305 replies to this topic

[KWSN - DSM]

WonderWoman61, on 20 Dec 2023 - 15:04, said:

That was 2001 and Kaffer won 4 races. He was in Porsches in 2003.

 

So?

[KWSN - DSM]

WonderWoman61, on 20 Dec 2023 - 15:11, said:

https://www.reddit.c...0p7r/?context=3

 

Point being?

[opplock]

How bizarre. There is an thread with same title on something called Reddit and some of the posts are identically worded.

 

I think that is Mr Ferner's point. The obvious question is why?  

[WonderWoman61]

opplock, on 20 Dec 2023 - 18:10, said:

How bizarre. There is an thread with same title on something called Reddit and some of the posts are identically worded.
 
I think that is Mr Ferner's point. The obvious question is why?

Well I felt Mr. Ferner was being rather rude about it, even if he was trying to make a point, he's always being rude to me in some away or another and I have had enough of it!

Besides whatever he thinks I am playing at and what I am really playing at are two different things and generally none of his business!

[airbox]

I'm not a major poster to this forum (although I am a regular reader) but I am a little troubled by what I am seeing here.

 

Someone has posted the same question as this topic in another forum. Possibly the same person under a different user name. No problem there as far as I can see.

 

But seeing one poster coming onto this thread specifically to denigrate the content, and then coming back to do the same thing again months later might appear to be going a bit far.

 

I do appreciate that some members have been on the forum for decades and some have been here ever since it was created. But surely there is room for research and the more 'conversational' threads as well?

[Michael Ferner]

If you think I was rude to you, you clearly must be feeling guilty because I was only stating what you obviously did: you repeated posts from (at least one) other poster(s) verbatim, not even having the courtesy (or intellect?) to paraphrase, and that's not fair. And it's really not okay. It's really not okay, it's really not okay. You're supposed to care but all you do is take. Yeah, all you do is take.

 

 

Re airbox: you're missing the point. I am not against 'conversational threads' per se, as I've repeatedly pointed out. I have trouble, however, seeing the 'conversational' content of the posts by ww61.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 20 December 2023 - 22:38.

[WonderWoman61]

Michael Ferner, on 20 Dec 2023 - 22:29, said:

If you think I was rude to you, you clearly must be feeling guilty because I was only stating what you obviously did: you repeated posts from (at least one) other poster(s) verbatim, not even having the courtesy (or intellect?) to paraphrase, and that's not fair. And it's really not okay. It's really not okay, it's really not okay. You're supposed to care but all you do is take. Yeah, all you do is take.
 
 
Re airbox: you're missing the point. I am not against 'conversational threads' per se, as I've repeatedly pointed out. I have trouble, however, seeing the 'conversational' content of the posts by ww61.

No I don't. You just think that and frankly, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about, I am certainly not going to act upon the words of the one user on this whole forum who can't seem to ever stop finding an excuse to complain about pretty much every comment I make! I don't know what your problem is and I don't want to know but I am sick to the back teeth of you treating me the way you do! I have had enough of it! Just break the habit of a lifetime and leave me alone!

[Mallory Dan]

Fwiw, I'm with Michael on this. 

[Michael Ferner]

WonderWoman61, on 21 Dec 2023 - 00:37, said:

No I don't. You just think that and frankly, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about, I am certainly not going to act upon the words of the one user on this whole forum who can't seem to ever stop finding an excuse to complain about pretty much every comment I make! I don't know what your problem is and I don't want to know but I am sick to the back teeth of you treating me the way you do! I have had enough of it! Just break the habit of a lifetime and leave me alone!

 

The pleasure's all mine, I can assure you... 

 

Perhaps you should do what other people do, and that is to take (well meant) criticism on board and act accordingly, try to address the issues other people (and I'm not alone, that much I know!) have with what you do, and try to improve in general. It's the way forward for everybody in this world, nobody's born perfect (well, except for me, of course    ).

 

As a matter of fact, I am sick of this whole matter, too, and I don't wish to interact with you in any form any longer, so let's just hope you don't give reason, nuff said.

[WonderWoman61]

Michael Ferner, on 21 Dec 2023 - 09:29, said:

The pleasure's all mine, I can assure you... 
 
Perhaps you should do what other people do, and that is to take (well meant) criticism on board and act accordingly, try to address the issues other people (and I'm not alone, that much I know!) have with what you do, and try to improve in general. It's the way forward for everybody in this world, nobody's born perfect (well, except for me, of course    ).
 
As a matter of fact, I am sick of this whole matter, too, and I don't wish to interact with you in any form any longer, so let's just hope you don't give reason, nuff said.

There's criticism and there's what you do which is bordering on bullying because that's what you are and I don't have time for people like you so I am not going to waste anymore of it. If you have a problem with my comments then just ignore them. Simple as that. Goodbye and good riddance!

[Adrian Beese]

Administrator,please stop this, it has got out of hand

[WonderWoman61]

WonderWoman61, on 16 Dec 2023 - 18:43, said:

Can we class Team HARD's time in the BTCC in this thread? After all, only 1 win in over a decade of trying, now they have folded.

They're not dead yet but they are significantly downsized.

[PCC]

Gentle reminder to all who may have forgotten: if there's a thread here you don't like, you don't need to waste your time reading it - or waste even more time by posting in it. We already have 'content police' here; they're called moderators, and no one need feel the obligation to appoint themselves their surrogates.

[Sterzo]

Well said PCC, and it's great to see you back and posting, WonderWoman.

[E1pix]

I am literally embarrassed to be Male.

Edited by E1pix, 08 March 2024 - 04:33.

[WonderWoman61]

Sterzo, on 07 Mar 2024 - 22:06, said:

Well said PCC, and it's great to see you back and posting, WonderWoman.

Thank you.

Much appreciated.

[Secretariat]

Any thoughts on the Porsche Indycar program? I think the management structure was too reliant on Al Holbert getting off the ground that it could not survive his passing long term.

[WonderWoman61]

Secretariat, on 08 Mar 2024 - 20:14, said:

Any thoughts on the Porsche Indycar program? I think the management structure was too reliant on Al Holbert getting off the ground that it could not survive his passing long term.

Speaking of Porsche and single seaters, 1991 was the last time an F1 team changed engine suppliers while the season was still going because the 12 cylinder 3512 engine produced for Footwork/Arrows was just that underpowered, unreliable and uncompetitive, not to mention overweight. 5 DNFs and 7 DNQs in the first 6 races, including 2 consecutive double DNQs in Brazil and Imola and the furthest the engine got was 2/3 distance in Canada (the only race both cars qualified for while running the Porsche engine) with Stefan Johansson, and this wasn't even halfway through the first year of a four-year contract? Probably one of the worst engines ever to actually race in F1 (Motori-Moderni/Subaru Flat-12 and Life W12 don't count as they never pre-qualified).

https://web.archive....sche/index.html

Edited by WonderWoman61, 16 April 2024 - 18:11.

[WonderWoman61]

Anyone remember the first time Hyundai competed as a works team in the WRC with the Accent? Poor MSD, effectively went straight from one failure with Peugeot in the BTCC to another with Hyundai in the WRC. From 2000 to 2003, Hyundai usually found themselves fighting with Skoda for the wooden spoon (2002 being the one season where they didn't finish in the bottom two in the Manufacturer's Championship, they came 4th, 1 point ahead of Skoda and Mitsubishi but 57 behind Subaru). Reliability and budget constraints were the main bugbears, especially in 2002 and 2003, but the Hyundai Accent WRC, in all its iterations, only finished in the points 10 times in 48 rallies with 4th being the best result (Kenneth Eriksson, Australia 2000 and Alister McRae, Great Britain 2001). If we only count points scored by the drivers then Hyundai managed just 17 points in 4 years of trying. Results gradually worsened, with 5th for the soon-to-retire 4 time World Champion Juha Kankkunen in New Zealand being the peak in 2002 (not the best way to bow out for one of the WRC's most successful drivers really), and the aforementioned budget constraints eventually led to the team's withdrawal in 2003 with four rounds to go.

[WonderWoman61]

The Ligier Indycar.

Henri Greuter, on 16 Apr 2024 - 16:30, said:

Bizarre, maybe, yet it featured something that made this car still a kind of pioneer within CART.
 
The sloping upwards flaps on the side of the sidepods that you see, those are about the very first ones ever used in CART of this size.
It went even that far that once other cars began to adopt them as well, they were referred to as the "Ligier-Whoops", though that name eventually was lost again once the principle was more and more standard on the later Indycars.
 
Failure? Definitely.
Complete failure? Definitely not.

[WonderWoman61]

The North American Touring Car Championship

Yes, even America embraced the Supertouring regs that were all the rage in the 1990s, albeit briefly. Funded by Jerry Forsythe and run from Tampa by Roger Elliott (BTCC boss Alan Gow also providing input), the series kicked off in 1996 as a support series to the road and street course rounds of the CART Series.

https://us.motorspor...ounced/1664632/

Right away, interest from teams and manufacturers was lacking, only 10 cars turned up for the first meeting of the season at Lime Rock Park and only Chrysler was really properly committed via their Dodge brand. Although 8 different manufacturers took part in at least one meeting in that first season, only 4 were works entries and the number of entries all season peaked at 12. Not surprisingly, the series was dominated by American drivers with only Britain's Peter Hardman denying them a clean sweep of wins in Race 2 at Toronto. The most notable entries that year were CART stalwarts PacWest Racing running the late Mark Donohue's son David and ex-Indycar driver Dominic Dobson in Dodge Stratus' and Mario Andretti's other son Jeff in a Ford Mondeo but the title went to Randy Pobst in a Honda Accord.

The series survived into 1997 but, once again, never attracted more than 12 cars. There was even less interest from teams and manufacturers this time around, only 3 works teams and 7 different makes took part. At least there were more meetings (9 as opposed to 8) and more drivers took part (21 as opposed to 20 the previous year) and 6 of them did the full season (as opposed to just 4 in 1996). The title eventually went to Donohue, but if not for a disqualification at Detroit and missing the Portland rounds, Australian Touring Car ace Neil Crompton could have spoiled the party for the Americans as his 7 wins handsomely outnumbered everyone else and ensured a clean sweep of NATCC Manufacturer's titles for Honda. The only other notable competitor that year was South African lady driver Desire Wilson and for the reasons mentioned above, as well as Dodge pulling out at the end of 1997, the series did not continue into 1998 and folded.

https://www.allpar.c...96-1997.157260/

Though, given the existence of NASCAR, any attempt at a different kind of tin-top series in North America was likely doomed to failure right from the very beginning. At least the NATCC actually took off and lasted two whole seasons whereas the American TCR never got off the ground.

Edited by WonderWoman61, 20 April 2024 - 09:11.

[10kDA]

Re: NATCC - this series never showed up on my radar at all, though my disclaimer is that I don't generally have much interest in sedan racing. This is the first I can recall reading about it. I'm not so sure about different forms of tin-top racing in the US being squashed by NASCAR. IMSA GTO/GTU did very well for a long time, and as I recall the rules stated the roof panels had to be from the production cars the racers purported to be, so they really were steel if not tin, even if all the rest of the body was glass or plastic. And except for a hiccup in the mid-aughties, SCCA's Trans Am has been running since the late '60s. Given the car models mentioned as running in NATCC, I think that was the major factor in lack of interest. Seems hugely boring.

[WonderWoman61]

10kDA, on 17 Apr 2024 - 15:14, said:

Re: NATCC - this series never showed up on my radar at all, though my disclaimer is that I don't generally have much interest in sedan racing. This is the first I can recall reading about it. I'm not so sure about different forms of tin-top racing in the US being squashed by NASCAR. IMSA GTO/GTU did very well for a long time, and as I recall the rules stated the roof panels had to be from the production cars the racers purported to be, so they really were steel if not tin, even if all the rest of the body was glass or plastic. And except for a hiccup in the mid-aughties, SCCA's Trans Am has been running since the late '60s. Given the car models mentioned as running in NATCC, I think that was the major factor in lack of interest. Seems hugely boring.

I meant Touring Car Racing.

[10kDA]

WonderWoman61, on 17 Apr 2024 - 19:23, said:

I meant Touring Car Racing.

So something more along the lines of Kellygirl/Kelly American Challenge, IMSA RS, Goodrich Radial series, Champion Spark Plug Challenge? These were all IMSA classes/series. I remember they typically ran the same weekend as the Camel GT or GTP-GTO-GTU events but not on track with the faster cars. Just trying to zero in on the type of cars to which you refer.

[WonderWoman61]

10kDA, on 17 Apr 2024 - 20:44, said:

So something more along the lines of Kellygirl/Kelly American Challenge, IMSA RS, Goodrich Radial series, Champion Spark Plug Challenge? These were all IMSA classes/series. I remember they typically ran the same weekend as the Camel GT or GTP-GTO-GTU events but not on track with the faster cars. Just trying to zero in on the type of cars to which you refer.

http://www.supertouringregister.com/

[Bob Riebe]

After the original Sedan road race series in the U.S. Trans-Am died (I know it still exists in some odd form but the schtick that made it so succesful died when, cars became tube-frame farces and Detroit totally left so Porsche picked up the skeleton) and stock car racing, in any form became tube-frame farce, the chance of any Sedan/GT series in the  U.S. being more than a whimsy wannabe was totally gone.

 

The GT1 series from the turn of the Century had a chance but Chevy Corvette did not show up till the year after Dodge Viper pulled out.

Only really good year was 2003 when factory assisted Ferraris took on Chevrolet Corvette teams heads-up, one year and pfft;  after that it morped into a total spec. series farce.

[E1pix]

Our friend Bob Schader ran a Mazda in the NATCC in 1997. All we witnessed was Mid-Ohio, but gotta say, it was GREAT!  

 

I've been back in touch with an old friend from Trans-Am, Lou Gigliotti, on a special project. So awesome to reconnect with a friend from 1976 (!). He's the only privateer Corvette racer to ever beat the factory cars.

 

We discovered we had a mutual friend die in a Trans-Am car. Ah, the highs and lows of racing can sure draw from the same passions, yet somehow we all carry on in love with it regardless.

 

RIP, "Gags."

[WonderWoman61]

E1pix, on 18 Apr 2024 - 00:17, said:

Our friend Bob Schader ran a Mazda in the NATCC in 1997. All we witnessed was Mid-Ohio, but gotta say, it was GREAT!  
 
I've been back in touch with an old friend from Trans-Am, Lou Gigliotti, on a special project. So awesome to reconnect with a friend from 1976 (!). He's the only privateer Corvette racer to ever beat the factory cars.
 
We discovered we had a mutual friend die in a Trans-Am car. Ah, the highs and lows of racing can sure draw from the same passions, yet somehow we all carry on in love with it regardless.
 
RIP, "Gags."

"Gags"?

[Henri Greuter]

Secretariat, on 08 Mar 2024 - 20:14, said:

Any thoughts on the Porsche Indycar program? I think the management structure was too reliant on Al Holbert getting off the ground that it could not survive his passing long term.

 

 

The Porsche CART eploits of 87-90  were nowhere near as bad as they are said to be.

 

Bad start with the own 2708 chassis. Though I have heard rumours that it had improved substatially during the winger of 87/88 but certain parties within teh organisation preferred to play safe with using what was believed to be a more stable platform built by a company with recent experience within CART: in thas case March.  If this is true, I don't know but it is something I've heard.

 

Then: 1988 sharing the misery of just about every other March customer team in 1988 being saddled up with a car (88C) that had a very narrow window of perfection and difficult to find this sweetspot in a year when March had started to loose the plot. This on top of developping its own engine and the learning curve that comes with such an enterprise.

 

Then 1989 the team was really coming cood after a hesitant early start. Back then in those years it was believed to be that the Porsche engine wasn't up to the standards of the Chevy V8 yet and the decent performance of the car in the second half of the year being largely due to the March 89P chassis being very good. I was told by someone within the project that it was more the other way around: the Porsche engine being much better late 89 than many wanted to believe with the chassis not that excellent as it was believed to be.

(There is some indirect evidence for that theory I won't deal with over here)

 

Then: 1990:  The less we say about that year the better because this was a disgraceful act of CART team owners backtracking on a rule that had been made but when it became obvuous that one of the two factory teams planned to make use of it this rule being altered with reasons that were not relevant but only had the intention to prevent CART season 1990 being dominated by a team with an exclusive advantage, not carrying the name of one of the etablished CART entrants. All of this inspired on the fear of what Porsche was capable of given their raise to the front in the second half of 1989. 

With hindsight, Porsche may well have gone too far because of the car they built being perhapst too radical and too innovative to stand a chance. The basic design of the 90P was promising. Had it been built according the regular rules for chassis construction it might have been difficult enough for the car to be competitive. But the sudden rule changes, introduced on purpose to effectively eliminate its other main advantage (lightweight all carbon monocoque) made the car an instant also-run from the very beginning.

The 1990 Porsche that eventually ran was a compromise and nowhere near the intended car as it was designed originally  and it not living up to the expectations can not be hold agaisnt it: it never got a fair chance. Due to the revolutionary features within the basic design I won't say that the car could have been a certain winner, lagter on the team had admitted that the basic desing caused some complications. But made overweigth big time due to a sudden rule change, specifically aimed at it, no that did not help at all.

What went lost in all of this: the Porsche engine was by that time quite good and close, if not equal to the Chevy.

 

 

Porsche CART '87-90 a failure? If rated so, then it deserves to be mentioned as being that while certain parties assisted to that to see it fail in order to protect their own interests they had within CART at that time.

 

 

 

 

If you want to list a European based CART exploit as a failure, ( besides Ligier)  how about Alfa Romeo between '89-91. Compared with them: Porsche was a success!

Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 April 2024 - 08:28.

[LittleChris]

WonderWoman61, on 18 Apr 2024 - 07:47, said:

"Gags"?

Mike Gagliardo I guess

[WonderWoman61]

Henri Greuter, on 18 Apr 2024 - 08:27, said:

The Porsche CART eploits of 87-90  were nowhere near as bad as they are said to be.
 
Bad start with the own 2708 chassis. Though I have heard rumours that it had improved substatially during the winger of 87/88 but certain parties within teh organisation preferred to play safe with using what was believed to be a more stable platform built by a company with recent experience within CART: in thas case March.  If this is true, I don't know but it is something I've heard.
 
Then: 1988 sharing the misery of just about every other March customer team in 1988 being saddled up with a car (88C) that had a very narrow window of perfection and difficult to find this sweetspot in a year when March had started to loose the plot. This on top of developping its own engine and the learning curve that comes with such an enterprise.
 
Then 1989 the team was really coming cood after a hesitant early start. Back then in those years it was believed to be that the Porsche engine wasn't up to the standards of the Chevy V8 yet and the decent performance of the car in the second half of the year being largely due to the March 89P chassis being very good. I was told by someone within the project that it was more the other way around: the Porsche engine being much better late 89 than many wanted to believe with the chassis not that excellent as it was believed to be.
(There is some indirect evidence for that theory I won't deal with over here)
 
Then: 1990:  The less we say about that year the better because this was a disgraceful act of CART team owners backtracking on a rule that had been made but when it became obvuous that one of the two factory teams planned to make use of it this rule being altered with reasons that were not relevant but only had the intention to prevent CART season 1990 being dominated by a team with an exclusive advantage, not carrying the name of one of the etablished CART entrants. All of this inspired on the fear of what Porsche was capable of given their raise to the front in the second half of 1989. 
With hindsight, Porsche may well have gone too far because of the car they built being perhapst too radical and too innovative to stand a chance. The basic design of the 90P was promising. Had it been built according the regular rules for chassis construction it might have been difficult enough for the car to be competitive. But the sudden rule changes, introduced on purpose to effectively eliminate its other main advantage (lightweight all carbon monocoque) made the car an instant also-run from the very beginning.
The 1990 Porsche that eventually ran was a compromise and nowhere near the intended car as it was designed originally  and it not living up to the expectations can not be hold agaisnt it: it never got a fair chance. Due to the revolutionary features within the basic design I won't say that the car could have been a certain winner, lagter on the team had admitted that the basic desing caused some complications. But made overweigth big time due to a sudden rule change, specifically aimed at it, no that did not help at all.
What went lost in all of this: the Porsche engine was by that time quite good and close, if not equal to the Chevy.
 
 
Porsche CART '87-90 a failure? If rated so, then it deserves to be mentioned as being that while certain parties assisted to that to see it fail in order to protect their own interests they had within CART at that time.
 
 
 
 
If you want to list a European based CART exploit as a failure, ( besides Ligier)  how about Alfa Romeo between '89-91. Compared with them: Porsche was a success!

Not the first time Porsche got screwed over by the US Open Wheel Racing scene.

https://www.drive.co...n-the-indy-500/

[Secretariat]

Henri Greuter, on 18 Apr 2024 - 08:27, said:

The Porsche CART eploits of 87-90  were nowhere near as bad as they are said to be.

 

 

Porsche CART '87-90 a failure? If rated so, then it deserves to be mentioned as being that while certain parties assisted to that to see it fail in order to protect their own interests they had within CART at that time.

 

 

If you want to list a European based CART exploit as a failure, ( besides Ligier)  how about Alfa Romeo between '89-91. Compared with them: Porsche was a success!

 

Thanks for that. I bring up the Holbert from a management point of view, but perhaps it impacted chassis development as well? Some combination of advancements made by Busby/Chapman/Holbert with the 962's (stiffness, design tweaks, ground effect and so on) could have helped with some of the failings of the March.
 

[Henri Greuter]

WonderWoman61, on 18 Apr 2024 - 11:26, said:

Not the first time Porsche got screwed over by the US Open Wheel Racing scene.

https://www.drive.co...n-the-indy-500/

 

 

Nice lnk but .......

 

That article you link has a awful big error!!!   Foyt did not use fourcylinder Offy engines by that time at all!!!!

In fact between 1968 and 1978 he had never used anything but Ford V8 Quadcam engines, initially atmo versions, from 1968 on turbocharged ones  and from 1970 on he had taken over the entire inventory to run them under his own name!  And he did a lot in order to gain and maintain that engine and the advantages it offered him exclusive to himself too, leaving other teams to do with Offies.

In 1979 he went over to using the very same kind of Parnelli chassis that Porsche intended to use for its 1980 efforts and with that Foyt had to channge over to the trubocharged Cosworth DFX engine too. The Ford/Foyt engine was of much older basic design, based on what had started out as a production engine derived racing engine (first version: 1963)  but the frontal area of the Turbo Ford/Foyt was much larger then that of the DFX and the inlet and exhaust lay-out on the Ford/Foyt V8 was also way more complicated . For a V8: the DFX was the better choise by then.

 

And by then Foyt, who was probably USAC's most favoured driver ever made sure that no "damn/ furr'ners" could make his quest for Indy victory #5 even more difficult then it was already.

 

 

 

I can't understand that this article stil stands nowadays without that blunder being corrected. Foyt never wanted anything to do with Offies anymere once he started to use Ford V8's since 1965. If my memory serves me well there was one Turbocharged Offy car he had built during the second half of 1967 when it was by then clear that the Atmo Ford V8 was overthrown by the Turbo Offies.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 April 2024 - 12:02.

[Henri Greuter]

Secretariat, on 18 Apr 2024 - 11:38, said:

Thanks for that. I bring up the Holbert from a management point of view, but perhaps it impacted chassis development as well? Some combination of advancements made by Busby/Chapman/Holbert with the 962's (stiffness, design tweaks, ground effect and so on) could have helped with some of the failings of the March.
 

 

 

It is well known that the only really well performing March 88C's were the ones fielded by Galles Racing, engineered by Alan Mertens. By chance one of the main dsigners of the 88C!  And legend has it that he had modified the cars so extensively that they were way different from the regular 88C's by then, even using parts of the elder 86C.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 April 2024 - 12:01.

[WonderWoman61]

Henri Greuter, on 18 Apr 2024 - 11:54, said:

Nice lnk but .......
 
That article you link has a awful big error!!!   Foyt did not use fourcylinder Offy engines by that time at all!!!!
In fact between 1968 and 1978 he had never used anything but Ford V8 Quadcam engines, initially atmo versions, from 1968 on turbocharged ones  and from 1970 on he had taken over the entire inventory to run them under his own name!  And he did a lot in order to gain and maintain that engine and the advantages it offered him exclusive to himself too, leaving other teams to do with Offies.
In 1979 he went over to using the very same kind of Parnelli chassis that Porsche intended to use for its 1980 efforts and with that Foyt had to channge over to the trubocharged Cosworth DFX engine too. The Ford/Foyt engine was of much older basic design, based on what had started out as a production engine derived racing engine (first version: 1963)  but the frontal area of the Turbo Ford/Foyt was much larger then that of the DFX and the inlet and exhaust lay-out on the Ford/Foyt V8 was also way more complicated . For a V8: the DFX was the better choise by then.
 
And by then Foyt, who was probably USAC's most favoured driver ever made sure that no "damn/ furr'ners" could make his quest for Indy victory #5 even more difficult then it was already.
 
 
 
I can't understand that this article stil stands nowadays without that blunder being corrected. Foyt never wanted anything to do with Offies anymere once he started to use Ford V8's since 1965. If my memory serves me well there was one Turbocharged Offy car he had built during the second half of 1967 when it was by then clear that the Atmo Ford V8 was overthrown by the Turbo Offies.

Well, it is on an Australian website, rather than an American one.

https://racing-retro...-racing-indycar
https://formula143.o...porsche-ongais/

[Henri Greuter]

WonderWoman61, on 18 Apr 2024 - 12:08, said:

Well, it is on an Australian website, rather than an American one.

https://racing-retro...-racing-indycar
https://formula143.o...porsche-ongais/

 

 

 

 

No matter who writes about it, with errors all over or not, the entire affair was a disgusting act of USAC, inspired by their favorite son.

Worst part of it was of course that with the advance of wing car technology arriving in Indycars as well, the Porsche Flat-6 only should have had one chance for success: 1980.

And even then, that particular year it would have been up against one single formidable competitor, one that was so utterly good that year that it became a legend in its own right and still is to this day;   "The Yellow Submarine" driven byJohnny Rutherford.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 April 2024 - 12:24.

[Michael Ferner]

I don't really see how Foyt was behind Porsche's 1980 woes. Fact is, USAC was spooked by the recent CanAm history of Porsche, and who could blame them. They were already trying to level the field with different boost allowances for 4- and eight-cylinder cars, and against a lot of background noise from the have-nots who complained about the eights being too expensive, and now here comes a fully fledged works effort with a new six and a history of bulldozering a once thriving series into the ground. No doubt, USAC didn't like the idea of Porsche winning Indy and dominating the field, with no one else having access to the same engine, and that was not only their goddamn right, it was their goddamn duty as a sanctioning body. Porsche was being naive, is the nicest way to put it.

[Henri Greuter]

Michael Ferner, on 18 Apr 2024 - 12:55, said:

I don't really see how Foyt was behind Porsche's 1980 woes. Fact is, USAC was spooked by the recent CanAm history of Porsche, and who could blame them. They were already trying to level the field with different boost allowances for 4- and eight-cylinder cars, and against a lot of background noise from the have-nots who complained about the eights being too expensive, and now here comes a fully fledged works effort with a new six and a history of bulldozering a once thriving series into the ground. No doubt, USAC didn't like the idea of Porsche winning Indy and dominating the field, with no one else having access to the same engine, and that was not only their goddamn right, it was their goddamn duty as a sanctioning body. Porsche was being naive, is the nicest way to put it.

 

 

 

Read who came over to Germany to inspect the Porsche engine....

 

And as for trying to level the field for 4 and 8 cylinders: They deemed that not necessary (yet)  when turbo boost was restricted for the first time 

[LordAston]

Has the Nardi Bisiluro been mentioned yet?

[WonderWoman61]

Henri Greuter, on 18 Apr 2024 - 11:54, said:

Nice lnk but .......
 
That article you link has a awful big error!!!   Foyt did not use fourcylinder Offy engines by that time at all!!!!
In fact between 1968 and 1978 he had never used anything but Ford V8 Quadcam engines, initially atmo versions, from 1968 on turbocharged ones  and from 1970 on he had taken over the entire inventory to run them under his own name!  And he did a lot in order to gain and maintain that engine and the advantages it offered him exclusive to himself too, leaving other teams to do with Offies.
In 1979 he went over to using the very same kind of Parnelli chassis that Porsche intended to use for its 1980 efforts and with that Foyt had to channge over to the trubocharged Cosworth DFX engine too. The Ford/Foyt engine was of much older basic design, based on what had started out as a production engine derived racing engine (first version: 1963)  but the frontal area of the Turbo Ford/Foyt was much larger then that of the DFX and the inlet and exhaust lay-out on the Ford/Foyt V8 was also way more complicated . For a V8: the DFX was the better choise by then.
 
And by then Foyt, who was probably USAC's most favoured driver ever made sure that no "damn/ furr'ners" could make his quest for Indy victory #5 even more difficult then it was already.
 
 
 
I can't understand that this article stil stands nowadays without that blunder being corrected. Foyt never wanted anything to do with Offies anymere once he started to use Ford V8's since 1965. If my memory serves me well there was one Turbocharged Offy car he had built during the second half of 1967 when it was by then clear that the Atmo Ford V8 was overthrown by the Turbo Offies.

Nobody's perfect.

[WonderWoman61]

LordAston, on 18 Apr 2024 - 13:51, said:

Has the Nardi Bisiluro been mentioned yet?

Not yet

[E1pix]

LittleChris, on 18 Apr 2024 - 08:38, said:

Mike Gagliardo I guess

 

Yes. 

[WonderWoman61]

10kDA, on 17 Apr 2024 - 20:44, said:

So something more along the lines of Kellygirl/Kelly American Challenge, IMSA RS, Goodrich Radial series, Champion Spark Plug Challenge? These were all IMSA classes/series. I remember they typically ran the same weekend as the Camel GT or GTP-GTO-GTU events but not on track with the faster cars. Just trying to zero in on the type of cars to which you refer.

  

WonderWoman61, on 17 Apr 2024 - 21:30, said:

http://www.supertouringregister.com/

There, that's what I meant.

[10kDA]

WonderWoman61, on 18 Apr 2024 - 20:16, said:

  
There, that's what I meant.

OK, I guess that explains why they were off my radar. I don't have any interest in that type of racing.

[SamoanAttorney]

Bob Riebe, on 17 Apr 2024 - 23:50, said:

After the original Sedan road race series in the U.S. Trans-Am died (I know it still exists in some odd form but the schtick that made it so succesful died when, cars became tube-frame farces and Detroit totally left so Porsche picked up the skeleton) and stock car racing, in any form became tube-frame farce, the chance of any Sedan/GT series in the  U.S. being more than a whimsy wannabe was totally gone.

 

The GT1 series from the turn of the Century had a chance but Chevy Corvette did not show up till the year after Dodge Viper pulled out.

Only really good year was 2003 when factory assisted Ferraris took on Chevrolet Corvette teams heads-up, one year and pfft;  after that it morped into a total spec. series farce.

Actually Corvette did battle with Viper at factory level in North America during 2000. At Daytona they finished 31 seconds behind the victorious Viper, both outfits having crushed the prototypes. Sebring saw Vette take class pole again but their challenge melted in the race. Corvette missed the next five rounds of the ALMS preparing and recovering from Le Mans, but the returned to the ALMS challenging ORECA. They scored wins at Las Vegas and Petit Le Mans and added much to a great season of racing.

[WonderWoman61]

10kDA, on 18 Apr 2024 - 21:35, said:

OK, I guess that explains why they were off my radar. I don't have any interest in that type of racing.

Each to their own

[LordAston]

Taken From Le Mans Website
 

LE MANS: STRANGE NARDI BISILURO

 

The asymmetrical car !

 

In 1938, the German airplane maker Blohm & Voss created several examples of asymmetrical bombers which, although nimble and fast, would not enjoy much success as part of the Luftwaffe. Several years later, an Italian would use the idea to his advantage, this time on four wheels...

Never lacking imagination, but often lacking the financial means, Enrico Nardi continued his quest to evolve the car from its first appearance in 1932. Considering the 24 Hours of Le Mans as the only event worthy of showcasing his ideas, he took on the challenge of beating French auto-makers Renault and Panhard in their favourite class of engines small than 750cc. After a debut cut short in only the second lap in 1954 (water pump), he returned the following year with an ambitious project, thanks to a unique perspective.

Rather than adapt the exterior forms to the chassis, why not design the ideal bodywork first, then adapt the rest of the car to it? Following this logic, Enrico Nardi hires engineer-architect Carlo Mollino to design a very aerodynamic car, with a radiator in the middle, which he sees as a wing. He then added all the essential elements to make the car totally asymmetrical, with two fuselages. The left side housed the engine and transmission while the right side carried the driver, who needed to be small in stature.

To improve the braking performance, the car was equipped with an aerodynamic flap in the center. The ingenious air brake unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your view) was replaced by a jumpseat (!) on the eve of the practice sessions, as the rules required a passenger seat in the car. Another innovation, the radiator was comprised of rectangular tubes aiming to disperse the heat thanks to the air flowing through them. Thre rest of the car was made up of various vehicles: Lancia Appia or Fiat 1100, with the entire weight totally only 400 kg.

During practice for the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the Nardi Bisiluro shows great speed (220 km/h) and performs very well in its class. Despite that, the drivers are worried to even turn around in the cockpit as the car requires a very soft touch due to extreme sensitivity to any change of direction. Even worse, they have a difficult time driving the car in a straight line! Their fears would come true in the race when after only 148 minutes, the  Bisiluro driven by Damonte is overtaken, or rather "blown" over by a Jaguar...

Retrieved from the ditch without much harm done to car or driver, the  Nardi Bisiluro would spend the rest of its days at the National Science and Technology Museum ‘Leonardo da Vinci’, in Milan.

[WonderWoman61]

LordAston, on 19 Apr 2024 - 20:54, said:

Taken From Le Mans Website[/size]
 
LE MANS: STRANGE NARDI BISILURO[/size]
 
The asymmetrical car ![/size]
 
In 1938, the German airplane maker Blohm & Voss created several examples of asymmetrical bombers which, although nimble and fast, would not enjoy much success as part of the Luftwaffe. Several years later, an Italian would use the idea to his advantage, this time on four wheels...[/size]
Never lacking imagination, but often lacking the financial means, Enrico Nardi continued his quest to evolve the car from its first appearance in 1932. Considering the 24 Hours of Le Mans as the only event worthy of showcasing his ideas, he took on the challenge of beating French auto-makers Renault and Panhard in their favourite class of engines small than 750cc. After a debut cut short in only the second lap in 1954 (water pump), he returned the following year with an ambitious project, thanks to a unique perspective.[/size]
Rather than adapt the exterior forms to the chassis, why not design the ideal bodywork first, then adapt the rest of the car to it? Following this logic, Enrico Nardi hires engineer-architect Carlo Mollino to design a very aerodynamic car, with a radiator in the middle, which he sees as a wing. He then added all the essential elements to make the car totally asymmetrical, with two fuselages. The left side housed the engine and transmission while the right side carried the driver, who needed to be small in stature.[/size]
To improve the braking performance, the car was equipped with an aerodynamic flap in the center. The ingenious air brake unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your view) was replaced by a jumpseat (!) on the eve of the practice sessions, as the rules required a passenger seat in the car. Another innovation, the radiator was comprised of rectangular tubes aiming to disperse the heat thanks to the air flowing through them. Thre rest of the car was made up of various vehicles: Lancia Appia or Fiat 1100, with the entire weight totally only 400 kg.[/size]
During practice for the 24 Hours of Le Mans, the Nardi Bisiluro shows great speed (220 km/h) and performs very well in its class. Despite that, the drivers are worried to even turn around in the cockpit as the car requires a very soft touch due to extreme sensitivity to any change of direction. Even worse, they have a difficult time driving the car in a straight line! Their fears would come true in the race when after only 148 minutes, the  Bisiluro driven by Damonte is overtaken, or rather "blown" over by a Jaguar...[/size]
Retrieved from the ditch without much harm done to car or driver, the  Nardi Bisiluro would spend the rest of its days at the National Science and Technology Museum ‘Leonardo da Vinci’, in Milan.[/size]

Too bad it had to be 1955...

[Bob Riebe]

SamoanAttorney, on 19 Apr 2024 - 06:34, said:

Actually Corvette did battle with Viper at factory level in North America during 2000. At Daytona they finished 31 seconds behind the victorious Viper, both outfits having crushed the prototypes. Sebring saw Vette take class pole again but their challenge melted in the race. Corvette missed the next five rounds of the ALMS preparing and recovering from Le Mans, but the returned to the ALMS challenging ORECA. They scored wins at Las Vegas and Petit Le Mans and added much to a great season of racing.

You are correct, I forgot that for one year it was a heads-up contest; I guess I was so pissed it lasted only one year, I conviently ignored it.

 

Here is one Corvette attempt, by a single dude against all odds, that showed, nowadays, money comes first, but it was a valiant effort.

 

https://www.imsa.com...ck-widow-power/

[Lee Nicolle]

WonderWoman61, on 17 Apr 2024 - 14:34, said:

The North American Touring Car Championship

Yes, even America embraced the Supertouring regs that were all the rage in the 1990s, albeit briefly. Funded by Jerry Forsythe and run from Tampa by Roger Elliott (BTCC boss Alan Gow also providing input), the series kicked off in 1996 as a support series to the road and street course rounds of the CART Series.

https://us.motorspor...ounced/1664632/

Right away, interest from teams and manufacturers was lacking, only 10 cars turned up for the first meeting of the season at Lime Rock Park and only Chrysler was really properly committed via their Dodge brand. Although 8 different manufacturers took part in at least one meeting in that first season, only 4 were works entries and the number of entries all season peaked at 12. Not surprisingly, the series was dominated by American drivers with only Britain's Peter Hardman denying them a clean sweep of wins in Race 2 at Toronto. The most notable entries that year were CART stalwarts PacWest Racing running the late Mark Donohue's son David and ex-Indycar driver Dominic Dobson in Dodge Stratus' and Mario Andretti's other son Jeff in a Ford Mondeo but the title went to Randy Pobst in a Honda Accord.

The series survived into 1997 but, once again, never attracted more than 12 cars. There was even less interest from teams and manufacturers this time around, only 3 works teams and 7 different makes took part. At least there were more meetings (9 as opposed to 8) and more drivers took part (21 as opposed to 20 the previous year) and 6 of them did the full season (as opposed to just 4 in 1996) and the series was popular with fans. The title eventually went to Donohue, but if not for a disqualification at Detroit and missing the Portland rounds, Australian Touring Car ace Neil Crompton could have spoiled the party for the Americans as his 7 wins handsomely outnumbered everyone else and ensured a clean sweep of NATCC Manufacturer's titles for Honda. The only other notable competitor that year was South African lady driver Desire Wilson and for the reasons mentioned above, as well as Dodge pulling out at the end of 1997, the series did not continue into 1998 and folded.

https://www.allpar.c...96-1997.157260/

Though, given the existence of NASCAR, any attempt at a different kind of tin-top series in North America was likely doomed to failure right from the very beginning. At least the NATCC actually took off and lasted two whole seasons whereas the American TCR never got off the ground.

Fact,, 2 litres were boring. Buzzy little engines that though they were hitech. Spectators thought so as well,, and did NOT come in their droves.

I arrived at the Mallala round at 10am, the queu was huge. One car!! Try doing that then for the V8s and you would be back in Mallala. I feel there was generally more for a club meeting than the higher entry 2litres.