100 replies to this topic

[Risil]

No time for a big thread but was how much of a blunder was Alonso's first pitstop as the rain was coming in? Did he lose a chance at a win? Was it a risk worth taking?

[PayasYouRace]

With the gap after Max stopped, in think Fernando would have been in the lead had they gone straight to inters. Big mistake but easily made in such tricky conditions.

[Borko]

They wanted to secure the second place, it's easy to be smart now

[Ferrim]

It would have won them the race, and yes it was risky to pit for inters. Stay out, then! Wait and see, he had plenty of room behind. Worst case, he stays second (or he crashes, but then why pit and take dries anyway?).

If you pit at that moment, you take inters. It was a bad, I would say terrible call.

Edited by Ferrim, 28 May 2023 - 15:01.

[Disgrace]

Yeah, they blinked one lap too early. But I guess not totally incomprehensible given that they were on probably the worst tyres of anybody, old hards.

[Bliman]

It was a big blunder. It was very clear they had to go for inters.

[Bliman]

Yeah, they blinked one lap too early. But I guess not totally incomprehensible given that they were on probably the worst tyres of anybody, old hards.

Max was on mediums.

[ensign14]

They could get all the data from Stroll on inters, but he palpably was not good enough to exploit them, and presumably was feeding back that there was no advantage.  The risks of nepotism.

[Primo]

The blunder was when they did not stop for an undercut at Lap 45-46. With new mediums, he would have been faster when the rain came AND known when to stop for Inters. Keeping him out made zero sense.

[Showty]

They wanted to secure the second place, it's easy to be smart now

There was absolutely no threat behind him that justifies that pit stop.

If any, this call was that threat.

Edited by Showty, 28 May 2023 - 15:10.

[KWSN - DSM]

Made zero sense, I think they threw the win away.

[Ruudbackus]

It was a wrong call but I don't think it costs them the victory. I wonder whose call it was to go to mediums. Was it the pitwall or was it Alonso's

[Disgrace]

There was absolutely no threat behind him that justifies that pit stop.

If any, this call was that threat.

 

The threat was Alonso dropping it in wet conditions on old dry tyres. It was a bad call, but let's not pretend they did it for no reason at all.

[Ruudbackus]

It was pretty clear Verstappen was going to keep his tyres alive to react to a possible pitstop from Ashton and make them pit first. I think thats what they tried to do here, to push Redbull into a pitstop too, but by the time Max finished that lap the rain was to heavy to go on slicks for redbull.

 

Redbull always had the upper hand strategy wise, they could react to what ashton behind was doing. Had Ashton pitted earlier, RedBull would have reacted the lap thereafter. 

[Showty]

The threat was Alonso dropping it in wet conditions on old dry tyres. It was a bad call, but let's not pretend they did it for no reason at all.

You said it yourself.

Alonso dropping it in wet conditions on old dry tyres.

So you just don't send him out there again, in wet conditions, on dry tyres.

Of course, there must be a reason, we might never get to know it or understand it.

[Bliman]

The threat was Alonso dropping it in wet conditions on old dry tyres. It was a bad call, but let's not pretend they did it for no reason at all.

This does not make any sense.

[balaclava]

Lance being utterly useless had the team lost. Just after Alo pitted teams started to put inters on.

[Disgrace]

You said it yourself.

Alonso dropping it in wet conditions on old dry tyres.

So you just don't send him out there again, in wet conditions, on dry tyres.

Of course, there must be a reason, we might never get to know it or understand it.

 

If they believed the rain would stop, fresh dry tyres over old dry tyres makes a lot of sense. Had they been right, they would have looked like geniuses. But they reacted too soon, and it didn't transpire that way.

[WKAYE]

It was a wrong call but I don't think it costs them the victory. I wonder whose call it was to go to mediums. Was it the pitwall or was it Alonso's

 

The call was from the Pitwall. Alonso asked if they shouldn't be going for inters. It was on the world feed.

[Bliman]

If they believed the rain would stop, fresh dry tyres over old dry tyres makes a lot of sense. Had they been right, they would have looked like geniuses. But they reacted too soon, and it didn't transpire that way.

No it wouldn't be a genius move. What they did was very stupid in any circumstance. Either you stay out and wait like Max did or gamble early and put on inters. And that gamble was a very safe gamble.

[Disgrace]

No it wouldn't be a genius move. What they did was very stupid in any circumstance. Either you stay out and wait like Max did or gamble early and put on inters. And that gamble was a very safe gamble.

 

Staying out came with a lot of risk on those tyres. Verstappen hit the barrier, but got away with it. They weren't sitting in a luxurious position, but a fraught one.

 

So while they got the call wrong, which was a big shame, I really don't think it was as totally stupid as I'm reading here.

[HP]

The only thing that makes ever sense to me is if Alonso had getting stuck behind any other car that was still running dry tyres. But then, was that even possible? If it's too dry, then the slicks would been faster, had it rained harder the inters would have eaten the dry tyre car. So

 

maybe the strategy team was new to this scenario and the thing messed up completely?

[AncientLurker]

Should have gone to inters and risked it for the win. They had the time in hand for a second stop, as demonstrated, so it was not a huge gamble if it didn’t work. The bigger gamble was not going for the win. Huge mistake.

[Bliman]

Staying out came with a lot of risk on those tyres. Verstappen hit the barrier, but got away with it. They weren't sitting in a luxurious position, but a fraught one.

So while they got the call wrong, which was a big shame, I really don't think it was as totally stupid as I'm reading here.

So many were hitting the walls and such but lets go in to put on DRY tires. And you are saying it wasn't a stupid move. Like I said you make no sense. You either wait till the very last moment like Max did who was on even worse tires or you put on inters. It is not complicated and also has nothing to do with hindsight.

[Disgrace]

Marko said on Servus TV that even if ALO did go to the inters immediately, they would have been in front.
Krack said that the rain was not on the radar and it just started really after they pitted. They thought it will be a short shower, but they didn't want to risk it with old hards in the rain. No chance against VER in the dry, ALO managed, but VER managed too and was able to pull away...
 
Further updates in Barcelona and Montreal.

 

Here Krack confirms exactly what I have been speculating. They probably weren't even thinking about Verstappen and the win, as much as us fans would like, but protecting themselves.

[flyboym3]

Its irrelevant the AM was too slow to be a threat, Alonso easily got dropped.

All rbr was going to do was mimic Alonso strategy and keep their lead. Brawn has shown us countless times how to do it from p1.

[TomNokoe]

I've checked live timing and yes they lost the win.

Alonso was 8s behind when he pit. He gained 5s even on his new Mediums. Inters would have been even better.

Max's inlap was really bad. Tsunoda on inters caught up by 8s in S2 alone.

[Ruudbackus]

The call was from the Pitwall. Alonso asked if they shouldn't be going for inters. It was on the world feed.

Ok, I somehow missed that. 

[dweller23]

It was a big mistake overshadowed then by Ferrari and Haas strategists.

[Muppetmad]

Opportunities like this won't come along everyday, so Aston Martin should have seized it.

[jwill189]

Fernando was in a weird spot. Although everyone on the dry tyres was losing tyre temperature, the rain had more of a negative effect on the hards. I held my breath as Alonso almost lost it in turn 7.

 

Alonso had to pit, and at the moment he did, the other half of the track wasn't saturated, and he was worried about burning up the inters. You can only make the best decision based on the current track conditions, so mediums did make sense at the time. It was only after he pitted did the downpour happen. Bad luck just like Russia 2021.

[jonklug]

Well we can obviously say it was a mistake now with information they didn't have then, but at the time it was a gamble. If the rain remains a very light drizzle that then stops completely, Fernando is in a great spot. It was just awkward and unfortunate for him. Still a great drive without putting a foot wrong all weekend.

[Gareth]

Really odd decision. They were running a strategy of a long first stint to give them the opportunity to take advantage of any weirdness. Then some potential weirdness started to develop, and they immediately took their flexibility off the table.

Bonkers. I understand if they thought dry tyres were the right call, they’re not clairvoyant, but if you think it’s probably dries you stay out.

[naukkis]

I've checked live timing and yes they lost the win.

Alonso was 8s behind when he pit. He gained 5s even on his new Mediums. Inters would have been even better.

Max's inlap was really bad. Tsunoda on inters caught up by 8s in S2 alone.

 

Yeah. Alonso pitted just right time for Inters - but took mediums. He was only ~17 seconds behind Max after second pit stop for Inters - with inters at first stop he would have cleared Max by big margin.

[Ruudbackus]

Really odd decision. They were running a strategy of a long first stint to give them the opportunity to take advantage of any weirdness. Then some potential weirdness started to develop, and they immediately took their flexibility off the table.

Bonkers. I understand if they thought dry tyres were the right call, they’re not clairvoyant, but if you think it’s probably dries you stay out.

That they explained, they feared the tyres the had on the car wouldnt have enough grip. But they didnt expect it to rain that hard. So with alonsos experience of driving slicks in the wet at Le mans, they thought mediums was the way to go with the info they had at that time.  

[Francesc]

I was really angry about it. It was clear they had to put inters on, specially with the big gap behind they got nothing to lose.

[Ruudbackus]

Yeah. Alonso pitted just right time for Inters - but took mediums. He was only ~17 seconds behind Max after second pit stop for Inters - with inters at first stop he would have cleared Max by big margin.

He was 22 seconds behind after that second stop, and closed it to 15-something before Max pulled away again.

[Gareth]

That they explained, they feared the tyres the had on the car wouldnt have enough grip. But they didnt expect it to rain that hard. So with alonsos experience of driving slicks in the wet at Le mans, they thought mediums was the way to go with the info they had at that time.

Thanks for the info!

Disagree with them. If you’re pitting to put the best cars on for the track at that time, actually put the best tyres on!

[Disgrace]

I was really angry about it. It was clear they had to put inters on, specially with the big gap behind they got nothing to lose.

 

On worn tyres in increasingly wet conditions, they had everything to lose.

[naukkis]

He was 22 seconds behind after that second stop, and closed it to 15-something before Max pulled away again.

 

Ok stay corrected - but with Inters he could easily gained that 3 seconds he need against Max.

[Bliman]

Well we can obviously say it was a mistake now with information they didn't have then, but at the time it was a gamble. If the rain remains a very light drizzle that then stops completely, Fernando is in a great spot. It was just awkward and unfortunate for him. Still a great drive without putting a foot wrong all weekend.

 

I disagree completely that this has anything to do with hindsight. They made a very big blunder. Also it was clear already it wasn't a light drizzle at that time. Part of the track was already soaking wet.

[Bliman]

On worn tyres in increasingly wet conditions, they had everything to lose.

 

They had nothing to lose with going to inters. Tell me what they would have lost?

[Goron3]

I disagree completely that this has anything to do with hindsight. They made a very big blunder. Also it was clear already it wasn't a light drizzle at that time. Part of the track was already soaking wet.

Stroll on inters was slower than Alonso on slicks.

When Alonso was in the pit lane it started raining hard in S1/2, but at that point it was too late.

[Bliman]

Stroll on inters was slower than Alonso on slicks.

When Alonso was in the pit lane it started raining hard in S1/2, but at that point it was too late.

 

Stroll isn't a reference. It was already completely wet at part of the track. They were losing a bucket load of time at that part of the track.

[kryziuotis]

Really odd decision. They were running a strategy of a long first stint to give them the opportunity to take advantage of any weirdness. Then some potential weirdness started to develop, and they immediately took their flexibility off the table.

 

Exactly! This decision showed that Aston Martin strategy team lacks winner mentality. To get the win you have to do something different than Max. Even if medium proved to be correct tyre, they would have gained nothing from this pit stop, because Max would still be ahead and on the same tyre. They either had to pit for inters or stayed out and hoped for a safety car.

Edited by kryziuotis, 28 May 2023 - 16:13.

[Ruudbackus]

Stroll on inters was slower than Alonso on slicks.

When Alonso was in the pit lane it started raining hard in S1/2, but at that point it was too late.

This, had they pitted 10 seconds later they would have put inters on; apparently most of the track was still dry when they pitted and in the matter of 1 lap the circuit got soaked. Also Verstappen stated that it was deteriorating really fast

[Bliman]

This, had they pitted 10 seconds later they would have put inters on; apparently most of the track was still dry when they pitted and in the matter of 1 lap the circuit got soaked. Also Verstappen stated that it was deteriorating really fast

 

Then why not stay out and take the right decision? Remember Max was on old mediums and Russell was on the same hard tire as Alonso

[Ruudbackus]

Then why not stay out and take the right decision? Remember Max was on old mediums and Russell was on the same hard tire as Alonso

Becasue they feared it was just to wet for the old hards. And to be fair Max almost put it in the wall, so it wasnt a bad thought. So to wet for the tyres he had, and not wet enough for inters and apparently no indication of the downpoor that followed

Edited by Ruudbackus, 28 May 2023 - 16:18.

[Calum]

Thought they’d have been in more of a high risk gambling mood, considering they are unlikely to beat RedBull in a normal head to head.

Easy in hindsight though isn’t it

Edited by Calum, 28 May 2023 - 16:18.

[Bliman]

Becasue they feared it was just to wet for the old hards. And to be fair Max almost put it in the wall, so it wasnt a bad thought. So to wet for the tyres he had, and not wet enough for inters and apparently no indication of the downpoor that followed

 

New dry tires wouldn't help if they feared it was too wet for the old hards. So all in all they didn't trust the ability of Alonso.