fined?
Heck, we have posters in here defending Russias genocidal war. Where do you draw the line?

Again, I’m not defending Piquet but I think the situation is a bit unusual.

 

Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from the consequences of that expression.

[khaliweed]

Pure Wisdom. Freedom of expression doesn’t equate to consequences of freedom of Expression. Thank you PayasYouRace

Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from the consequences of that expression.

[pdac]

I don’t understand, what happened to the freedom of expression? I’m not defending Piquet but did he threaten Lewis? Or guilty of defamation?

There are provocateurs burning the Quran, should they be fined? There are millions of people expressing racist views. Should all be fined?
Heck, we have posters in here defending Russias genocidal war. Where do you draw the line?

Again, I’m not defending Piquet but I think the situation is a bit unusual.

 

Same as all freedoms - with freedom comes responsibility and sometimes penalties, if you are in opposition to the view of the majority. There is no country in the world where anyone is free to express themselves in whatever way they like without repercussions. The thought that we are all free is false and misguided.

[pdac]

If ever a comment smelt of bullshit... Why don't you name the publications? You do know it's impossible to sue "the press" don't you.

 

For the record, I've never read or heard of such a comment, and as a European I've never known anyone to call Brasilian drivers mixed race - and if any are, so what?

 

Tell that to Max Mosley.

[efuloni]

I don’t understand, what happened to the freedom of expression? I’m not defending Piquet but did he threaten Lewis? Or guilty of defamation?

There are provocateurs burning the Quran, should they be fined? There are millions of people expressing racist views. Should all be fined?
Heck, we have posters in here defending Russias genocidal war. Where do you draw the line?

Again, I’m not defending Piquet but I think the situation is a bit unusual.

1. Freedom of expression still exists, but you are accountable for what you say.
2. He didnt theaten. He was racist.
3. Yes, he is guilty, both socially and legally speaking.
4. Yes.
5. Yes.
6. There is and there will always be a line. Sure it differs, but, heck, IMHO, racism is surely over the line.

Edited by efuloni, 25 March 2023 - 22:47.

[Gravelngrass]

Oh yeah, no idea about the court case or how the courts work in Brazil.



I'm sure Lewis's life experiences would be different and how his views formed would be so too were his skin of lighter tone... views and experiences formed due to the likes of people like Piquet who see fit to use skin colour as a basis of insults. I don't think Nelson gets a pass because Hamilton's mother is white.

Not really sure why someone would imply that, but, in any case, I was trying to go beyond the whole Piquet thing, which most believe to be not right (not talking about the judge’s verdict here but what he actually said).

To me, Lewis, as a mixed race person, has lost a chance to truly build bridges by presenting himself as representing only or mostly one side of his ancestry. So, instead of acting as a sort of mediator, which he would be in the perfect position to do, he seems to have taken a more divisive position.

[pdac]

Not really sure why someone would imply that, but, in any case, I was trying to go beyond the whole Piquet thing, which most believe to be not right (not talking about the judge’s verdict here but what he actually said).

To me, Lewis, as a mixed race person, has lost a chance to truly build bridges by presenting himself as representing only or mostly one side of his ancestry. So, instead of acting as a sort of mediator, which he would be in the perfect position to do, he seems to have taken a more divisive position.

 

Not sure whether that's proactively or reactively, though.

[as65p]

Not sure whether that's proactively or reactively, though.

I'm bound to assume he experienced, to whatever degree, the nasty treatment of being non-white, so I guess it's natural in reaction to identify with and stand up for that part of you which is bullied. Certainly a reaction I could identify with, especially growing up.

[George Costanza]

I wonder if Bernie will help Nelson pay. I have to believe he will. After all, Bernie always defended and helped Nelson in the past.

Edited by George Costanza, 26 March 2023 - 00:25.

[as65p]

Nelson may have found other means to be a prat rather than racist tinted slurs? 

Almost certainly. Which touches on the delicate subject if Piquet dislikes Hamilton because he's non-white or if he just uses for everyone he dislikes (for various reasons) every means to insult he can think of. Knowing [the public] Piquet since the eighties, I'm pretty sure it's the latter.

Edited by as65p, 26 March 2023 - 00:30.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

Freedom of expression does not mean freedom from the consequences of that expression.

If that's not what freedom of expression means, then what the hell does freedom of expression actually mean?  You most certainly are not free to express something if the "consequences" are being fined $1 million by government.  I'm not defending Piquet here, I'm just attacking creepy Orwellian reasoning.