27 replies to this topic

[Gravelngrass]

This is so unlike F1 I'm rubbing my eyes in disbelief>  https://www.motorspo...evamp/10517789/

 

https://www.motorspo...tric-/10517669/

 

These seem like sensible ways forward for a change. Regarding the aero, I wonder if it is time to have standard floor designs to make sure the spirit of the original 2022 rules is respected? And will the planned introduction of active suspension not be a step in the wrong direction if the cars are just too optimized for every position on track?

And as far as weight and size goes, I'm not that sure if 50 Kgs is a lot, but at this point, I guess anything helps and if they couple that with a reduction in size, which hopefully creates a more nimble car, then we'll take it right?

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[PayasYouRace]

I think both are good ideas. But I wouldn’t be that surprised. F1 has a lot of inertia from old times but things are changing. I didn’t think they’d pat themselves on the back for the 2022 rules and leave it there. It’s nice to see a culture of proper product improvement is starting to set in, rather than just knee jerk reactions and ill thought out technical rules.

[noikeee]

It’s nice to see a culture of proper product improvement is starting to set in, rather than just knee jerk reactions and ill thought out technical rules.

"What happened on the very last grand Prix? We need to make a new rule to fix it now!!!1"

I've gotten too used to that kind of thinking in F1 for the last couple of decades...

[Sterzo]

Really good news - not surprising, but good to see confirmation the FIA is proposing to continue  developing the rules in the right direction.

[AustinF1]

Lighter cars? Yes, yes, yes. And then lighten them some more. 50kg is at least a start. If they make the cars lighter then they should be able to make them smaller as well, as they wouldn't need such huge aero surfaces to create enough downforce to make these heavy-ass cars stick to the road.

 

Standard floors would be a massive step and too much imho, esp in a formula that relies so much on the bottom of the car for downforce. I'm all for clawing back to the proper 2022 regs though. They never should have been softened in the first place.

Edited by AustinF1, 09 September 2023 - 19:24.

[RedRabbit]

I mean, the FIA created this nonsense in 2023 to begin with. Sometimes it's hard to believe former actual F1 engineers are running the Technical delegate.

Raising the floor edges and reducing throat size to combat porpoising? Basically every technical site last year was already saying this would play into Red Bull's hands because of their experience sealing floor edges.

How? With complex bodywork and flow structures that inevitably either create more turbulence or work less effectively in turbulent air.

Allowing simple extra damping to suspension would very likely have eliminated porpoising AND left us with 2022 style close racing.

As far as aero goes anyway.

[RedRabbit]

The elephant in the room though, are the tires. Cars can't follow closely because the tires overheat.

Drivers have to "bring the tires in" over 3 to 4 laps, whether it's the start or a pit stop.

That robs the drivers and us of aggressive starts, overtakes, out laps, in laps, hard defending and hard attacking.

It's all the tires.

[Risil]

Don't think Tombazis is talking about a spec floor! That would be going too far IMO.

[Gravelngrass]

The elephant in the room though, are the tires. Cars can't follow closely because the tires overheat.

Drivers have to "bring the tires in" over 3 to 4 laps, whether it's the start or a pit stop.

That robs the drivers and us of aggressive starts, overtakes, out laps, in laps, hard defending and hard attacking.

It's all the tires.

Hopefully we´ll get a new supplier in 2025...

[Flyhigh]

This is so unlike F1 I'm rubbing my eyes in disbelief>  https://www.motorspo...evamp/10517789/

 

https://www.motorspo...tric-/10517669/

 

These seem like sensible ways forward for a change. Regarding the aero, I wonder if it is time to have standard floor designs to make sure the spirit of the original 2022 rules is respected? And will the planned introduction of active suspension not be a step in the wrong direction if the cars are just too optimized for every position on track?

And as far as weight and size goes, I'm not that sure if 50 Kgs is a lot, but at this point, I guess anything helps and if they couple that with a reduction in size, which hopefully creates a more nimble car, then we'll take it right?

 

Thoughts?

Damn finally some ozempic diet for these obese bus like F1 cars.  On the aero side it has to be really limiting, otherwise engineers just get around it, simulation, VR, AI, etc. is just too advanced nowdays you got to really make sure that aero will be reduced not matter what, not just hope with making this or that smaller, this or that lower will reduce it. 

[renzmann]

Didn't I read somewhere they want to achieve those 50kg by making the cars smaller? Would be good news! I guess the cars were to be smaller by a lot, which would be good for racing action.

[uzsjgb]

The elephant in the room though, are the tires. Cars can't follow closely because the tires overheat.

 

The tires overheat because a car following another car loses downforce and thus the tires lose grip and overheat, because the tires are sliding over the asphalt. This is not a Pirelli problem or a problem with the construction of the tires, it is physics.

[uzsjgb]

Hopefully we´ll get a new supplier in 2025...

 

Why? Just like Pirelli, Bridgestone cannot make the tire it wants to make, but has to make the tires Formula One orders. I have read nothing to suggest that Formula One is changing its tire philosophy, so I expect they are not looking for a better manufacturer, but for a cheaper one.

[Clatter]

Why? Just like Pirelli, Bridgestone cannot make the tire it wants to make, but has to make the tires Formula One orders. I have read nothing to suggest that Formula One is changing its tire philosophy, so I expect they are not looking for a better manufacturer, but for a cheaper one.

They won't be looking for a cheaper one, as they don't pay for the tyres. Pirelli pay to be the supplier.

[Gravelngrass]

Why? Just like Pirelli, Bridgestone cannot make the tire it wants to make, but has to make the tires Formula One orders. I have read nothing to suggest that Formula One is changing its tire philosophy, so I expect they are not looking for a better manufacturer, but for a cheaper one.

That was the time of the cheese tyres. They are not playing that game anymore apparently, or, at least, less so, so a new manufacturer might simply make a better racing tyre.

[FirstnameLastname]

They won't be looking for a cheaper one, as they don't pay for the tyres. Pirelli pay to be the supplier.

Yep. Horner said recently he hopes for ‘several million more’ reasons for Pirelli to stay

[Ragamuffin]

50 kilos is nothing, that's 2021 levels, you wouldn't even notice. Unless they want the weight to creep down over time like it's crept up. 15 years ago they were 200 kg lighter. That should be the aim. Instead of fannying around with redundant engine tech they should channel it into lighter, safer cars.

[SCUDmissile]

This is so unlike F1 I'm rubbing my eyes in disbelief> https://www.motorspo...evamp/10517789/

https://www.motorspo...tric-/10517669/

These seem like sensible ways forward for a change. Regarding the aero, I wonder if it is time to have standard floor designs to make sure the spirit of the original 2022 rules is respected? And will the planned introduction of active suspension not be a step in the wrong direction if the cars are just too optimized for every position on track?

And as far as weight and size goes, I'm not that sure if 50 Kgs is a lot, but at this point, I guess anything helps and if they couple that with a reduction in size, which hopefully creates a more nimble car, then we'll take it right?

Thoughts?

Until teams moan and they change it back or completely neuter those changes.

Let's see who the FIA pick for dominance this time. Probably Mercedes again

[1player]

Until teams moan and they change it back or completely neuter those changes.

Let's see who the FIA pick for dominance this time. Probably Mercedes again

Mercedes did moan last time, FIA caved, yet it still isn't winning. How does that fit in your conspiracy theory?

[Flyhigh]

The tires overheat because a car following another car loses downforce and thus the tires lose grip and overheat, because the tires are sliding over the asphalt. This is not a Pirelli problem or a problem with the construction of the tires, it is physics.

This is one of the essential problems worrying about "racing action" the illusive "cars following closely" is a lot why we are where we are. Stop worrying about overtaking perse, focus on taking the cars off the train rails making them more difficult to drive, sliding, locking up, drivers having to correct it constantly thus being more prone to mistakes, and by consequence us seeing more driving abilities and true racing action, not artificial one. 

This supposed golden era of organic racing action was only possible because the cars were harder to drive, drivers made mistakes, locked up the tyres on entry constantly, wiggle the tail out of the corner without good traction or out of pressure from behind, missed gears, etc. And thus gave ample opportunity for "racing action"  what we have now is a lot of artificial racing action already, higher and highers doses of pure artificial surgar sucralose racing action, while the cars on rails, DRS, etc. which makes it unnatural and boring as hell.  

 

Edited by Flyhigh, 11 September 2023 - 15:14.

[Gravelngrass]

The tires overheat because a car following another car loses downforce and thus the tires lose grip and overheat, because the tires are sliding over the asphalt. This is not a Pirelli problem or a problem with the construction of the tires, it is physics.

Yep, but that´s precisely what they are looking at IIUC, to reduce that turbulence, to reduce the lost downforce, to reduce the sliding and tyre degradation. So yeah, it's physics, but there are degrees of physics as well. And I think you can always make a better tyre as well...

[Gravelngrass]

This is one of the essential problems worrying about "racing action" the illusive "cars following closely" is a lot why we are where we are. Stop worrying about overtaking perse, focus on taking the cars off the train rails making them more difficult to drive, sliding, locking up, drivers having to correct it constantly thus being more prone to mistakes, and by consequence us seeing more driving abilities and true racing action, not artificial one. 

This supposed golden era of organic racing action was only possible because the cars were harder to drive, drivers made mistakes, locked up the tyres on entry constantly, wiggle the tail out of the corner without good traction or out of pressure from behind, missed gears, etc. And thus gave ample opportunity for "racing action"  what we have now is a lot of artificial racing action already, higher and highers doses of pure artificial surgar sucralose racing action, while the cars on rails, DRS, etc. which makes it unnatural and boring as hell.  

 

Completely agree. That's why they should start with making the cars lighter and with less turbulence. But the real change is going to come when they make drivers drive the cars instead of software...

[SCUDmissile]

Mercedes did moan last time, FIA caved, yet it still isn't winning. How does that fit in your conspiracy theory?

Didn't moan well enough

[Saxon]

Question here, instead of these hybrids why can't they go back to V8's or even better V10's and use sustainable fuel?

[Wuzak]

50 kilos is nothing, that's 2021 levels, you wouldn't even notice. Unless they want the weight to creep down over time like it's crept up. 15 years ago they were 200 kg lighter. That should be the aim. Instead of fannying around with redundant engine tech they should channel it into lighter, safer cars.

 

Safety is the main reason why the weight has crept up, as well as other things like moving to the 18" tyre.

[Wuzak]

Question here, instead of these hybrids why can't they go back to V8's or even better V10's and use sustainable fuel?

 

Because they not only want to use sustainable fuels, they also want to reduce the fuel used.

 

Ironically the 2026 PU rules may force them to use more fuel than originally intended (100kg vs ~70kg planned vs 110kg currently).

 

They could make the power units lighter by ditching the ERS. MGUK + MGUK gearbox + ES = 55kg (minimum), with other bits and pieces adding to maybe 80-100kg.

 

A 700kg F1 car with ~800hp, 100kg fuel for the race, anti-lag, could be quite good.

 

But, at the end of the day, a high-revving V10 or V8 engine or non hybrid turbo V6 doesn't appeal to the PU manufacturers, so we are stuck with them.

[Clatter]

Safety is the main reason why the weight has crept up, as well as other things like moving to the 18" tyre.

What are the safety features that have caused such a large increase in the weight?

[Wuzak]

What are the safety features that have caused such a large increase in the weight?

 

Halo, stronger crash structures and stricter crash testing rules.

 

They gained ~100kg with the same power units, which changed minimum weight by 5kg.