27 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Baja California officials have stated the gunmen in a vehicle opened fire on people and vehicles at the rally. Reports indicate that at least 10 people have died in the incident, while several people have been injured in the clash.

The incident was attended to by units from the army, navy, and state and local police.

Several reports have attributed the incident to a clash between organised crime groups, but no group has claimed responsibility.

"I am horrified by the reports of an appalling attack at the Baja California Rally in Mexico," said Ben Sulayem in a short statement issued by the FIA.

"Motorsport events should be safe places for participants and spectators.

"On behalf of the whole FIA family our thoughts and prayers are with the victims of this senseless violence."

https://www.autospor...ttack/10472194/

[Risil]

God, that's awful

[GlenWatkins]

Rival cartels shoot out..

[PayasYouRace]

Wow that’s terrible. The sort of thing you’d never imagine affecting a motor racing event outside of an action movie. Shocking!

[loki]

According to well placed people in the Baja racing scene it was a cartel on cartel hit that took out bystanders.

[FLB]

According to well placed people in the Baja racing scene it was a cartel on cartel hit that took out bystanders.

Has SCORE had any reaction so far? 

[loki]

Has SCORE had any reaction so far? 

No official statement just yet.  This was a local promoter, nearly all Mexican nationals in the race.  Some scuttlebutt is that it was an attempted hit on the mayor of San Vicente who has his own questionable ties.

 

Word for the 500 is more Federales and perhaps cancelling pre-running which opened Sat.  The race is June 3 and for the 500 not many usually show this early unless they live down there.  The cartels for the most part are good at distancing themselves from directly targeting gringos because it brings too much heat.  However outside of the events it’s not difficult to get caught in a crossfire.

Edited by loki, 22 May 2023 - 16:20.

[Jim Thurman]

But, was this even a motorsport event or competition? Video I've seen just shows Can-Am vehicles with no numbers of any kind. It comes off more like a gathering of off-road enthusiasts or recreational than a competition. Did it have any sanctioning of any kind?

 

The term "rally" often as used in North America catches out a lot of European folks, and I can't help but wonder if this is the case here. Many U.S. "rallys" were loose, informal gatherings that didn't involve competition of any kind, or were fun events more along the lines of scavenger hunts. Often these were sponsored or sanctioned by work related club/activity groups or even churches.

[ANF]

El País called it "a rally" and cited local media as well as social media posts yesterday: "The rally — known in the area as Chacanillazo — began Saturday in morning on a beach in the city. As reported by Zeta Tijuana and other media, citing municipal police reports, the attack began after 2:00 p.m., in the town of San Vicente, south of Ensenada." https://english.elpa...california.html

Some reports by Zeta Tijuana in Spanish:
https://zetatijuana....rantes-del-caf/
https://zetatijuana....de-san-vicente/
https://zetatijuana....ento-el-ataque/
https://zetatijuana....temente-armado/

[Jim Thurman]

I know it was called a "rally", but that's my point, the term means different things in the U.S. (and perhaps northern Mexico too).

 

There have been many, many events in the U.S called a "rally" that are nothing like what is considered a rally elsewhere around the world. Many U.S "rally" events were not competitions.

 

I've had this discussion several times over in working with Motorsport Memorial. And, I suspect I might have to lay that out here as well.

[DeKnyff]

Some local media report that the shootout happened at the rally "El Cachanillazo", which sounds like an organized event. However, I haven't found any information about such race prior to the shootings which keeps me in doubt. Could it have been a kind of "private" race?

 

it seems that the shootout started when armed men got out of a van and opened fire against one of the drivers, Alonso Arámbula aka "El Trébol" ("The Clover"), a known drug trafficker. It also seems that some members of The Trebol's gang responded the fire. At the end of the day, ten dead (including El Trébol) and seven wounded. It's never clear in the press if the dead were simple bystanders ,drivers or other gang members. At th emoment of the attacks, the race seemed stationary.

[Myrvold]

This is "weird". I could've sworn I read about this days ago. A shooting at a rally. But it happened yesterday?

[Jim Thurman]

Well, "The Sturgis Rally" is an organized event, and these U.S. "rallies" that I mention were organized, but rarely were they sanctioned or organized by any formal motorsport group. Was this Mexican rally sanctioned by any motorsport group in Mexico?

 

The SCCA also sanctioned these "fun run" type rallies in the U.S., but more often than not they were organized by private clubs (churches/social clubs, work related clubs, etc.)

 

It was 1973 before there was a formal rally championship in the U.S., with the earliest competitive stage rallying event I'm aware of in the U.S. taking place in 1969.

[ANF]

I know it was called a "rally", but that's my point, the term means different things in the U.S. (and perhaps northern Mexico too).
 
There have been many, many events in the U.S called a "rally" that are nothing like what is considered a rally elsewhere around the world. Many U.S "rally" events were not competitions.
 
I've had this discussion several times over in working with Motorsport Memorial. And, I suspect I might have to lay that out here as well.

I know what you mean, and after watching the videos below I'm not sure I would call it a rally.

[Jim Thurman]

I think someone in the European media that doesn't know or understand the different usage of "rally" in North America, just assumed and went to Ben Sulayem for a comment.

[FLB]

I think someone in the European media that doesn't know or understand the different usage of "rally" in North America, just assumed and went to Ben Sulayem for a comment.

Off-road desert rallies are his background. The Dakar has had to deal with that kind of thing.

Edited by FLB, 22 May 2023 - 18:09.

[loki]

This is "weird". I could've sworn I read about this days ago. A shooting at a rally. But it happened yesterday?

It happened Saturday.

[loki]

Off-road desert rallies are his background. The Dakar has had to deal with that kind of thing.

Rally raid though not desert endurance.  This was a desert endurance race.  A rally raid is in stages.  In Baja some locals refer to a race as a rally.

[milestone 11]

Some local media report that the shootout happened at the rally "El Cachanillazo", which sounds like an organized event. However, I haven't found any information about such race prior to the shootings which keeps me in doubt. Could it have been a kind of "private" race?
 
it seems that the shootout started when armed men got out of a van and opened fire against one of the drivers, Alonso Arámbula aka "El Trébol" ("The Clover"), a known drug trafficker. It also seems that some members of The Trebol's gang responded the fire. At the end of the day, ten dead (including El Trébol) and seven wounded. It's never clear in the press if the dead were simple bystanders ,drivers or other gang members. At th emoment of the attacks, the race seemed stationary.

it's not a competition, just a bunch of buggy boys https://m.youtube.co...h?v=0PjzlcPJfm0

A rally in the US is, as jim Thurman says, a large get together. I'm led to believe the Iowa biker rally can get more than a little out of hand.

[loki]

it's not a competition, just a bunch of buggy boys https://m.youtube.co...h?v=0PjzlcPJfm0

A rally in the US is, as jim Thurman says, a large get together. I'm led to believe the Iowa biker rally can get more than a little out of hand.

It’s an event with bragging rights between the participants.  This was the 5th year.  Hopefully the poster for the event I've attached is visible.  According to someone that was there (for the Baja 500 pre-run but was watching this event) an altercation happened prior to any videos of the event and appeared to be local gang types not big time cartel.

 

Edited by loki, 22 May 2023 - 20:31.

[Jim Thurman]

it's not a competition, just a bunch of buggy boys https://m.youtube.co...h?v=0PjzlcPJfm0

A rally in the US is, as jim Thurman says, a large get together. I'm led to believe the Iowa biker rally can get more than a little out of hand.

"Rally" in the U.S. can mean many things. Political rally, motorcycle rally, etc.  ...but it also can refer to time-speed-distance events or even stage rally racing events. And, even rally raids.

 

But, motorsport events called "rally" in the U.S. can range from a true stage rally to a church group or work related club gathering with "participants" piled 4 or more into station wagons or vans and conducted on open streets/roads at the speed limit 

[Jim Thurman]

Off-road desert rallies are his background. The Dakar has had to deal with that kind of thing.

Oh, yeah, I'm aware of why they moved the event from North Africa. But, I still stand by the writer not realizing the broad meaning of "rally" for events in the U.S. (and obviously, in this case, Northern Mexico) or understanding that.

 

I mean, how many competitive events have a scheduled break for snacks (shrimp and ceviche)?

[Risil]

Does test cricket count as a competitive event?

[loki]

I mean, how many competitive events have a scheduled break for snacks (shrimp and ceviche)?

 

Technically it’s billed as a “pit stop”.    Sounds like it was more for the drivers than the car.

 

That sort of gathering is also called a “poker run” in US desert racing circles.  The difference is you stop at 5 or 7 check points and get a playing card.  At the end of the event you compare your card hands and the best hand wins some sort of pot or prize.  The closest thing I can think of in road racing would be a track day.  Though no shrimp or ceviche.  It was BBQ or dogs and burgers.

[Jim Thurman]

Technically it’s billed as a “pit stop”.    Sounds like it was more for the drivers than the car.

 

That sort of gathering is also called a “poker run” in US desert racing circles.  The difference is you stop at 5 or 7 check points and get a playing card.  At the end of the event you compare your card hands and the best hand wins some sort of pot or prize.  The closest thing I can think of in road racing would be a track day.  Though no shrimp or ceviche.  It was BBQ or dogs and burgers.

loki, exactly. A "Poker Run" was the first thing I thought of, but I didn't want to try to explain that 

 

EDIT: Yeah, but a 3-6 hour "pit stop"?

Edited by Jim Thurman, 23 May 2023 - 20:04.

[Jim Thurman]

Does test cricket count as a competitive event?

I should have typed: competitive motorsport events.

 

I dunno whether it does or not, Risil. Depends on who you ask. Even some of the most nationalistic Brits here don't seem to want to claim cricket 

[Risil]

Depends on who's playing as well 

[milestone 11]

Does test cricket count as a competitive event?

Absolutely, on occasion. Rather like F1, not always.