114 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Fluff thread alert!

Inspired by watching a dozen Indycar drivers trade times at the Indy 500 qualifying today, and the high level of drivers currently employed in Formula E, and memories of really excellent all-round drivers being employed with factory WEC teams, and the far-off events in Super Formula, and, er, rallying and stock cars, I got wondering who the world's best, most proficient, most accomplished, quickest and most masterful driver is outside the 20 that can confidently call themselves Grand Prix drivers.

I also want to learn about a few drivers I haven't heard of.

You're welcome to say Daniel Ricciardo if you really want to.

Your thoughts?

[ANF]

I was just about to say Daniel Ricciardo.

[RPM40]

On F1 level its probably Daniel Ricciardo

 

But i'm going to throw Scott McLaughlin's name in there considering how successful he has been across both V8 Supercars, and then a switch to an entirely different form of racing in Indycar. Many drivers who come from single seaters (F1) have far more difficulty adapting. Its been quite a long time since someone fought at the very top of two different categories of racing like that.

[juicy sushi]

I think it depends on what you mean by best. Most accomplished is probably Scott Dixon. Most raw talent is probably Scotty Mac or Nick Cassidy. Most likely to be immediately competitive in F1? Alex Palou.

[ANF]

Quickest round the Nürburgring Nordschleife in the dark at this very moment may be Dries Vanthoor:



/off-topic

[Spillage]

Sebastian Vettel. Otherwise Josef Newgarden.

[krapmeister]

Scott McLaughlin is a no brainer for a list like this.

I'll throw in the obligatory mention of Shane Van Gisbergen.

And depending on how he progresses over the next year or two, we might also be throwing in Augustin Canapino's name into any future 'Best driver's outside F1' list as well...

Edited by krapmeister, 21 May 2023 - 00:39.

[HerbieMcQueen]

On the basis that the easiest/closest method we've got to compare drivers across time is adaptability, I'll go with Scotty Mac. Palou would do a job in F1 too.

[Nathan]

Palou.  Interested how he is ranked below McLaughlin.

[RPM40]

Palou.  Interested how he is ranked below McLaughlin.

 

It depends how you rank them. Palou has raced open wheelers for his entire career, and while I would rate him as currently a stronger Indycar Driver, McLaughlin grew up racing touring cars and absolutely dominated the V8 Supercars championship before switching to Indycar, an entirely different form of driving and is now one of the top drivers in that championship.

 

I completely see the argument for either way, but when talking about 'most accomplished' to stand out amongst two different racing disciplines with two very different driving styles is arguably more impressive than just one.

 

I would also rate Shane Van Gisbergen very highly for similar reasons. Even if McLaughlin never wins an Indycar championship, for him to switch from touring cars into open wheelers and to compete with the very best indycar drivers and win races, is already a huge achievement. Especially since he's had more success than many career open wheel racers.

 

However that is simply a personal preference to how you rate 'best driver' and what that means.

Edited by RPM40, 21 May 2023 - 01:24.

[ARTGP]

Sebastian Ogier? Sebastian Loeb? They are part time, retired rally drivers who can still win rallies at the drop of a hat. Ogier with his part time schedule was leading the WRC championship 1 or 2 rounds ago, against full-season drivers . I also think rallying is harder than circuit racing. 

Edited by ARTGP, 21 May 2023 - 03:35.

[krapmeister]

It depends how you rank them. Palou has raced open wheelers for his entire career, and while I would rate him as currently a stronger Indycar Driver, McLaughlin grew up racing touring cars and absolutely dominated the V8 Supercars championship before switching to Indycar, an entirely different form of driving and is now one of the top drivers in that championship.

I completely see the argument for either way, but when talking about 'most accomplished' to stand out amongst two different racing disciplines with two very different driving styles is arguably more impressive than just one.

I would also rate Shane Van Gisbergen very highly for similar reasons. Even if McLaughlin never wins an Indycar championship, for him to switch from touring cars into open wheelers and to compete with the very best indycar drivers and win races, is already a huge achievement. Especially since he's had more success than many career open wheel racers.

However that is simply a personal preference to how you rate 'best driver' and what that means.

Don't forget McLaughlin won in LMP2 at the Sebring 12hrs this year too

[ARTGP]

Tom Blomqvist has looked pretty good lately. 

[krapmeister]

Yes and it is looking like we will be seeing him in Indycar next season too 👍

[ARTGP]

If it was still early 2010s I would have said Andre Lotterer. 

 

Early 2000s I'd say Tom Kristensen and Allan Mcnish. 

 

It's no coincidence that some of these guys had F1 test.

Edited by ARTGP, 21 May 2023 - 03:37.

[jonpollak]

Too Tall Nielsen.
Jp

[H0R]

Only can comment on Indycar, but there are some exceptionally strong drivers in the grid, like O'Ward, Newgarden, Palou, McLaughlin and of course Dixon, even if he is most definitely past his prime.

Edited by H0R, 21 May 2023 - 05:23.

[Rediscoveryx]

Coltol Herta has fallen off the radar quite sharply since his near-move to Toro Rosso.

[F1Frog]

Excellent question!

 

It is quite difficult, of course, because drivers' ability changes depending on the series. Brendon Hartley would perhaps have been a contender for this not that long ago, but when he got his F1 chance he was probably the weakest driver on the grid. Similarly, Nyck de Vries who won the Formula e championship two years ago, now looks like the weakest F1 driver this year. But on the other hand, Antonio Giovinazzi went from beating a world champion in Formula 1 to being the worst driver in Formula e last year, and although Romain Grosjean and Marcus Ericsson are top drivers in IndyCar, it is not like they are the class of the field.

 

So here are some of my suggestions:

 

Obviously Daniel Ricciardo and Sebastian Vettel have to be candidates, and Ricciardo could probably still do a very decent job in another team despite being horrendous at McLaren.

 

In Formula 2, Theo Pourchaire is probably the strongest driver so I would include him. Felipe Drugovich as well, as last year's champion.

 

In IndyCar, Alex Palou, Pato O'Ward and Scott McLaughlin perhaps, and I agree with those giving high praise to McLaughlin considering what he used to drive. Scott Dixon and Will Power might not quite be at their best anymore but not long ago would certainly have been contenders. Possibly Josef Newgarden or Alexander Rossi, and Colton Herta got close to a drive last year. Not long ago I remember Felix Rosenqvist was a driver many thought was destined for F1. And of course, Grosjean and Ericsson have already been in Formula 1 and Grosjean was one of the best on the grid for half a season in 2013.

 

In Formula e, I would say that Stoffel Vandoorne was clearly better than De Vries when they were teammates and could do a decent job in Formula 1 again, not being as bad as the stats suggest last time. But Jean-Eric Vergne has comfortably outperformed him this year, and is the best driver in Formula e at the moment, so I think Vergne could be a contender. Mitch Evans, Jake Dennis and Nick Cassidy are perhaps the next group and could all compete in F1. I am less convinced by Wehrlein and Da Costa, but as Wehrlein already did well in Formula 1, perhaps other Formula e drivers could do even better. A few years ago, Sebastien Buemi would probably have been the leading contender for this title considering his WEC performances as well, and I believe he is the only driver Helmut Marko said he regrets letting go, and Lucas di Grassi could also have had another shot.

 

I would also like to suggest that Ash Sutton could be very competitive in a series like IndyCar, although I hope he stays in the BTCC.

 

Overall, I think that if any driver outside Formula 1 were to suddenly drive a leading F1 car, Daniel Ricciardo is the one I would most expect to do well. But if he were to drive like he did at McLaren, there are many other far better candidates. I will go with the driver who wasn't quite as good as him at Toro Rosso, Jean-Eric Vergne.

[ArnageWRC]

Sebastian Ogier? Sebastian Loeb? They are part time, retired rally drivers who can still win rallies at the drop of a hat. Ogier with his part time schedule was leading the WRC championship 1 or 2 rounds ago, against full-season drivers . I also think rallying is harder than circuit racing. 

 

Loeb has certainly proved himself outside of WRC - and has been competitive in almost everything, including a 2nd at Le Mans. Ogier not so much, obviously a WRC great, but so far pretty average in anything else. I'm not sure the modern WRC drivers are as well rounded as they once were, as they don't need to be - all events are a 2 and a bit day sprint. 

 

SVG seems to be quick in everything, and with so little experience in rallying was setting quick times in WRC2 during RallyNZ......

[Mat13]

Where’s Nico Rosberg now?

[Sterzo]

I'm going to choose three. One's probably too "old" - Josef Newgarden.

One's probably too young, but inspired by the thread on Verstappen's ascent to F1, I'll name him anyway - Oliver Bearman.

The third is nominated because Risil wants a driver he hasn't heard of. Me! Dominant winner of a 1997 Croydon indoor kart meeting, easily beating nervous Tracey from accounts and 90 kilo Mike the rugby player.

[Cliff]

Ricky Bobby.

[Collombin]

Dominant winner of a 1997 Croydon indoor kart meeting, easily beating nervous Tracey from accounts and 90 kilo Mike the rugby player.

See any precocious 12 year old kids from Stevenage hanging around?

[DeKnyff]

If it was still early 2010s I would have said Andre Lotterer. 

 

Early 2000s I'd say Tom Kristensen and Allan Mcnish. 

 

It's no coincidence that some of these guys had F1 test.

 

Allan McNish had a complete F1 year with Toyota in 2002. I don't remember him being special. Mika Salo outqualified him along the season (and also outscored him, but race results were not really significant, due to the poor reliability of the car).

[PlatenGlass]

Is this best as in who would do best in F1? Because drivers have a range of skills that can be suited to different areas.

[noriaki]

Sebastian Ogier? Sebastian Loeb? They are part time, retired rally drivers who can still win rallies at the drop of a hat. Ogier with his part time schedule was leading the WRC championship 1 or 2 rounds ago, against full-season drivers . I also think rallying is harder than circuit racing. 

 

Not sure about either. As much as I rate Loeb, he is already 5-10 years past his best before date.... sure, he still has "it" to bully his juniors on his comfort zone - but so does JPM, too! 

 

Ogier, on the other hand, is still definitely one of the top three rally drivers on Earth, and the best ever at Monte Carlo - but over a full year, he would definitely struggle to establish dominance against Rovanpera. Since 2022, he has been cherry-picking his favourite events, and therefore often gets a very favourable starting position compared to Rovanpera (and Tanak, who is probably as mighty on the special stages, but less mighty in politics), so it makes sense he would win rallies - but those wins haven't really been just at the drop of the hat, either. He has "only" won 3 times out of 9 starts since he went part time. 

 

---

 

Assuming we stick to road courses though, I think there is only one answer, even though Dixon, SVG, Cassidy and Lawson have all got pretty damn sweet CV's too. Simply has to be Scotty Mac. Good god, the man is fantastic. 

 

this advert was not brought to you by Kiwi Tourism Board

Edited by noriaki, 21 May 2023 - 11:41.

[Risil]

Is this best as in who would do best in F1? Because drivers have a range of skills that can be suited to different areas.

Interpret the question how you want!

[ARTGP]

Allan McNish had a complete F1 year with Toyota in 2002. I don't remember him being special. Mika Salo outqualified him along the season (and also outscored him, but race results were not really significant, due to the poor reliability of the car).

 

That's the catch isn't it. Most of the people being named are not F1 drivers and we have not much evidence that they would be any good in F1 cars, despite looking very sharp in other categories. We ever have F2 drivers (F1 feeder) who don't set the world on fire in F1. Sebastian Buemi, Neel Jani, Andre Lotterer etc etc.   The Australian and Kiwi drivers being mentioned in here could easily suffer the same fate in F1. 

 

As I understand it, the question isn't, "Who isn't in F1 that deserves to be in F1" because being fast in another category and being fast in F1 are vastly different things. We could never know. 

Edited by ARTGP, 21 May 2023 - 12:21.

[Anderis]

Alain Prost.

 

 

[Chick0]

Kamui Kobayashi

Sebastien Buemi

Sebastien Vettel

Daniel Ricciardo

[GlenWatkins]

Interpret the question how you want!

Joe Tanto 

[RacingFan10]

Ricciardo - While he seems to be this kind of driver that flops with certain cars, with RB/Newey cars he can shine

 

Palou - Best non-F1 single seater driver out there? Became IndyCar champion with 24 y/o and beat 5x champion Scott Dixon as team mate.

 

And finally... maybe Kalle Rovanpera? Impressive to become rally champion so young

[Nobody]

Kimi

[AnttiK]

Kalle Rovanperä

[Ruusperi]

My knowledge of drivers outside F1 is limited, but Sébastien Ogier has already shown that he hasn't lost any pace, with two victories in WRC this year. Many regard Kalle Rovanperä even better than Ogier at this point, and he's only 22 years old. Mattias Ekström won Race of Champions this year, but that's hardly a serious competition, more like off-season fun for driver, so it cannot be compared to winning full-season championship.

 

Retired drivers are difficult to judge. I'd say 30% of the competence stems from motivation. If Vettel was very motivated, he could still be the best. But I doubt he is. Nico Rosberg hasn't raced for such a long time that he'd probably be seconds off the pace.

 

In F2, there hasn't been single dominating driver since Stoffel Vandoorne, but I don't regard Vandoorne as the best driver anymore. Let's see what Andrea Kimi Antonelli can do when he reaches F2.

[Gravelngrass]

Sebastiens Loeb and Ogier.

[Beri]

Joe Tanto 

 

On that note; Jean Girard.

 

But on a more serious one, I'm surprised no one seriously mentioned Brendon Hartley, other than on a critical note. 4 time WEC champion and 2 times 2nd placed in the championship. 3 time Le Mans 24 hours winner and 2 times 2nd placed. All in the span of 8 years where he has spend about a year and a half in F1 as well. Since leaving F1, he has competed in 24 races, won 8, been 2nd 13 times and 3rd once.

Can't say that is too shabby. And dont tell me "He's in the best team" Because even then you will have to deliver, and this lad does. His spell in F1 was at a team who favoured his teammate all year long. That doesnt mean that he should not have done better, but it does mean that he didnt get a fair shot. He is better than many think.

[scheivlak]

Alex Palou!

[PlatenGlass]

Damon Hill.

[Reinmuster]

Valentino Rossi 

[HP]

See any precocious 12 year old kids from Stevenage hanging around?

 

If Lewis Hamilton had kids..

[loki]

Santino Ferrucci… 

[southernstars]

Santino Ferrucci… 

 

What, that racist butthole? Nah, screw him, he should never have been allowed to race again, and it's an indictment on Indycar that they welcomed him with open arms after he was thrown out of Europe in disgrace.

 

Anyway, I don't count retired drivers for such what-ifs, because obviously, they have chosen to no longer race.

 

Daniel is an obvious answer, as is Scotty McLaughlin, and Will Power. I'll throw an additional name into the mix: Craig Lowndes. What, oh what might have been had Helmet Marko not screwed over that insanely talented Australian when he came to Europe...?

[rghojai]

Kyle Larson.

[Reddington]

Seb and Danny Ric.

[pUs]

If the definition is about proven F1 potential I'd say Vettel, Ricciardo, Räikkönen, Grosjean. I believe they are the ones who could jump in at perform at a very high level straight away.

Future / untapped potential is a different matter though. So hard to tell.

[NickeyF1]

Drivers who have not raced in F1 yet:

 

Alex Palou

Scott McLaughlin (I'd love to see him in F1 one day, not very realistic though)

Josef Newgarden

 

Shane Van Gisbergen

 

and soon surely Andrea Kimi Antonelli

[Colbul1]

I think Pato O'Ward has stepped up this season, he is consistently fast, likeable and would fit into F1 comfortably.

[kumo7]

How about Conway, Mike Conway?