76 replies to this topic

[aportinga]

Personally I'd not add more gimicky attempts to generate artificial excitement that pretty much invalidates the previous 55-56 laps. 

 

 

Pretty much oval racing as a whole in so much as I recall - for sure the case with NASCAR!

[MaxisOne]

Unless you add an overtime rule, then there are enough laps to finish under green. That was my whole point. In Formula E they even add race laps tot the totals countering laps behind the safety car so they extend their race too just like NASCAR so the concept is not unique.. 

 

Nope .. no thanks.... Finish the damn race.

[ARTGP]

If they'd done a rolling restart at the 2nd red then everything would have been fine. These standing starts I'm okay with in the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the race but after that, no.

 

100% agree. Late race standing starts are bs. I would even go on to say there should not be any standing starts after the very first lap. There should only be 1 standing start per race weekend. The start. 

 

Fake jeopardy is not the DNA of F1 (well it hasn't been, and I'd hate to see it become a part of it). They need to use a less risky restart procedure after this kind of neutralization. 

 

Hulkenberg said the following:

Hulkenberg: Restart rules deployed in Melbourne not in F1's DNA (motorsport.com)

 

Regarding the final grid restart, he said: "It's always such a thrill, it's an element of entertainment, but as a driver and for teams, it's quite a strange feeling to have.

"You've worked all race long, you only have like a couple of laps left and then you're supposed to do a whole race start again.

"There's two sides to it. I think there's going to be a lot of discussions you have to review.
"There was an Aston [Fernando Alonso] that got turned around, but he was lucky he could come back to the race.

"But obviously that's a nightmare scenario for driver, you do a good race, you're in a good position. It was a red flag, you do a restart, you get hit by someone, it's not your mistake, and your whole weekend is wiped out.
 

"So I feel that's an element which is kind of artificial. And I'm not sure this is the DNA that I've known F1. I think there's going to be a little bit of discussion about this."

Edited by ARTGP, 05 April 2023 - 00:45.

[AustinF1]

If they'd done a rolling restart at the 2nd red then everything would have been fine. These standing starts I'm okay with in the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the race but after that, no.

Yep. Earlier I said 'no standing starts in the last 10 laps', but I'd be fine with ending them much earlier in the race. There are more drawbacks to them than benefits, imho.

[kumo7]

100% agree. Late race standing starts are bs. I would even go on to say there should not be any standing starts after the very first lap. There should only be 1 standing start per race weekend. The start.

Fake jeopardy is not the DNA of F1 (well it hasn't been, and I'd hate to see it become a part of it). They need to use a less risky restart procedure after this kind of neutralization.

Hulkenberg said the following:
Hulkenberg: Restart rules deployed in Melbourne not in F1's DNA (motorsport.com)

IMHO, could be both, for yes, because standing start just to make a messy debates about a race weekend, for no, as Hulkenberg put it

I think FOM likes to say yes and drivers no. Fans are confused and passive. In any cases you have some ups and downs when a race is restarted. Rolling start is not as hermetic as one might think.
Solution? Make use of delta with virtual safety car method, counting the laps from the moment of the restart?

Edited by kumo7, 05 April 2023 - 08:51.

[pdac]

100% agree. Late race standing starts are bs. I would even go on to say there should not be any standing starts after the very first lap. There should only be 1 standing start per race weekend. 

 

The whole thing about standing starts and safety cars is that they come from an era where there wasn't any better way to deal with situations. Ideally, if you have to interrupt the race, you want to somehow pause it, clear the problem and they resume once more. This has never been practically possible in the past, so they did the best they could.

 

But now there's no reason why the can't attempt to do this. Get the cars out of the way to clear track issues and then try to get them going again in the same order and with (as best you can) the same gaps. The VSC technology, with lap deltas allows something approaching this to happen. But, instead, they just look back at the past and say "it's always been done this way", without any thought to why it was done that way and whether it might have been done differently, it been possible to do so.

[kumo7]

The whole thing about standing starts and safety cars is that they come from an era where there wasn't any better way to deal with situations. Ideally, if you have to interrupt the race, you want to somehow pause it, clear the problem and they resume once more. This has never been practically possible in the past, so they did the best they could.

But now there's no reason why the can't attempt to do this. Get the cars out of the way to clear track issues and then try to get them going again in the same order and with (as best you can) the same gaps. The VSC technology, with lap deltas allows something approaching this to happen. But, instead, they just look back at the past and say "it's always been done this way", without any thought to why it was done that way and whether it might have been done differently, it been possible to do so.

I had typo, but saying the same I guess.

[Nemo1965]

The whole thing about standing starts and safety cars is that they come from an era where there wasn't any better way to deal with situations. Ideally, if you have to interrupt the race, you want to somehow pause it, clear the problem and they resume once more. This has never been practically possible in the past, so they did the best they could.

 

But now there's no reason why the can't attempt to do this. Get the cars out of the way to clear track issues and then try to get them going again in the same order and with (as best you can) the same gaps. The VSC technology, with lap deltas allows something approaching this to happen. But, instead, they just look back at the past and say "it's always been done this way", without any thought to why it was done that way and whether it might have been done differently, it been possible to do so.

 

I agree. I think it would be very easy to implement a rule that when the first lap is over, i.e: the leading car has past the finish line, there only will be rolling starts behind the safetycar. And if there is a red flag: you either line up in the pits and no work can be done on the car except tirewarmers, or you enter your pitbox to work on the car and then you cue behind the last car already standing in line.

 

Something like that?

[IrvTheSwerve]

I don’t see the problem at all with SC finishes. I find it silly meddling with rules and what-if scenarios if there is an accident or red flag in the closing stages…for something that happens very rarely anyway. They are going out of their way to create drama…and to be honest I’m losing track with the rule changes these days.

 

When the standing restarts were first mentioned I think most people were quite excited for them, me included, but it’s clear that they don’t really work…especially in the closing stages of a race. I don’t really want a ‘if the race is over 90% completed then it is a rolling start’ type of rule. If we use rolling starts, we use rolling starts.

 

The only thing I’m happy with is if we have a SC start due to rain, then we have a standing ‘re-start’ when the race actually starts, after some of the surface water has cleared.

[Bleu]

By the current rules, an incident requiring SC in the final two laps is an automatic end to the race. Even if the race would be red-flagged immediately, the, the penultimate lap will be concluded when the cars are in the pit lane and then the end is reached when cars go to the grid.  

[RedRabbit]

They should just finish the race if a red flag occurs so late in the race. If a red flag is thrown for a real red flag incident that is. I ratehr had them call it at lap 56 than the hour that followed after that.

This is the only solution. Stretching out 4 laps for another hour is just going to turn people off.

Eventually they stop tuning in and just watch the 6 minutes highlights video on YouTube, if even.

[SenorSjon]

By the current rules, an incident requiring SC in the final two laps is an automatic end to the race. Even if the race would be red-flagged immediately, the, the penultimate lap will be concluded when the cars are in the pit lane and then the end is reached when cars go to the grid.

By the old rules, a red flag after 75% would instantly end the race and the result was taken from 2 laps earlier.

[RedRabbit]

By the old rules, a red flag after 75% would instantly end the race and the result was taken from 2 laps earlier.

They need to go back to this, the current ideas will kill the sporting side.

[Planetdune]

I knew there was SOMETHING off on the lap count, but couldn't pin point what it was. I was sure there should have been at least one lap of racing after the second red flag.

[Jops14]

Just finish the race behind the safety car. Nobody wants this chaos and confusion. So a few fans find it a bit anti-climactic? So what? At least it’s a system everyone understood.

Overtime is stupid!

I still don’t understand why they restarted it after the magnussen issue, let alone the final one…. The 75% rule has been there for years, just call a result

Not like the fans missed anything with the farce they enacted

[AustinF1]

I still don’t understand why they restarted it after the magnussen issue, let alone the final one…. The 75% rule has been there for years, just call a result

Not like the fans missed anything with the farce they enacted

Is it still the rule? If it is, then they effed up, I guess.

[Bleu]

Is it still the rule? If it is, then they effed up, I guess.

 

Earlier the rule was that a red flag after 75% was an automatic end to the race. Now it isn't, but the race will be still be worth of full points if the race is not restarted (which happened after Bianchi's crash in Suzuka 2014)

[PayasYouRace]

I don't understand everyone pining for the 75% rule. Unless there's a serious afety issue preferably ting the race from being restarted, why not attempt to run the full distance? If there's 2 laps left I say fair enough because you just can't get a racing lap in, but with potentially a quarter of the race still to go with people's strategies to play outfits worth keeping going.

[SenorSjon]

I don't understand everyone pining for the 75% rule. Unless there's a serious afety issue preferably ting the race from being restarted, why not attempt to run the full distance? If there's 2 laps left I say fair enough because you just can't get a racing lap in, but with potentially a quarter of the race still to go with people's strategies to play outfits worth keeping going.

 

Races like Baku 2021 should have been called by the old rules. It took longer to resume the GP than what was normally left. Only few laps remaining. Very odd and unfair imo to have a standing start after such an event. 

 

OTOH, those rules were written in a time when you had a red flag (other than start crashes and restarts) once every couple of years. Cars were craned away under a local yellow and whenever a SC was called, you could go full speed to the pits. 

 

I read somewhere the Kubica crash in Canada only took 6 laps to clear. And Canada is quite a short lap. Now we need more time to sort the order, drive to SC by delta timing, unlap backmarkers, etc, etc.

[Victor]

As if we did not have enough rule changes every year, why do we keep suggestin new ones. F1 should not be like  Calvinball, where rules change as Calvin and Hobbs play it.

[pdac]

There's a difference between rules and procedures. Rules should, by and large, remain constant. But procedures can and should be refined. However, refinement implies improvement - not poorly thought out changes just because faults are found in the existing procedures.

[PayasYouRace]

Races like Baku 2021 should have been called by the old rules. It took longer to resume the GP than what was normally left. Only few laps remaining. Very odd and unfair imo to have a standing start after such an event. 

 

OTOH, those rules were written in a time when you had a red flag (other than start crashes and restarts) once every couple of years. Cars were craned away under a local yellow and whenever a SC was called, you could go full speed to the pits. 

 

I read somewhere the Kubica crash in Canada only took 6 laps to clear. And Canada is quite a short lap. Now we need more time to sort the order, drive to SC by delta timing, unlap backmarkers, etc, etc.

 

Well I agree that a standing start isn't ideal for a restart after a red flag. But that's why I argue for a rolling start with the delta time system being used to reset the gaps to what they were. Takes all the unfairness out.

 

So other than that, what's the problem? Stop the race, clean up, and get going again. So what if 15 years ago they sorted it out within 6 laps? We don't want drivers crashing into cranes and marshals anymore.

[SenorSjon]

That was a freak accident. We tend to overreact to every situation encountered.

If we red flag with intermediate gaps, why not do it everytime?

[ARTGP]

Well I agree that a standing start isn't ideal for a restart after a red flag. But that's why I argue for a rolling start with the delta time system being used to reset the gaps to what they were. Takes all the unfairness out.

 

So other than that, what's the problem? Stop the race, clean up, and get going again. So what if 15 years ago they sorted it out within 6 laps? We don't want drivers crashing into cranes and marshals anymore.

 

F1 has shown absolutely zero appetite for restoring deltas after neutralization periods. In fact, it looks like they are just calling SCs (Jeddah) and RFs (Melbourne) on purpose.  If they wanted fairness a lot of this stuff would be dealt with more often by local yellows or whatever that full course slow down thing is that we do where the drivers have to drive to sector deltas. 

 

The most realistic compromise we are going to get, vs their favorite flavor, is to just do a rolling restart near the end. 

Edited by ARTGP, 08 April 2023 - 17:54.

[PayasYouRace]

F1 has shown absolutely zero appetite for restoring deltas after neutralization periods. In fact, it looks like they are just calling SCs (Jeddah) and RFs (Melbourne) on purpose. If they wanted fairness a lot of this stuff would be dealt with more often by local yellows or whatever that full course slow down thing is that we do where the drivers have to drive to sector deltas.

So? That’s what I’d do. I want fairness.

[TheCaptain]

I'm at the point where I don't really care what "for the show" justification they come up with - I just want clear rules and guidelines so it doesn't always feel like they're making it up as they go along.      Like, why was there a rolling restart for the final lap in Australia whereas two laps before it was deemed a standing start?    The fact that it was metres from the finishing line shouldn't have made any difference to the rules.

 

Personally as others have said, if they want standing restarts then make that a rule up to say somewhere between 30%-50% race distance - ideally whilst there is still at least 1 typical pit window remaining.

 

I can see the argument of one lap of green flag racing - teams would just have to fuel accordingly to take into account the potential extra lap should it need to go over by one (in all likelihood the safety car running would probably not make much difference here).    However you'd need clear rules to govern what would happen if there was an accident on that lap that required a red flag - do you then do another lap?    If the drivers knew results would revert to the lap start positions (like Aus) then it's just going to incentive massive risk taking.    With it being the last lap I would suggest everyone could finish the lap, and worst case finish in the pit lane.      

[jonpollak]

For the love of god throw the damn yellow.

https://www.instagra...id=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Jp