144 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

What was all that about eh? Discuss here, plus if there’s any follow up, this is where it will all go.

[Laster]

I’d like to know the exact details first.
Was Russell starting a hot lap as well as Hamilton?
What did the engineers tell the drivers about what their teammates were doing?

Those two questions would have an impact on what each of them would have been expected to do. So until I know the answers to that I’m not touching that poll.

[Disgrace]

Looks like a team communication issue. Russell not paying attention, Hamilton probably fancied using the tow.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Mixture of George and pitwall. Merc daft for putting them in that positions and George clearly moves over in two steps, putting Lewis on to the grass. Arguable whether it was intentional or not. Lewis probably didn't need to be so aggressive either.

 

A bit of a silly move all round.

[Rumblestrip]

I could only pick one option, but I would've picked all of Russell, Hamilton and the Pit Wall

Russell - He moved over after (only fractionally but even so) Hamilton had committed to the outside line. Dangerous.

Hamilton - Trying to overtake your teammate when he's obviously on a hotlap. Why? The best possible result there would've been no contact and Russell losing his last chance to progress by his teammate.
Pit Wall - Putting the drivers in that position in the first place. Unless they were ignoring messages the drivers shouldn't have been that close together with the possible exception of if it was the plan for one to pull the other along down the main straight.

[jonklug]

Russell has really questionable racecraft - we've seen it on so many occasions. The Bottas Imola incident, the Perez incident, Zhou, Sainz, Schumacher, Verstappen (and I feel like I am missing a few). He's clearly fast and can have a very bright future ahead but sometimes it feels like he doesn't really understand his surroundings. 

[Disgrace]

Though it was rather amusing how Russell immediately went into racing driver excuse mode.

[Broekschaap]

The collision was on George. But overtaking your team mate during qualy while you are both on a hot lap ruins both laps so that wasn't the best teamplay either.

[IceSpeed]

Looks like George didn’t know Lewis was behind and focused on the slipstream from Sainz. Not sure if Lewis knew George was on a hotlap OR thought he was on a cooldown and giving Lewis a slipstream.

Need to wait for Lewis interview because if he knew George was on a hotlap then that was a dumb move.

[chrcol]

I think its going to be one sided, at absolute best its a innocent error by George, but it didnt look that way to me, I think his ambition is getting to his head too much.  He has many years ahead of him, and its not a WDC car, so playing these games is stupid.

[TomNokoe]

The contact was Russell's fault but in the context of qualifying Hamilton shouldn't have been trying to overtake him when they were both on a hot lap.

It's possible that Hamilton didn't know Russell was on a hot lap, but it was pretty obvious considering Russell had DRS wide open.

My opinion is that Mercedes made this mess themselves by unnecessarily sending Hamilton out for a second run on new tyres when he was easily safe. If they had these new tyres in Q3 Hamilton is probably P2.

[chrcol]

The contact was Russell's fault but in the context of qualifying Hamilton shouldn't have been trying to overtake him when they were both on a hot lap.

It's possible that Hamilton didn't know Russell was on a hot lap, but it was pretty obvious considering Russell had DRS wide open.

My opinion is that Mercedes made this mess themselves by unnecessarily sending Hamilton out for a second run on new tyres when he was easily safe. If they had these new tyres in Q3 Hamilton is probably P2.

 

Yeah that was dumb, I expect its their usual policy of either sending both out or sending neither out, they need to decouple that.

Edited by chrcol, 03 June 2023 - 15:43.

[P123]

I'd say 70% George, 20% Pitwall and 5% Lewis, 5% one of those crazy things.

 

George had aborted his first lap, so likely Lewis thought that was the end of his flier and George nicely moving over, whereas George was starting a fast lap and going for the tow from Sainz, not nicely moving over afterall....... and here he comes back and there goes the endplate! 

 

The collision was on George. But overtaking your team mate during qualy while you are both on a hot lap ruins both laps so that wasn't the best teamplay either.

 

[uzsjgb]

I’d like to know the exact details first.
Was Russell starting a hot lap as well as Hamilton?
What did the engineers tell the drivers about what their teammates were doing?

Those two questions would have an impact on what each of them would have been expected to do. So until I know the answers to that I’m not touching that poll.

 

All that has absolutely no bearing on what happened on track. You cannot push a driver off track. There are no exceptions to that rule.

[Muzzyf1]

Russell clearly seen him and moved to middle of track then promptly moves back and collides with Hamilton

[ArchieTech]

From the limited replays I've seen I agree with others that Russell would have been concentrating on Sainz and was either unaware of Hamilton or not expecting an overtake in those circumstances.

 

Anyway, interesting to see what the stewards say. The document requiring them both to appear says: "Car 63 abnormally changed direction directly causing impact with Car 44" (that's not the decision, just the summons, to be clear.)

Edited by ArchieTech, 03 June 2023 - 15:48.

[Afterburner]

From a stewards’ perspective, probably Russell. From a team perspective, Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.

[Primo]

Pit wall should have told Russel to abort the lap since he obviously did not get even a decent start of it. Russle should have used his mirrors. Hamilton... don't know if he was too close, but trying to get a is not necessarily a bad thing and if he saw that Russel got the start of his lap compromised he might have assumed that Russell would abort. Anyway, pit wall should have been there.

Edited by Primo, 03 June 2023 - 15:56.

[SophieB]

From a stewards’ perspective, probably Russell. From a team perspective, Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.

Why? What would be the motive? What would Hamilton have to gain from somehow tricking Russell into crashing into his car on a track he was already driving much faster than him?

[ANF]

I need to see both onboard videos from T13 to fully understand what happened. Live TV was tracking Sainz who was about to complete a push lap. Hamilton, on an out lap, was behind Sainz as the exited T12. In the next shot you could see Russell going very slowly between T13 and T14. Russell had aborted a push lap and was going for another one. As soon as Russell had let Sainz by he got on the racing line and blocked Hamilton before T14. Surely, Russell must have known at that point that Hamilton was right behind him? Russell says he didn't know he was there but... I don't know.

[Rumblestrip]

I need to see both onboard videos from T13 to fully understand what happened. Live TV was tracking Sainz who was about to complete a push lap. Hamilton, on an out lap, was behind Sainz as the exited T12. In the next shot you could see Russell going very slowly between T13 and T14. Russell had aborted a push lap and was going for another one. As soon as Russell had let Sainz by he got on the racing line and blocked Hamilton before T14. Surely, Russell must have known at that point that Hamilton was right behind him? Russell says he didn't know he was there but... I don't know.

 

I think Russell must have known that Hamilton was behind him, but probably not that Hamilton would try to overtake him on his hotlap.

[AlbertPark]

Though it was rather amusing how Russell immediately went into racing driver excuse mode.

*politician mode

[P123]

Why? What would be the motive? What would Hamilton have to gain from somehow tricking Russell into crashing into his car on a track he was already driving much faster than him?

 

 

What Lewis knew he was doing was taking a tow, gaining momentum and passing.  What he thought his teammate was doing was moving out of the way.  Likely a juicy purple S1 on the way.  Except George's mind was in the same place, but with his eyes on Sainz.  That "Hamilton created the situation" is a possibly risible claim and the "he knew what he was doing" a bit of tinfoil territory that requires explanation, unless it's the fairly obvious of taking a tow and passing, without moving offline.  But will be interesting to hear what the drivers have to say regarding how they came to tripping over each other.  The actions of each, from the outside, seem easily explainable.

[SophieB]

@MercedesAMGF1

“It was just a misunderstanding, a lack of communication in the garage during an intense moment so no one is to blame." 

 

- Toto on the Quali incident.

[PayasYouRace]

Just one of those things right? Very bizarre but no one really at fault.

[SophieB]

 

@MercedesAMGF1

“It was just a misunderstanding, a lack of communication in the garage during an intense moment so no one is to blame." 

 

- Toto on the Quali incident.

 

[flyboym3]

From a stewards’ perspective, probably Russell. From a team perspective, Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.

You've got to be kidding us all...if this was not intra team George would be getting a penalty and rightly so but given its the same team I suspect stewards will let it go as they usually do when its the same team involved.

[RekF1]

Why? What would be the motive? What would Hamilton have to gain from somehow tricking Russell into crashing into his car on a track he was already driving much faster than him?

He was being really cheeky by trying to complete his lap?

If George abandoned a lap and decided to go again why did he impede Lewis who was starting a fast lap? he would've known how far behind he was so there's a chance his actions were sinister. I'm assuming there wasn't enough time for a cool down lap but he still screwed Lewis over.

[PayasYouRace]

As a general rule I’d say it’s up to the car behind to find space for a flying lap. Drivers starting a flying lap generally don’t expect to have someone trying to pass them.

[SophieB]

He was being really cheeky by trying to complete his lap?

If George abandoned a lap and decided to go again why did he impede Lewis who was starting a fast lap? he would've known how far behind he was so there's a chance his actions were sinister. I'm assuming there wasn't enough time for a cool down lap but he still screwed Lewis over.

I believe afterburner was suggesting *Hamilton* might have made all this happen on purpose rather than George, though. I don’t accept that because I genuinely can’t see any benefit to him doing so.

[ConsiderAndGo]

They have been called to the stewards

Lol wutttt?

The stewards are showing a massively hyped opinion of themselves.

[Afterburner]

Why? What would be the motive? What would Hamilton have to gain from somehow tricking Russell into crashing into his car on a track he was already driving much faster than him?

Passing Russell ends Russell’s chances of getting into Q3/one less car Hamilton had to worry about bumping him out. Not sure why he didn’t just give himself more space to Russell.

[messy]

The collision itself was on a combination of George and the pit wall. The fact the two cars were together like that in the first place was dumb decision making on the Mercedes side. Hamilton going to overtake him wasn't great either but they should never have been in that position. Racing drivers are selfish, of course they are, so I struggle to blame Lewis that much. Strange and completely avoidable incident. I kinda don’t think Mercedes 2014-21 spec make that kind of error.

Edited by messy, 03 June 2023 - 16:18.

[pacificquay]

From a stewards’ perspective, probably Russell. From a team perspective, Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.

Why would it be a matter for the stewards? They shouldn’t intervene in incidents within a team.

[SophieB]

Passing Russell ends Russell’s chances of getting into Q3/one less car Hamilton had to worry about bumping him out. Not sure why he didn’t just give himself more space.

When you said “Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.” That sounded like you think  he wanted the crash to happen. The follow up sounds far different, more “Hamilton was trying to pass Russell and do a fast lap too”.

 

Personally, I think he *had* found the space and then Russell swung across the track into it. I don’t think it’s reasonable of Russell to not check and just assume there’s not a car there.

 

I don’t think there’s any malice but stunningly clumsy on Russell’s part. I’d be interested in seeing the onboards from earlier in the lap. Maybe they’ve been on? I agreed to turn over the tv so someone could watch the end of the cup final.

[Timorous]

From a stewards’ perspective, probably Russell. From a team perspective, Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.

Need to watch the replay from before the final corner. Russell needs to get out of Sainz's way and do so but it costs him momentum so Lewis thought Russell had backed off and was giving him a tow.

Or you could just say it is Hamilton's fault with no evidence to back it up if you like.

[Heyli]

Lol wutttt?

The stewards are showing a massively hyped opinion of themselves.

I mean, the stewards not investigating a collission during qualy on track would be quite odd...

[SophieB]

Why would it be a matter for the stewards? They shouldn’t intervene in incidents within a team.

Why wouldn’t it? Why would bad driving get a pass if it’s only a team mate that suffers?

[ConsiderAndGo]

So is every single incident, incursion etc now a matter for the stewards ? Has it always been like that?

[uzsjgb]

Why would it be a matter for the stewards? They shouldn’t intervene in incidents within a team.

 

What nonsense. There are no exceptions to the rules.

[SophieB]

So is every single incident, incursion etc now a matter for the stewards ? Has it always been like that?

?

Is your defence of this one REALLY going to boil down to ‘look if they’re going to follow up formally whenever you crash your car into someone else’s in quali we’ll be here all day’ or what.

[JeanAlesi27]

I've never seen a driver trying to overtake his teammate in a Q session during a hot lap- ever.  That's pure stupidity ..  I attribute this incident mostly to Lewis. Russell gettting blame for not seeing Lewis... Russell didn't lift as Lewis stated,  Lewis got the tow.   The team, the drivers... pure amateur hour.  Both cars could have gone out.

Edited by JeanAlesi27, 03 June 2023 - 16:40.

[Scotracer]

Pit wall.

It's qualifying. George is ahead and starting a hot lap. Lewis should have been told he was - it doesn't make sense for Lewis to start his hot lap so close to George. Unless Lewis (wrongly) believed he was to get a tow from George.

George has no need to look in his mirrors on a hot lap. Pit wall should have realised what was about to happen and stopped one of them.

[hollowstar]

George clearly at fault. Not the first time he's a bit reckless. It's also becoming obvious that George can't stand seeing Lewis faster than him, which seems to happen more and more often.

[Risil]

About time these two collided on track. Unless it was a botched Mansell/Senna tribute act from all those years ago.

 

Until I looked up the incident on Youtube Sophie I thought you literally meant the pit wall might have been to blame, which I thought was a bit harsh as it's been there since 1991.

[scheivlak]

Why would it be a matter for the stewards? They shouldn’t intervene in incidents within a team.

Hungary 2007 Q says hi

[Timorous]

Totall on George. Look at the Lewis on board for his outlap. He lets Max and then Sainz through. Starts his build up and George let's Sainz through on the final corner which is a near full speed corner, is traveling very slowly and swings back onto the racing line right Infront of Lewis before the main feed replay picks up the incident we have all seen.

No wonder Lewis thought George was giving him a tow, he had already screwed up his lap.

Edit. 53 minutes into the F1TV feed.

Edited by Timorous, 03 June 2023 - 16:44.

[SophieB]

Hungary 2007 Q says hi

Lol. To be fair, I think it makes the job harder for the stewards because there’s liable to be pressure on the wronged driver to take some blame to save the team points but to me, they should carry out the investigations fairly and equally anyway.

[Afterburner]

When you said “Hamilton created the situation that led to the collision and I suspect he knew what he was doing.” That sounded like you think he wanted the crash to
happen. The follow up sounds far different, more “Hamilton was trying to pass Russell and do a fast lap too”.

All I was saying is that if Hamilton had kept a gap to Russell instead of trying to pass him none of this would have happened. It’s not like Hamilton was in danger of running out of time. The whole thing was unnecessary.

[Timorous]

All I was saying is that if Hamilton had kept a gap to Russell instead of trying to pass him none of this would have happened. It’s not like Hamilton was in danger of running out of time. The whole thing was unnecessary.

Watch the outlap. He had a gap until George decided to go really slow in the last corner to allow Sainz through and then swung back to the racing line forcing Hamilton to back off.