94 replies to this topic

[flatlandsman]

Who cares, he won it as soon as he sat int he damn thing.

 

I prefer to spend my time watching stuff where the winner is less predictable

 

In other news his Dad won his first big rally this weekend! Far more interesting

[Beri]

But that'll keep the championship artificially more open if the majority are at the end of the calendar. Such joy

 

Nah at least the Sprint Race™®©  does offer a more fair distribution of points, compared to whatever Formula One was attempting at Abu Dhabi 2014.

[Beri]

If you don't like sprints and don't have the time to watch them then it obviously is going to be annoying for the decisive moment of the championship to happen during one of them.

 

But it can't be a surprise -- the only way to avoid this would be to isolate the sprints from the championship by making them totally standalone events.

 

Surely an unintended consequence though. Wouldn't Liberty want maximum eyes on F1 at the time when a driver clinches the world championship? 

 

Great idea. Where do we start the petition?

[PayasYouRace]

If you don't like sprints and don't have the time to watch them then it obviously is going to be annoying for the decisive moment of the championship to happen during one of them.

But it can't be a surprise -- the only way to avoid this would be to isolate the sprints from the championship by making them totally standalone events.

Surely an unintended consequence though. Wouldn't Liberty want maximum eyes on F1 at the time when a driver clinches the world championship?

When a driver is securing the championship with so many races to go it’s hardly a decisive moment though.

[LolaB0860]

Nah at least the Sprint Race™®©  does offer a more fair distribution of points, compared to whatever Formula One was attempting at Abu Dhabi 2014.

 

That laughable race never happened

[LolaB0860]

I wonder how much Saturday-ticket costs, if you're only going to see max 75 minutes of racing. Anyway, the crowd probably consists of CGI figures or employees of the organizer who are forced to sit there.

 

General admission for Saturday-only was 129,9 euros, apparently

https://www.lcsc.qa/...Tickets-2023-f1

 

Such value!

Edited by LolaB0860, 26 September 2023 - 20:15.

[AustinF1]

"As you can see, it was the F1 SPRINT ™ that really decided the championship, which really shows the progress Liberty made in constructing the best possible entertainment model for our fans as well as economically working concept for our trusted partners. This year, 16 F1 Sprints ™ are on the cards in addition to 24 Grand Prix, making it even number of 40 races that is easy to remember for fans, stakeholders and partners. Finally, we are pleased to announce the introduction of awarding championship point for the fastest sprint car in the F1 SPRINT SHOOTOUT ™, truly emphasizing the importance of being as fast in 100 meter run as when running a marathon."

Sprint car, you say? Now that's something to get excited about ...

 

[AustinF1]

If you don't like sprints and don't have the time to watch them then it obviously is going to be annoying for the decisive moment of the championship to happen during one of them.

 

But it can't be a surprise -- the only way to avoid this would be to isolate the sprints from the championship by making them totally standalone events.

 

Surely an unintended consequence though. Wouldn't Liberty want maximum eyes on F1 at the time when a driver clinches the world championship? 

Yep, which is what many have said from the beginning. If points must be given, then separate it from the WCC & WDC. It fits perfectly with with my proposed Sprint Weekend format. Having GP Qualifying on Friday is beyond idiotic. This makes much more sense imho:

 

Fri: FP, Sprint Qualifying

Sat: Sprint Race, GP Qualifying

Sun: GP

 

And yeah, surely FOM would rather not have the championship decided on a Saturday. I hadn't even thought about it from the tv/eyeballs angle. 

Edited by AustinF1, 27 September 2023 - 16:57.

[Fraser1994]

Max doesn’t really care how he wins them

[cheekybru]

Especially after 2021 being spoiled by all the controversy and finding out about 2022 from Johnny Herbert. Poor guy just can't catch a break.

Could someone remind me what happened with Herbert please?

[PayasYouRace]

Could someone remind me what happened with Herbert please?

 

Herbert correctly announced in the post race interview that Max has clinched the championship while many were confused about the shortened race points rules and thought Max hadn't scored full points.

[Ruusperi]

Would be funny if Max finishes P6 but is under investigation after the sprint race, so Liberty can't even have official ceremony lest they make fool of themselves if Max gets a penalty.

Or that he finishes P1, receives the celebration but is then disqualified over illegal floor

[RacingSmoke]

That's another record coming Max's way. First champion crowned in a F1 sprint race. Probably the weakest/meaningless of all his records so far.

[Gravelngrass]

I think the ones truly bothered by this are fans of other drivers…

[cjm321190]

Max should finish the sprint in 9th and declare he thought winning the WDC in a Sprint was not proper F1 so waited for the main race. Would be funny

[PayasYouRace]

That's another record coming Max's way. First champion crowned in a F1 sprint race. Probably the weakest/meaningless of all his records so far.

Everyone seems to be forgetting that the champion is only crowned at the prize giving ceremony at he end of the season.

[SenorSjon]

Would be funny if Max finishes P6 but is under investigation after the sprint race, so Liberty can't even have official ceremony lest they make fool of themselves if Max gets a penalty.

Or that he finishes P1, receives the celebration but is then disqualified over illegal floor

 

Or like last year, Perez getting a post race penalty, getting him demoted and thus making Max WDC.

Edited by SenorSjon, 27 September 2023 - 07:49.

[eab]

Or like last year, Perez getting a post race penalty, getting him demoted and thus making Max WDC.

You mean Charles instead getting the penalty and consequently being eliminated.

[Beri]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that the champion is only crowned at the prize giving ceremony at he end of the season.

 

Crowned yes. But being written in the annals as Champion per said race.

[ANF]

I want to see championships being decided in a real race – not in an additional mini-race or in qualifying. That's why you shouldn't award points before the start of the real race.

Four weeks ago, Gabriel Bortoleto became F3 champion because he was on provisional pole when a barrier was damaged in qualifying and the session couldn't be resumed because of the tight schedule.

https://forums.autos...son/?p=10365920

https://feederseries...toric-f3-title/

I still have fond memories of exciting championship-deciding races like Brazil 2012, Abu Dhabi 2010, Brazil 2009 and 2008... I may remember Bortoleto at Monza in 2023 as well – for all the wrong reasons.

[PayasYouRace]

I still have fond memories of exciting championship-deciding races like Brazil 2012, Abu Dhabi 2010, Brazil 2009 and 2008... I may remember Bortoleto at Monza in 2023 as well – for all the wrong reasons.

We remember those because they were FINAL race deciders, or near enough that there was actual competitive jeopardy for the contenders (Prost & Senna too).

However, Max securing the title mathematically in Qatar on Sunday won’t be any more memorable than if he does it on Saturday.. There will be no jeopardy because he’s still putting himself so far out of reach that it’s a foregone conclusion.

In the rare circumstance that a final event qualifying decides the championship, is that worse than having it decided in the penultimate race? It’s still one race to go when the champion is already known.

[Risil]

Have we ever had a championship decided in Indycar when a driver gets in the car and turns his first lap in Friday practice, thus achieving the coveted five or so points for showing up?

[Risil]

In the rare circumstance that a final event qualifying decides the championship, is that worse than having it decided in the penultimate race? It’s still one race to go when the champion is already known.

Yeah, I think so. Schumacher winning the title after outracing Hakkinen in the drizzle at Suzuka in 2000 would've been better than winning the title because for instance he scored pole at Malaysia the next time out.

 

The reason being that although the championship is what everyone's trying to win, it has a virtual or spreadsheet existence whereas a race is a real thing you can watch and experience. Ideally the climax of the championship and the race should amplify each other rather than interfere.

[PayasYouRace]

Have we ever had a championship decided in Indycar when a driver gets in the car and turns his first lap in Friday practice, thus achieving the coveted five or so points for showing up?

I feel like one of Scott Dixon’s early ones was a case of that.

[PayasYouRace]

Yeah, I think so. Schumacher winning the title after outracing Hakkinen in the drizzle at Suzuka in 2000 would've been better than winning the title because for instance he scored pole at Malaysia the next time out.

The reason being that although the championship is what everyone's trying to win, it has a virtual or spreadsheet existence whereas a race is a real thing you can watch and experience. Ideally the climax of the championship and the race should amplify each other rather than interfere.

I get where you’re coming from, but what if that Malaysian qualifying had been an epic session with both drivers trading fastest times until the chequered flag? Surely that could have been just as epic, and that’s certainly something you can watch and experience.

[Risil]

That might've been interesting, just like it was interesting at Brazil in 2008 when Felipe Massa dominated the race while Hamilton slid around in the upper midfield before securing the necessary points on the last lap. It meant you had to follow three conflicting stories at once (the story of the championship and the disconnected stories of Hamilton and Massa's races) but they combined in a way that was exciting and poignant. (Until Massa challenged the results 15 years later of course.) That's my slightly laborious attempt to explain the phenomenology of it anyway.

 

But, how many qualifying sessions are really like that? Qualifying isn't the main event, pole traditionally isn't a goal in itself, and setting a single fast lap in a short session is much more likely to be influenced by extraneous factors. What if Hakkinen had been impeded on his last lap by someone? What if it had rained halfway through the session? Etc.

[GrumpyYoungMan]

It’s like they are actually trolling the bloke. This is for me why we shouldn’t award points on a Saturday.

Dudes gonna be crowned champ with no one watching. Seems harsh given the quality of the season he’s just produced.

Really? I would say its more the Red Bull team and car? There is no I in team.

[SenorSjon]

You mean Charles instead getting the penalty and consequently being eliminated.

 

Yes, but Perez is in Charles place this year, making the situations comparable. And with the way Perez is racking up penalties the last couple of races, not beyond imagination.

[Claudius]

It’s probably been said before but Max is now 70 points (old 10-6-4-3-2-1 format) ahead of the next driver. It’s insane!!

He could skip all the other races and still win. Perez won’t win all the remaining races anyway.

[eab]

Yes, but Perez is in Charles place this year, making the situations comparable. And with the way Perez is racking up penalties the last couple of races, not beyond imagination.

Yeah, he isn't having the best of seasons.

 

It’s probably been said before but Max is now 70 points (old 10-6-4-3-2-1 format) ahead of the next driver. It’s insane!!

He could skip all the other races and still win. Perez won’t win all the remaining races anyway.

Gap 'would've' been 82 points by now. Title would've been clinched in Singapore already (after the main race   ).

Even with the 25-18 system the title race would've been over in Japan, had there not been these Sprints with all their points.

[PayasYouRace]

That might've been interesting, just like it was interesting at Brazil in 2008 when Felipe Massa dominated the race while Hamilton slid around in the upper midfield before securing the necessary points on the last lap. It meant you had to follow three conflicting stories at once (the story of the championship and the disconnected stories of Hamilton and Massa's races) but they combined in a way that was exciting and poignant. (Until Massa challenged the results 15 years later of course.) That's my slightly laborious attempt to explain the phenomenology of it anyway.

But, how many qualifying sessions are really like that? Qualifying isn't the main event, pole traditionally isn't a goal in itself, and setting a single fast lap in a short session is much more likely to be influenced by extraneous factors. What if Hakkinen had been impeded on his last lap by someone? What if it had rained halfway through the session? Etc.

It’s all a lot of what ifs. We can probably think of various scenarios with different levels of excitement. But the overriding issue is that we’re still talking about the problem of a season not being close enough to be decided at the end.

[Risil]

Yeah it's a moot point this year, the most exciting it could really have been would be a 2002 French GP situation where Max had to fight hard for the win.

[SophieB]

Herbert correctly announced in the post race interview that Max has clinched the championship while many were confused about the shortened race points rules and thought Max hadn't scored full points.

To add without taking anything away from this, as someone on Twitter once correctly observed, he also announced this all to Max in a tone you might more commonly associate with informing someone that sadly, their dog has just been run over.

[Clatter]

It’s all a lot of what ifs. We can probably think of various scenarios with different levels of excitement. But the overriding issue is that we’re still talking about the problem of a season not being close enough to be decided at the end.

 

But it's not the first time it's happened, and it's not even a record for the earliest win. I'd say the more races they add, the less likely it is to be a close finish.

[Boxerevo]

Can look a bit soon, but i want to give props for Max on his fifth championship.

[SenorSjon]

It’s probably been said before but Max is now 70 points (old 10-6-4-3-2-1 format) ahead of the next driver. It’s insane!!

He could skip all the other races and still win. Perez won’t win all the remaining races anyway.

 

Even if he wins all, he won't get all the fastest laps he also needs. He only had 2 this year.

 

To add without taking anything away from this, as someone on Twitter once correctly observed, he also announced this all to Max in a tone you might more commonly associate with informing someone that sadly, their dog has just been run over.

 

Herbert has been critical of Max before and 2021 was still fresh.

[Grippy]

Really? I would say its more the Red Bull team and car? There is no I in team.

There is a 'me' though....

[PayasYouRace]

To add without taking anything away from this, as someone on Twitter once correctly observed, he also announced this all to Max in a tone you might more commonly associate with informing someone that sadly, their dog has just been run over.

Isn’t that just how Johnny always sounds?

[Spillage]

Similar to the other US champ, Mario - also clinched it at Monza with his teammate and rival's fatal crash.

This is very morbid but strictly speaking Ronnie didn't die until Monday, so Andretti would be another example of a driver "officially" winning the title outside of a race day. Although Ronnie's leg inuries would have prevented him competing in the final two rounds even if he had pulled through.

 

Anyway, for me this is why sprint races suck. Points should be for Grands Prix only. Get rid of them.

[goldenboy]

Doesn't worry me. I much prefer Sprint weekends anyway.

[Planetdune]

I want to see championships being decided in a real race – not in an additional mini-race or in qualifying. That's why you shouldn't award points before the start of the real race.

Problem with this statement.. the championship was decided many races ago. What will happen at the sprint is just irrelevant math.

[chhatra]

Championship is a formality for Max. Anyone with the slightest interest in the sport knows that. Therefore it really doesn’t matter.

If it was a closely fought battle then it would possibly but for now all we can hope for an exciting race.

[7MGTEsup]

Max could not turn up at the last 6 races and still win as there is no way Sergio is going to win 6 races, 3 sprints and get 4 fastest laps.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 28 September 2023 - 14:43.

[ANF]

Problem with this statement.. the championship was decided many races ago. What will happen at the sprint is just irrelevant math.

But what about next season, and the one after that? I'm talking about racing in general.

[sketchy2001]

Championship is a formality for Max. Anyone with the slightest interest in the sport knows that. Therefore it really doesn’t matter.

If it was a closely fought battle then it would possibly but for now all we can hope for an exciting race.

 

Totally agree that 'when' doesn't really matter this season.

 

Max could quit today and he would still be WDC so the mathematically exact point it happens seems pretty irrelevant (for me at least).

...and I would have the same opinion irrespective of who the champion elect was.