523 replies to this topic

[Risil]

One of the subplots of this Grand Prix season has been Lance Stroll's travails in the lower reaches of the top 10 while that annoying Spanish driver has been doing his business at the sharp end. The 24-year-old, whose name sounds a bit like his dad's name but pronounced faster, is now in his seventh year of Grand Prix racing and has so far been beaten by the admittedly high-class Fernando Alonso in 14 out of 15 races this year. Following the Singapore GP, which he did not start after a big crash in qualifying, he trails the double world champion in the driver's standings by 123 points. Stroll has 8 points finishes so this isn't a complete collapse, but it is the sort of season that would make Aston Martin wonder if they might be doing a bit better if Driver 2's results looked more like Driver 1's.

Things have got weird over the summer, as rumours apparently spread by Sky commentator David Croft that he was going to leave F1 and become a pro tennis player (!) resulted in Stroll both calling the rumour baseless and "creative", but also speculating, not particularly seriously, that he is pretty good at tennis but not at the level of the top players on the tour. That's why there's a rumour, Lance! You were supposed to say "no comment"!

And then outside of Lance's head, after he crashed in Singapore qualifying while pushing to start another qualifying lap, team boss Mike Krack responded to a journalist asking whether Stroll was pushing too hard by saying, unexpectedly, that whatever it means, what it doesn't mean is that Lance isn't committed to his racing career. Quite the opposite in fact! His crashing is proof he belongs in F1! Again, doesn't prove anything, but weird nonetheless.

There must be a lot going on behind the scenes for senior F1 people to respond to simple questions like this. I don't know what! Maybe you do. Maybe you can read the writing on the wall. Maybe there is no writing. But worth a thread and a poll, surely.

https://www.autospor...mours/10512160/

https://www.autospor...sness/10521943/

[chrcol]

The best driver is comfortable (good thing), teams hate it when drivers are evenly matched.

 

Stroll gets to race in a good team (good thing for him and his dad).

 

Dont see the issue.

 

I think having equally strong drivers being good for a team is a myth.

Edited by chrcol, 18 September 2023 - 09:57.

[BertoC]

He'll stay as long as his dad continues. Aston Martin F1 exists only because Stroll wants his son to carry on racing. Only way Lance leaves is if he gets bored of racing.

[LolaB0860]

He stays there as long as his "sponsor" pays his seat (or the team collapses), so anything from nothing to 20 years.

Edited by LolaB0860, 18 September 2023 - 09:59.

[Risil]

Only way Lance leaves is if he gets bored of racing.

 

My reading of the two stories I linked to is that this may be happening. He's joking about quitting and Mike Krack is pre-emptively denying that Lance is losing interest. (Or perhaps just doesn't like the constant travel and training and exposure to mortal danger, like most people wouldn't.)

[P123]

Lance is a bit of an enigma.  Clearly has some talent, has stood on the podium, taken a pole position and another front row start.  But he's never really developed into a solid points scorer, and some (too many) of his performances are way off where they should be.  Prior to his comeback at the start of the year when he had mangled hands I wondered about his commitment.  Back then that seemed to be proven an unfair criticism.  But I'm not sure.  I sometimes in the past got the impression that he was living out someone else's dream (his father's!) and didn't look like he was enjoying himself.  Whatever the case, it really isn't working this season.

[TomNokoe]

Be interested to see where his head is at after Suzuka FP1. Especially with a sore neck.

[JimmyClark]

Lance is a bit of an enigma.  Clearly has some talent, has stood on the podium, taken a pole position and another front row start.  But he's never really developed into a solid points scorer, and some (too many) of his performances are way off where they should be.  Prior to his comeback at the start of the year when he had mangled hands I wondered about his commitment.  Back then that seemed to be proven an unfair criticism.  But I'm not sure.  I sometimes in the past got the impression that he was living out someone else's dream (his father's!) and didn't look like he was enjoying himself.  Whatever the case, it really isn't working this season.

 

I can't disagree with this assessment really. I used to think he was hard done by armchair fans, but in the last couple of year he just hasn't progressed since his Racing Point highs - last season he did have flashes of speed but crashed a lot, and this season up until Singapore he had cut out the crashes but didn't seem to have much speed anymore. He just seems a bit lost. 

 

I think he will be here next year, but I'd be surprised if he was kept beyond 2025. He's not going to be WDC and even his dad must be starting to realise that. An 8-year F1 career with a pole and podiums is still something to be proud of. 

[CharlesWinstone]

Lance will go when he makes this decision himself. And if Lance leaves Lawrence will as well.

[Beri]

In some way I find Lance a bit lazy and just not as focussed this season. Alonso drives in circles around him at times and he seems to deal with backlash a lot worse than he used to. It is all a feeling. But he could very well hang up his helmet after seasons end.

[rocque]

Watch out Aston Martin vs McLaren (217 vs 139 after the Singapore GP).

 

I think he might be out after 2024.

Edited by rocque, 18 September 2023 - 10:15.

[Baddoer]

He'll be there to make numbers until something happens.

[Maustinsj]

He has the COMPLETE confidence of the board of directors...

[TheFish]

I wonder how much desire he has left compared to how much desire his Dad has for him.

 

I think he'll stay next year, but that will be his final year. A pole and a podium is a decent return for him. He's had some very high highs, and some very low lows.

[Taxi]

Always defended Stroll, but this season he's completely useless. Sure he was never going to beat Alonso, but the thing is that he's getting beated by Wiliams, Alpines, Mclarens in races. Often seen fighting Haas, or Alfa Romeo drivers. He should come one or 2 places behind Alonso on average, 2 or 3 podiums and having around 80-90 points. 

 

That being said, he will stay as long as he wants because of his father. 

Edited by Taxi, 18 September 2023 - 10:37.

[Ramon69]

Lance will be on his way out when he feels like it or when he gets tired of F1/getting beaten! 

[RedRabbit]

He has the COMPLETE confidence of the board of directors...

Does he really? And if so, I imagine that was easily the case when the team was a comfortable mid fielder, when finishing 4th in the WCC was considered punching above their weight and a great achievement.

Things are different now. They have attracted some VERY top engineers, with impressive careers who are used to success.

These engineers have built a car capable of quite a few podium finishes this year, and if development hadn't been nerfed by a flexi wing for a couple months, Alonso would still be hunting Checo for 2nd in the WDC, all while the team slip to a distant 4th in the WCC.

8 lower points finishes isn't good enough for Lance when Alonso has only had 1 non-score primarily through a disaster of a pit stop.

His father is NOT the only shareholder or investor, and the very expensive engineers they hired who built a car that should be 2nd in WCC will not be happy, and airing some grievances to other senior management for sure.

It's clear as day that a more capable driver in the second car should have at least a dozen points finishes by now and roughly 30+ extra points, which is just averaging 7th over the season.

Lance's days are numbered, whether his father likes it or not. Or they risk losing the engineers back to where they came from.

[Spillage]

Lawrence won't stop him. His investment in Aston Martin is solely for.his son's benefit. If he was really a coldly rational businessman he'd have dropped his son years ago.

So the seat is Lance's as long as he wants it. I don't see much sign of him not wanting it at the moment. I think his poor results are down to a lack of ability, not a lack of motivation.

[Primo]

Me thinks he have realized that he will never be World Champion and is no longer fully committed. He still has all the money and I am sure there are many temptations outside of F1. So I think that, yes, he is on his way out, but it is his own decision.

[RedRabbit]

Lawrence won't stop him. His investment in Aston Martin is solely for.his son's benefit. If he was really a coldly rational businessman he'd have dropped his son years ago.

So the seat is Lance's as long as he wants it. I don't see much sign of him not wanting it at the moment. I think his poor results are down to a lack of ability, not a lack of motivation.

This is the first year they're competing with the top teams. He didn't need Lance to perform any better when they were near the bottom of the WCC.

7th or 8th doesn't matter, but 2nd or 4th certainly does as a matter of pride and personal achievement.

He hasn't had to make any decisions about whether Lance is truly good enough until now.

[JimmyClark]

Lance will go when he makes this decision himself. And if Lance leaves Lawrence will as well.

 

Stroll has made successful businesses before, and Aston Martin is yet another business he wants to succeed with. He's also a fan of motorsport. If Lance decides to leave F1, Lawrence will still be determined to take the WDC and WCC if he can. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a father-son management team. 

Edited by JimmyClark, 18 September 2023 - 10:48.

[Gary Davies]

A heck of a poll, Risil. Your four options (with which I can't argue), omit the option I'd include... "Don't know".

 

To tick one of the boxes you've offered, I think it would be necessary to see inside the mind of Lawrence. One camp says he is running this team in order to give his lad a drive in F1. And the opposing camp holds the view that he is deadly serious about winning World Championships. 

 

I am nothing but a humble anorak so what would I know. 

 

However, I can see four reasons why he might be thinking about seeing if he can place Lance somewhere else within F1... or at least, in motor racing. Here they are:

1. He has spent a stupefying amount of money on resourcing this team. I have a UK friend who has been involved with the construction of the new facility and I gather his eyes are out on stalks every time he goes there. This alone says that Lawrence is Very Serious about this project.
2. Ego. Just Wiki him. A man with that business profile just has to have a very healthy ego. And, long term, that does not fit with Aston Martin F1 remaining a mid-field, occasional podium outfit.
3. Money. It might be reasonable to deduce that money is fairly high up in Lawrence's priority list. Not that he needs more of it, but in the Bernie sense in which it is important to be seen amongst his peers to be making a lot of it. All the time. So I'm guessing that at some point down the line, he will be happy to sell. But only at a very large profit. That means winning many races. The odd constructors or drivers championship wouldn't hurt, either.
4. The Fernando factor. What a freak this fellow is. An outstanding driver compared to any era. But it can't go on forever. I'm thinking that sooner or later, he has to attract a Nando replacement, a driver capable of winning World Championships. When will the team be in a position to put a solid offer to the one of the very promising up and comers? Who knows? But, subject to a lot of jigsaw pieces falling into place, perhaps from the start of 2025??? I can imagine Lawrence making eye-watering offers to the likes of Piastri, Norris or Albon, at least. Yes, I know about contracts but we should all know how bustable they can be.

So I don't know. But I can imagine a little père et fils chat in the study after Christmas lunch.

[New Britain]

Stroll has made successful businesses before, and Aston Martin is yet another business he wants to succeed with. He's also a fan of motorsport. If Lance decides to leave F1, Lawrence will still be determined to take the WDC and WCC if he can. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a father-son management team. 

Interesting idea.

Also we should bear in mind that, since the cost cap was introduced, an F1 team has been an appreciating asset and, with decent sponsorship, been break-even or profitable. The financial picture for Stroll Sr and partners is very different from when he bought the remains of Force India.

Furthermore Stroll Sr is not shy of the limelight, and he gets a heck of a lot more of it by being an F1 team owner than he would do by being just another old, fat, rich guy.

Then there are the potential ramifications for the road car company, which is a much trickier business to run than a racing team is and from which Sr and partners probably would not walk away as readily as they theoretically could do from a midfield racing team.

Thus Stroll Sr is probably going to be with us on the grid for some time to come, and Lance's 'transitioning' to Team Principal would seem quite possible.

[Jops14]

I always think Lawrence would happily continue whether Lance stays or not. This guy has been sponsoring F1 teams since 1990. I see him as a brash Mateschitz more than anything else.

Having said that, as long as Lance wants to be there he will be

[ArnageWRC]

He'll stay as long as his father wants him there; however if he did leave he wouldn't be missed......

[tempname11]

There's no motivation for Lance to do better; he already has it all. Otherwise, he might have developed into a better driver, who knows.

[ARTGP]

Lance will do whatever he likes but it's his call. 

[SophieB]

I don’t know what will happen to him but I just wanted to say how Lance reminds me very much of the character of Susan Alexander in Citizen Kane, a talented amateur singer who is made to perform as an opera singer (despite everyone thinking she sucks at it) to satisfy the private psychological motives of a billionaire.

[GTR]

I don't really understand why Honda would like to partner with this father and son team. Is this team serious enough about its ambitions?

[Viryfan]

I don't really understand why Honda would like to partner with this father and son team. Is this team serious enough about its ambitions?

Because Aramco did foot the bill.

[milestone 11]

I have sympathy for Lance. He's under colossal pressure from all quarters to perform in a manner comparable to a team mate who is considered, by many, as an all time great with enormous levels of natural talent. It's manifestly unfair because Lance will never be Fernando's equal. My view is that Lance would perform better against a lesser team mate.

[le chat noir]

They aren't short of money.

They aren't short of exposure.

What's the benefit of finishing higher in the standings to the team? None.

What's the benefit of finishing lower - more aero development time.

Perfect pairing for this year and next. It's a 3-year plan.

2025 they need someone fast to partner Alonso and continue after Alonso leaves.

Stroll will take a sabbatical and then potentially return for 2026 if Alonso leaves, paired alongside one of Leclerc, Albon, Sainz, Vettel, Russell, Norris or Piastri.

[jcbc3]

They aren't short of money.

They aren't short of exposure.

What's the benefit of finishing higher in the standings to the team? None.

What's the benefit of finishing lower - more aero development time.

Perfect pairing for this year and next. It's a 3-year plan.

2025 they need someone fast to partner Alonso and continue after Alonso leaves.

Stroll will take a sabbatical and then potentially return for 2026 if Alonso leaves, paired alongside one of Leclerc, Albon, Sainz, Vettel, Russell, Norris or Piastri.

 

erhh, 10 million USD or so?

[DW46]

erhh, 10 million USD or so?

Lawrence: Checks pockets and back of sofa to see if he can cover it.

[ensign14]

Lance is a bit of an enigma.  Clearly has some talent, has stood on the podium, taken a pole position and another front row start.  But he's never really developed into a solid points scorer, and some (too many) of his performances are way off where they should be. 

 

It was an interesting experiment, push someone to F1 before they learn bad habits like changing gear in lower formulae and see if they can learn "on the job", driving nothing but F1 for a career.  It worked for Kimi and Max...

[KWSN - DSM]

He stays as long as he want to stay, be it end this season, end next, or anything up to logging most GP starts ever.

[Disgrace]

Lawrence won't stop him. His investment in Aston Martin is solely for.his son's benefit. If he was really a coldly rational businessman he'd have dropped his son years ago.

So the seat is Lance's as long as he wants it. I don't see much sign of him not wanting it at the moment. I think his poor results are down to a lack of ability, not a lack of motivation.

 

I'm not sure that's really true anymore. Perhaps at the beginning, but the project has grown arms and legs. I think Lawrence will be around longer than Lance. The team is and probably will remain too valuable.

[dissident]

Lance is a bit of an enigma.  Clearly has some talent, has stood on the podium, taken a pole position and another front row start.  But he's never really developed into a solid points scorer, and some (too many) of his performances are way off where they should be.  Prior to his comeback at the start of the year when he had mangled hands I wondered about his commitment.  Back then that seemed to be proven an unfair criticism.  But I'm not sure.  I sometimes in the past got the impression that he was living out someone else's dream (his father's!) and didn't look like he was enjoying himself.  Whatever the case, it really isn't working this season.

Agreed, doesn't look like he really wants to be there anymore.

 

He was always inconsistent but you could always count on a good (sometimes excellent) weekend or two, now he's just been invisible.

[Cadence]

His head certainly doesn't seem to be in the game.

Agree with much of what milestone 11 said above.

[lustigson]

I'm not convinced that Senior and Junior's F1 plans are as interconnected as has been suggested on this forum many times. My feeling is that Lawrence might have stepped into the deep end of F1 sooner or later, even without the best racing efforts of his son. Likewise, I think that, even if his son ends his active driving career after 2024 (or whenever), Lawrence will not necessarily end his involvement in the Aston Martin team nor the Aston Martin car company.

[Sterzo]

Maybe Lance's future will be with Aston Martin in endurance racing. They are rumoured to be heading back to the top level:

 

https://www.autospor...-imsa/10519417/

[jcbc3]

Daddy Lawrence is still deeply in the red in regard to his Aston Martin investments. Even if sonny Lance stopped driving for whatever reason, he is a business man that won't leave his investment until he see a generous return OR it comes to a point where he can see there won't be a generous return. And that has nothing to do with Lance's career.

[ARTGP]

Maybe Lance's future will be with Aston Martin in endurance racing. They are rumoured to be heading back to the top level:

 

https://www.autospor...-imsa/10519417/

 

Heart of Racing (the team who is rumored to be invovled) was questioned about these rumors and said they are baseless rumors. 

Edited by ARTGP, 18 September 2023 - 13:43.

[ensign14]

Always defended Stroll, but this season he's completely useless. Sure he was never going to beat Alonso, but the thing is that he's getting beated by Wiliams, Alpines, Mclarens in races. Often seen fighting Haas, or Alfa Romeo drivers. He should come one or 2 places behind Alonso on average, 2 or 3 podiums and having around 80-90 points. 

 

The crash at the start of the year might have taken more out of him psychologically than physiologically - and he's had another hard one in Singapore when his lines leading up to the crash were all at sea.  He probably needs a break, but once one is off the treadmill...

 

I don’t know what will happen to him but I just wanted to say how Lance reminds me very much of the character of Susan Alexander in Citizen Kane, a talented amateur singer who is made to perform as an opera singer (despite everyone thinking she sucks at it) to satisfy the private psychological motives of a billionaire.

 

Of course based on the real life example of Marion Davies, who was actually a rather well-regarded comic actress, but Hearst didn't want her doing the pratfalls/pie-in-face &c once he was publicly linked to her, just forced her continually into costume dramas.  Essentially he tried to turn Amy Schumer into Kate Winslet.

[Dalton007]

What a dilemma for his father. Lance staying is hurting the progress of the team. He's not good enough.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I get the feeling that this will be his final year. He just seems done with F1. Alonso is humiliating him and the pressure of being at daddy's team now that it is Aston Martin must be immense.

 

If he doesn't leave this year, I am fairly sure that 2024 will be his last.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Also, regarding the second option, what exactly is his contract? Is it a rolling contract year-on-year?

[SophieB]

 

 

Of course based on the real life example of Marion Davies, who was actually a rather well-regarded comic actress, but Hearst didn't want her doing the pratfalls/pie-in-face &c once he was publicly linked to her, just forced her continually into costume dramas.  Essentially he tried to turn Amy Schumer into Kate Winslet.

 
Yeah, she’s so good in comedy films like Show People, hilarious. Maybe he does need to go play Tennis after all, following this analogy.

[Jops14]

Lawrence: Checks pockets and back of sofa to see if he can cover it.

Nah Aramco have his back on that lol

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I imagine there are unique challenges in Lance's situation.  Everyone on the team with an ounce of competitive spirit looks at you like a liability they're saddled with, but obviously they're not saying it out loud, and instead are looking for ways to say something positive.  You can perceive it anyway, though, if you're not a moron, and it must not be a pleasant feeling.