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Failures of Motorsports - Car Designs, Team Mistakes and More


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#251 SamoanAttorney

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 06:07

You are correct, I forgot that for one year it was a heads-up contest; I guess I was so pissed it lasted only one year, I conviently ignored it. :smoking:

 

Here is one Corvette attempt, by a single dude against all odds, that showed, nowadays, money comes first, but it was a valiant effort.

 

https://www.imsa.com...ck-widow-power/

042021_5.jpg

 

 

Bob,

 

I was lucky enough to cover most of those races in 2000 for Don's magazine.....and you are right to be disappointed, a battle between Viper and Vette would have been a highlight of any endurance racing championship. However, the Viper had reached the end of its development (and budget), whereas Vette, thanks to Pratt & Miller and Doug Fehan, were only at the beginning of their journey. A case of what might have been.....

 

The red monster in the photo was another case of a dream that did not realise its potential...... 

 

jb



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#252 WonderWoman61

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:12

You are correct, I forgot that for one year it was a heads-up contest; I guess I was so pissed it lasted only one year, I conviently ignored it. :smoking:
 
Here is one Corvette attempt, by a single dude against all odds, that showed, nowadays, money comes first, but it was a valiant effort.
 
https://www.imsa.com...ck-widow-power/
042021_5.jpg

Whoa! That car looks WICK-ED!

#253 WonderWoman61

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:17

Fact,, 2 litres were boring. Buzzy little engines that though they were hitech. Spectators thought so as well,, and did NOT come in their droves.
I arrived at the Mallala round at 10am, the queu was huge. One car!! Try doing that then for the V8s and you would be back in Mallala. I feel there was generally more for a club meeting than the higher entry 2litres.

No wonder Supertouring never caught on in the States.

#254 BRG

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:06

No wonder Supertouring never caught on in the States.

Well, Lee is in Australia, but Supertouring never really caught on there either. 

 

In both the US and Australia, it appears that race fans cannot cope with anything but V8 engines probably because that was what their parents drove..  Whereas in Europe (and elsewhere) our old folks drove Austin Minis, Renault 8s and Ford 100Es with four pot motors, so those are what rings our bells.



#255 WonderWoman61

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:26

Well, Lee is in Australia, but Supertouring never really caught on there either. 
 
In both the US and Australia, it appears that race fans cannot cope with anything but V8 engines probably because that was what their parents drove..  Whereas in Europe (and elsewhere) our old folks drove Austin Minis, Renault 8s and Ford 100Es with four pot motors, so those are what rings our bells.

Well, why didn't he say so? I have never been to Australia and I thought he was referring to the North American Touring Car Championship.

#256 WonderWoman61

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:31

Fact,, 2 litres were boring. Buzzy little engines that though they were hitech. Spectators thought so as well,, and did NOT come in their droves.
I arrived at the Mallala round at 10am, the queu was huge. One car!! Try doing that then for the V8s and you would be back in Mallala. I feel there was generally more for a club meeting than the higher entry 2litres.


That was in Australia though and Supertouring lasted from 1993 to 2002.

The post refers to the USA and Canada where Supertouring only lasted 2 seasons.

#257 ensign14

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:50

I think given that Red Bull are almost literally a league ahead thanks to breaching the costs rules, we can put the FIA's cost cap penalties in this as abject failure.



#258 WonderWoman61

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:03

I think given that Red Bull are almost literally a league ahead thanks to breaching the costs rules, we can put the FIA's cost cap penalties in this as abject failure.


The implementation and then scrapping of the 2009 budget cap springs to mind. Screwed up the 2010 newcomers before they had even started.

#259 10kDA

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 13:03

Well, Lee is in Australia, but Supertouring never really caught on there either. 

 

In both the US and Australia, it appears that race fans cannot cope with anything but V8 engines probably because that was what their parents drove..  Whereas in Europe (and elsewhere) our old folks drove Austin Minis, Renault 8s and Ford 100Es with four pot motors, so those are what rings our bells.

That's a generalization about US fans that does not hold up. About the rest, I wouldn't know. Many US fans are tunnel-vision-ly brand-oriented, seeking validation for the make and model they have purchased and drive. NASCAR plays into that behavior, to their (once great) profit. Not everyone in the US falls into that line, I assure you. Back in the single seat Can-Am days it was the best of all possible worlds, for me at least.  F Atlantics and Super Vees as support races, which were equally interesting for me as the main events. And then the VW Rabbit race which was often the most entertaining of the entire weekend, especially Turn 1, Lap 1 LOL. Hmmm... are near-stock Rabbits "Touring cars"?



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#260 E1pix

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 13:27

I well recall close to half of the Rabbit field being off-track in Turn 5 at Road America, on the first lap in maybe 1976. Or were they Sciroccos?

Great stuff. They were indeed eight cylinders, per the theory, when two were bump-drafting. ;-)

#261 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 13:28

Well, Lee is in Australia, but Supertouring never really caught on there either. 

 

In both the US and Australia, it appears that race fans cannot cope with anything but V8 engines probably because that was what their parents drove..  Whereas in Europe (and elsewhere) our old folks drove Austin Minis, Renault 8s and Ford 100Es with four pot motors, so those are what rings our bells.

Tiny tourers generally had 4 cars, 2 Bimmers and 2 Audis that sometimes actually raced. And once the Bimmer drivers crashed each other out!

The rest were a pile of broken down junk wheezing and spluttering around. The British championship was usually a demo derby.

Anyone EVER excited about Minis [we may except a Cooper S] R8s 100Es really need a life. . They were at best mechanised transport. 

I grew up around as a kid a 34 Ford V8 soft top then Vanguards and later Holdens. Ane we regularly attended speedway with then solos, sidecars, TQs Speedcars [Midgets] Heavy Stockcars and later Supermodifieds into Sprintcars plus sedans.



#262 10kDA

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 13:42

I well recall close to half of the Rabbit field being off-track in Turn 5 at Road America, on the first lap in maybe 1976. Or were they Sciroccos?

Great stuff. They were indeed eight cylinders, per the theory, when two were bump-drafting. ;-)

I think it was still Scirocco Cup in 76. I remember a few years in Rabbit Cup when one was left spinning on its top as the pack "screamed" (and tried to stream) thru 5, lap 1 LOL



#263 E1pix

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 14:36

Pretty sure that was Paul Hacker.

Not sure why I suddenly smell double brats…

#264 10kDA

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 14:50

Brats for breakfast!



#265 Bob Riebe

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 18:22

Well, Lee is in Australia, but Supertouring never really caught on there either. 

 

In both the US and Australia, it appears that race fans cannot cope with anything but V8 engines probably because that was what their parents drove..  Whereas in Europe (and elsewhere) our old folks drove Austin Minis, Renault 8s and Ford 100Es with four pot motors, so those are what rings our bells.

Over here, the Trans-Am did have the Under Two Liter class and later the 2.5 class, which briefly, very briefly, caught some interest.

First with Alfa Romeo vs BMW, and later Datsun vs Alfa Romeo but as there were no competetive U.S. makes because Detroit was spending, adjusted for inflation,  millions on the 305 class, they simply drew little interest.

 

 It got as much interest as it did probably because Alfa and BMW were Exotic names and later because Datsun was spending money to become well known and the 240Z  was catching the interest of a lot young dudes at the time.

A side affair that also gave the buzz bombs a lift was that AMATEUR racing at the time was amateur in name only with British makes vs Japanese make spending a lot of money on races that paid no money and  Paul Newman being a competetive racer for Datsun made all the stars align briefly but it all fell apart in 1981 when the SCCA decded to adopt NASCAR tube frame follies. -- (I remember well the article  where a SCCA spokesman said just that.) :o :o :o



#266 Bob Riebe

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 18:23

Pretty sure that was Paul Hacker.

Not sure why I suddenly smell double brats…

I am shivering with memories of a cold shower.

 

I do not know why but even though it is 41 degrees outside, I want to fire up the charcoal burner and cook some brats!!!


Edited by Bob Riebe, 20 April 2024 - 18:25.


#267 WonderWoman61

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 18:33

What have I started just by mentioning the North American Touring Car Championship?

#268 E1pix

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Posted 20 April 2024 - 19:12

You’ve started fun.

I am shivering with memories of a cold shower.

Shower? (LOL)

#269 WonderWoman61

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Posted 21 April 2024 - 16:59

Fact,, 2 litres were boring. Buzzy little engines that though they were hitech. Spectators thought so as well,, and did NOT come in their droves.
I arrived at the Mallala round at 10am, the queu was huge. One car!! Try doing that then for the V8s and you would be back in Mallala. I feel there was generally more for a club meeting than the higher entry 2litres.


In that respect, the Supertouring Bathurst 1000, lasted as long as the NATCC. Just 2 years.

#270 WonderWoman61

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Posted 28 April 2024 - 13:40

The "Third World" Racing Rovers

In the 1983 British Saloon Car Championship, the first year of the Group A regs that preceded Supertouring, the works Austin Rover Group team consisting of Tom Walkinshaw Racing and their trio of Rover Vitesses (or SD1s) dominated the top class (there were only 3 classes in 1983), winning all 11 races with Steve Soper winning the title outright from team-mate Peter Lovett by 5 points (68-63). Only the middle class Champion Andy Rouse in his Alfa Romeo managed to split the TWR Rovers in the outright standings, outscoring Jeff Allam by 8 points and just 2 behind Lovett. Such was the extent of the TWR Rovers' dominance that their nearest challenger in their class was Tony Lanfranchi's Opel Monza with only a quarter of the amount of points Soper scored and only 16th overall outright.

Job done, right? Well, no.

During the 7th round of the Championship at Donington Park, Frank Sytner of the BMW team protested the TWR Rovers over the size of their rear wheel arch inserts. The claims that the TWR Rovers' rear wheel-arches were over-sized and non-homologated parts were included in their engines, suspicions suggested the inclusion of Volvo rockers as used on the TR8 rally cars using the same basic V8 engine. The counter claim was that the covers had been ‘found’ at the Solihull factory and used in good will. TWR attempted to argue that there was such a thing as an Africa market SD1 with larger wheel arches to cope with mud, hence the nickname ''Third World Racing". The protests continued into the following two races but then appeared to die down.

For now.

The protests and scrutineering continued into the 1984 season and the matter was eventually taken to a Tribunal of Enquiry, chaired by veteran legal counsel Lord Hartley Shawcross. The result was the RAC disqualified the Rover team entirely over bodywork irregularities and engine installation issues, handing the 1983 title to Rouse, by which time, it was July 1984, over a year after Sytner's initial protest. The Austin Rover Group immediately withdrew all their entries (including those in the lower classes) from the Championship (by which time, 6 races had taken place in 1984) and all their points were redistributed. The TWR Rover trio were allowed to keep all their points from 1983 though, similar to Michael Schumacher in the 1997 F1 season.

Tom Walkinshaw did make a one-off guest appearance in one of his Rovers in 1985 at Brands Hatch and won, with Jeff Allam repeating that feat in 1986, but otherwise, the damage to the championship's reputation and those of all else concerned was done and the repercussions continued into 1985 and 1986 with the BSCC losing entries left, right and centre until it was changed to its current name of the British Touring Car Championship for the 1987 season. Ironically, Andy Rouse won the 1984 title in his own Rover Vitesse that was legal and the car would race in the series until the end of the 1988 season. The biggest loser out of this whole sorry saga though was Steve Soper who was destined never to win the title in his domestic tin-top series though he did go on to win the Japanese title in 1995.

The recent passing of Alan Minshaw, who was the bottom class Champion in 1983 and ended up as the outright Runner-up after the Rover exclusion, brought this to my attention. To dominate a championship to the point of taking a clean sweep of the race wins and then lose it all several months into the following season because it turned out you were running illegal parts on your cars the whole time makes for a rather glaring and embarrassing failure. At least TWR were able to rebuild their reputation running the works Volvo team in the 1990s and ARG were able to narrowly prevent a Vauxhall clean sweep in 2001 when they returned as a works team under the MG Rover moniker, with the win in question coming, somewhat appropriately, at Brands Hatch!

#271 WonderWoman61

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Posted 27 May 2024 - 18:05

https://racer.com/20...le-the-lead-up/

https://racer.com/20...isible-monster/

https://racer.com/20...silent-running/

This is really open to interpretation.

#272 10kDA

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Posted 27 May 2024 - 19:46

Well, the event was a failure but the success was that nobody got killed.



#273 WonderWoman61

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Posted 27 May 2024 - 20:15

Well, the event was a failure but the success was that nobody got killed.


Exactly, open to interpretation, now why can't F1 adopt such a mentality without making a total ass of itself and everyone involved?

Indygate happened only 4 years later after all.

#274 nexfast

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Posted 27 May 2024 - 22:41

 

Eddie Gossage is not controlling the narrative anymore; he died on May 16th.



#275 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 May 2024 - 11:05

Eddie Gossage is not controlling the narrative anymore; he died on May 16th.


It was Marshall Pruett who wrote the article

#276 nexfast

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Posted 29 May 2024 - 12:48

Yes, and it is his text that contends that Gossage was controlling the narrative.



#277 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 May 2024 - 14:02

Yes, and it is his text that contends that Gossage was controlling the narrative.


Well, who knows? That's just how Pruett perceived it.

#278 10kDA

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Posted 29 May 2024 - 14:07

And he quoted Chris Kneifel as flat out saying it.



#279 WonderWoman61

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Posted 29 May 2024 - 17:41

Well, who knows? That's just how Pruett perceived it.

  

And he quoted Chris Kneifel as flat out saying it.


I reiterate my point about perception, applying to both Pruett and Kneifel.

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#280 LordAston

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Posted 01 June 2024 - 12:36

I’ll leave it up to you lot to decide if the Green GT deserves a place here. Fascinating concept but just a shame we have never seen it race.



#281 WonderWoman61

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Posted 01 June 2024 - 15:54

I’ll leave it up to you lot to decide if the Green GT deserves a place here. Fascinating concept but just a shame we have never seen it race.


Then it counts.

#282 WonderWoman61

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Posted 10 December 2024 - 19:02

Nissan had an unsuccessful attempt in Group A with the Sunny GTI-R contesting just 9 events bewteen 1991 and 1992 with different drivers including veteran Stig Blomqvist and a young Tommi Mäkinen, the car was relatively competitive but had a few flaws mostly being the uncompetitive Dunlop tyres, the awkwardly fitted intercooler which made the engine prone to overheating (to which they tried to fix it by fitting the light pod most of the times) and issues between Nissan Japan and Nissan Motorsport Europe.

The Sunny's best result was 3rd at the 1992 Rally Sweden, at the end of the year Nissan pulled the plug on the project, while it did not succeed in Group A it did in Group N, winning the title in 1992 with Grégoire de Mevius at the wheel.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 10 December 2024 - 19:04.


#283 WonderWoman61

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Posted 10 December 2024 - 19:25

Suzuki in WRC just as it imploded!

The Suzuki SX4 WRC was an ill-conceived project. It was nice to see new manufacturers get on-board, and the SX4 certainly wasn't a bad car, but Suzuki clearly hadn't done their research and baulked at the idea of long-term investment. So the whole team was run on a shoestring budget and the car had limited development. It's a wonder the likes of Toni Gardemeister and Harri Rovanpera achieved anything with it.

(My 2000th Post!)

Edited by WonderWoman61, 10 December 2024 - 19:26.


#284 Lee Nicolle

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Posted Yesterday, 02:14

The "Third World" Racing Rovers

In the 1983 British Saloon Car Championship, the first year of the Group A regs that preceded Supertouring, the works Austin Rover Group team consisting of Tom Walkinshaw Racing and their trio of Rover Vitesses (or SD1s) dominated the top class (there were only 3 classes in 1983), winning all 11 races with Steve Soper winning the title outright from team-mate Peter Lovett by 5 points (68-63). Only the middle class Champion Andy Rouse in his Alfa Romeo managed to split the TWR Rovers in the outright standings, outscoring Jeff Allam by 8 points and just 2 behind Lovett. Such was the extent of the TWR Rovers' dominance that their nearest challenger in their class was Tony Lanfranchi's Opel Monza with only a quarter of the amount of points Soper scored and only 16th overall outright.

Job done, right? Well, no.

During the 7th round of the Championship at Donington Park, Frank Sytner of the BMW team protested the TWR Rovers over the size of their rear wheel arch inserts. The claims that the TWR Rovers' rear wheel-arches were over-sized and non-homologated parts were included in their engines, suspicions suggested the inclusion of Volvo rockers as used on the TR8 rally cars using the same basic V8 engine. The counter claim was that the covers had been ‘found’ at the Solihull factory and used in good will. TWR attempted to argue that there was such a thing as an Africa market SD1 with larger wheel arches to cope with mud, hence the nickname ''Third World Racing". The protests continued into the following two races but then appeared to die down.

For now.

The protests and scrutineering continued into the 1984 season and the matter was eventually taken to a Tribunal of Enquiry, chaired by veteran legal counsel Lord Hartley Shawcross. The result was the RAC disqualified the Rover team entirely over bodywork irregularities and engine installation issues, handing the 1983 title to Rouse, by which time, it was July 1984, over a year after Sytner's initial protest. The Austin Rover Group immediately withdrew all their entries (including those in the lower classes) from the Championship (by which time, 6 races had taken place in 1984) and all their points were redistributed. The TWR Rover trio were allowed to keep all their points from 1983 though, similar to Michael Schumacher in the 1997 F1 season.

Tom Walkinshaw did make a one-off guest appearance in one of his Rovers in 1985 at Brands Hatch and won, with Jeff Allam repeating that feat in 1986, but otherwise, the damage to the championship's reputation and those of all else concerned was done and the repercussions continued into 1985 and 1986 with the BSCC losing entries left, right and centre until it was changed to its current name of the British Touring Car Championship for the 1987 season. Ironically, Andy Rouse won the 1984 title in his own Rover Vitesse that was legal and the car would race in the series until the end of the 1988 season. The biggest loser out of this whole sorry saga though was Steve Soper who was destined never to win the title in his domestic tin-top series though he did go on to win the Japanese title in 1995.

The recent passing of Alan Minshaw, who was the bottom class Champion in 1983 and ended up as the outright Runner-up after the Rover exclusion, brought this to my attention. To dominate a championship to the point of taking a clean sweep of the race wins and then lose it all several months into the following season because it turned out you were running illegal parts on your cars the whole time makes for a rather glaring and embarrassing failure. At least TWR were able to rebuild their reputation running the works Volvo team in the 1990s and ARG were able to narrowly prevent a Vauxhall clean sweep in 2001 when they returned as a works team under the MG Rover moniker, with the win in question coming, somewhat appropriately, at Brands Hatch!

Euro teams cheating? Never. Well except for the hardcare cheating. TWR was at the head of that. Rovers and Jags.  Though GpA Sierras were all cheats, Wheel wells and arches, mechanically etc etc as were a field of Cheaty Bimmers at from memory Spa.



#285 WonderWoman61

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Posted Yesterday, 11:23

Euro teams cheating? Never. Well except for the hardcare cheating. TWR was at the head of that. Rovers and Jags.  Though GpA Sierras were all cheats, Wheel wells and arches, mechanically etc etc as were a field of Cheaty Bimmers at from memory Spa.


Keep talking...

#286 Ray Bell

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Posted Yesterday, 12:36

I think the BMW exclusions of which Lee speaks were at Monza...

 

The Sierras did have some runs on the board, especially the ones excluded at Bathurst with wheel well discrepancies. Seemingly silly when Ford were so keen to help that they homologated 9" American final drives for them to run.

 

Of course, some would say they only broke one rule... they got caught.



#287 Henri Greuter

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Posted Yesterday, 13:31

Nissan had an unsuccessful attempt in Group A with the Sunny GTI-R contesting just 9 events bewteen 1991 and 1992 with different drivers including veteran Stig Blomqvist and a young Tommi Mäkinen, the car was relatively competitive but had a few flaws mostly being the uncompetitive Dunlop tyres, the awkwardly fitted intercooler which made the engine prone to overheating (to which they tried to fix it by fitting the light pod most of the times) and issues between Nissan Japan and Nissan Motorsport Europe.

The Sunny's best result was 3rd at the 1992 Rally Sweden, at the end of the year Nissan pulled the plug on the project, while it did not succeed in Group A it did in Group N, winning the title in 1992 with Grégoire de Mevius at the wheel.

 

 

 

Ah, the infamous `Interwarmer` lay-out 



#288 Lee Nicolle

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Posted Today, 02:26

Keep talking...

All well documented. And proven. Sierras rubbed out at Bathurst and most others intially knocked back by thye scruitineers. M3s won a race with several cars,, but were all illegal. 

TWR  Rovers were declared illegal after Toms effort to get South African guards approved in the claim they had bigger guards to drive on muddy roads. All total b/s. As was everything about him. The Jags were found in breach several times. The ONLY fast Jags were his. The Rover did have a couple of others near as fast. And Walkinshaw was NOT a better driver!!

The Volvos too had a LOT of issues. This just reading the media.



#289 Lee Nicolle

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Posted Today, 02:31

I think the BMW exclusions of which Lee speaks were at Monza...

 

The Sierras did have some runs on the board, especially the ones excluded at Bathurst with wheel well discrepancies. Seemingly silly when Ford were so keen to help that they homologated 9" American final drives for them to run.

 

Of course, some would say they only broke one rule... they got caught.

Ray, yess Dick homolagted the Harrop Dicky diff. Otherwise it had a diff from a Capri good for maybe 300hp. They were really a bloody terrible car but Dick made them fast and semi reliable. Went to England and blew off all the locals.

Gp A was built totally around turbo engines. Nothing really got a look in. Start with the fuel!

GpA Commondores had 9" diffs also