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1974 Tourist Trophy 500cc Sidecar Race


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#1 Michael Ferner

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Posted 23 October 2023 - 22:02

I have a question, which I cannot solve with the sources I have access to. Maybe somebody with period magazines, or with a very looong memory can help? :cat:

 

 

The 500cc sidecar TT race in 1974 was won by German veteran Heinz Luthringshauser in 1:13'36.2", from Britons George O'Dell (1:18'46.4"), Mac Hobson (1:19'35.0"), Dick Hawes (1:22'30.8") and Trevor Ireson, pushing in at 1:22'37.2" - that's how the results were reported in all the papers the next day, and in (almost) every book or website that deals with the results of that race, including some very fine work like Volker Rauch's Motorrad Weltmeisterschaft annual, Peter Carrick's Encyclopedia of Motor-Cycle Sport, Maurice Büla's Continental Circus or Vincent Glon's Racing Memory website. But, there are a few exceptions, like the Nick Harris History of the IoM TT Races or the extensive data bases at www.iomtt.com and www.iomttraces.com, who often don't agree on much between them, but in this case all three have Hawes finishing third, and Hobson back in fourth with a time of 1:22'35.0" - BUT - incidentally, getting the average speeds of the two mixed up - i.e. Hawes is listed with 85.33 mph, corresponding to Hobson's original race time of 1:19'35.0", while Hobson is now listed with 82.30 mph, which corresponds to Hawes's (unchanged) time of 1:22'30.8"!!

 

So, what happened? Obviously, not a timing error as that would not have taken so long to resolve for the papers to miss out on it, especially when it involved three outfits finishing within little more than six seconds, and two of them just beating the time of a crew pushing in (admittedly, Ireson had started behind Hawes and Hobson to the tune of 80 and 20 seconds, respectively, so he wasn't so much 'beaten to the line', but factually failed to finish in time - still, with a close finish like that, it can't have taken hours to put a possible mistake of that magnitude right). On a very few occasions, competitors were credited with a time bonus when stopped by the travelling marshal for safety reasons, but that can't have applied here unless there was a bonus that was later rescinded (an even rarer occurrence, and one which should have attracted comment at the time, methinks). So, a later penalty? these things usually don't get reported in newspapers, and the 'foreign press' may have not taken note since by then, the TT was no longer relevant in World Championship matters - Hobson did not compete in any other WC races, while Hawes never finished higher than 12th in the other races). Maybe, if there was a penalty, it was surely reported in one of the 'comics', can somebody remember something like that?

 

Or, is it possible that the reputable Harris made a simple mistake, and the two data bases (which are hardly beacons of accuracy, for what it's worth) just followed along?



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#2 ensign14

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Posted 23 October 2023 - 23:13

Contemporary news sources - Belfast News-Letter, Western Daily Mail - for 5 June 1974 have Hobson third.  Backed up by Hobson's local rag, the Newcastle Journal, which mentions his third place in passing in an article about the death of David Nixon.

 

1974-Io-M-TT.png

 

(Belfast News-Letter)



#3 tonyed

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Posted 24 October 2023 - 03:43

1 0 Heinz Luthringshauser & Hermann Hahn BMW 1.13.36.2  92.27  2 0 George O'Dell & Bill Boldison Konig 1.18.46.4  86.21  3 0 Dick Hawes & Eddie Kiff Weslake 1.22.30.8  85.33  4 0 Mac Hobson & J Armstrong Yamaha 1.22.35.0  82.3  5 0 Trevor Ireson & G C Hunt Konig 1.22.37.2  82.2 

TT database



#4 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 October 2023 - 09:52

Thanks for illustrating what I was trying to point out in my OP: period sources have Hobson finishing third, and the TT data bases list Hawes ahead of Hobson, with incorrect race average speeds. Now, can anyone recall a reason that would legitimate the swap?



#5 tonyed

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Posted 24 October 2023 - 12:33

Come on Michael, I think you need to get out more. :drunk: 

After eons, does it matter?

We look at great art from the middle ages and cannot be certain where or when the artist was born. 

Probably the 'papers' report was written from the 'bar' as many were and the telephoned to the 'desk' to someone who couldn't  care less. :rolleyes:



#6 Michael Ferner

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Posted 24 October 2023 - 12:53

After eons, does it matter?


I think it does! And I don't agree with your assessment about journalistic work ethos, not in the world in which I live. I am far more wary of internet 'know-it-all' data bases built by anonymous geeks, and am prepared to completely dismiss their info, but willing to give them a 'fair trial', so to speak. For me, it's Hobson in third until proven otherwise. :)



#7 ensign14

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Posted 24 October 2023 - 13:19

We look at great art from the middle ages and cannot be certain where or when the artist was born.

Sounds like Hobson's choice.



#8 ChiliFan

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Posted 25 October 2023 - 11:30

Since this is a history forum and I agree with Michael that the facts do matter, here are the results as published in the TT Special newspaper. I could find no reference to any amendments in the following issue either. Up to you if you want to believe these considering the multiple typos in the names!

 

20231025-110100.jpg

 

20231025-110136.jpg



#9 tonyed

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Posted 25 October 2023 - 14:15

The TT74 race program on chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://daveriley.we...an_tt_races.pdf has at the end of lap 2 Trevor Ireson 3rd, George O'Dell 4th with Mac Hobson 4th and Dick Hawes 5th.

Frustratingly no entry for 3rd and 4th on the 3rd and final lap, only 1st and 2nd.



#10 Michael Ferner

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Posted 25 October 2023 - 14:52

Ahh, thank you FrankieFan! The good old TT Special, didn't know it was still published, then. I got a LOT of excellent info from the earlier issues at www.imuseum.im/, the odd typo notwithstanding. Considering they had their issues on sale within an hour or so of the finish, they did remarkably well on that account, much better than most other newspapers!

 

So, if there's nothing in TTS until the end of TT week, it has to have been the ACU altering the results, but on what basis? I doubt they had the power to penalize Hobson without a formal protest enterd in the island already. I'm more and more inclined to think that Harris and the TT data bases are simply in error here.

 

 

Also, for those with an unshakeable belief in internet data bases (:wave: @tonyed), consider this entry for David Nixon, who (as we have learned in post #2 by ensign) died during the Production Bike race on the morning before the Sidecar event. According to David Nixon Isle of Man TT Race Results - iomtt.com: The World's #1 TT Website, he retired from the Senior TT two years after his death!  :drunk: "After eons, does it matter?"



#11 tonyed

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 04:31

Well Michael, they got my results right, how about yours?

Plus the fact I don't have an 'unshakeable belief in internet data bases, I suspect anymore than you do. 

It's not surprising the TT Special had a few typos as it was rushed out on the day of the races by Fred Hanks and co, using old school methods, even on the days Fred was racing. A not inconsiderable achievement.

Seeing as it is a world championship event and the places in dispute include 3rd there must be official results on record somewhere.

There again as the ACU were the race organisers, they've probably been lost, but it may well be useful to contact them for official records. 

I have a copy of Motorcycle News WE 08/06/1974 coming. The ebay listing photos were fairly comprehensive including a two page report of the 750 sidecar race. This took place on Monday 3rd June carried over from Saturday 2nd June due to inclement weather, so as the 500cc world championship race took place on Tuesday 4th June the report of the race should be in this issue.

The TT race reports were fairly comprehensive back then, not as we see today. When it arrives I'll see what their results say and any report of a last lap position swap between Hobson and Hawes.

We know from the marked up program that I previously put a link to that Hobson was 5th end of lap 2 with Hawes 6th. 

Ireson who was 3rd at the end of lap 2 dropped back eventually to 5th with O'Dell who was 4th failing to finish. 

We can see if this sheds any light of fact.


Edited by tonyed, 26 October 2023 - 07:34.


#12 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 07:47

Well Michael, they got my results right, how about yours?



Touché! :lol:

 

Thanks for your continuing efforts to chase the truth! :up:

 

 

Re TT Special, so Fred Hanks took over from Geoff Davison? How long did it exist? As said, I only know the paper from the copies at imuseum.im which go up to 1961 only, but that was one GREAT source for research!! Barely believable at times how they did it! :up: :up:



#13 tonyed

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 12:05

I think Freds passenger wrote it during the race.

It was still going when I rode my last MGP in 1982. :up:  



#14 tonyed

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 14:30

Most of the TT special I think was pre-pared with the weeks reports. The race reports were on the four sides of the outside pages so it was, report, print, wrap.

For its' era very impressive to be on the stands only a couple of hours after racing finished for the day.

As said, all 'old skool' no digital format, no I-phones, manual typeset. Todays journos would wilt.  :wave:  :wave:



#15 ChiliFan

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 14:33

I think it stopped in the mid-80s, a year or two after they started printing the official results books. The Manx National Library has most, if not all, of them on microfilm but the later years just aren't available online.



#16 Michael Ferner

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 15:53

I think Freds passenger wrote it during the race.

 

 

:lol:

 

So, that's why he kept changing them on an almost yearly basis! They simply had enough of doing double duty :lol:



#17 brands77

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Posted 26 October 2023 - 20:43

Heinz Luthringshauser, George O'Dell and Mac Hobson are sadly no longer with us, but I wonder if Dick Hawes, Hermann Hahn, Bill Boldison, Kiff, Armstrong or any of the other finishers are still around and if anyone on the forum is in contact with them. They surely would know the full story.



#18 tonyed

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Posted 27 October 2023 - 07:55

Dick Hawes died in December 2019



#19 tonyed

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Posted 28 October 2023 - 16:26

So the MCN arrives today.

Total disappointment, sadly no 500cc race report, just the 750. Run prior to the 500s on Monday I believe.

Although the paper has a date of WE 07/06/74 I seem to remember it on the stands on Wednesday so as the 500cc race was run Tuesday afternoon. No report.

I will say, though the race, practice, Paddock Gossip, technical reports are much better than the crap we seen today.   



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#20 tonyed

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Posted 29 October 2023 - 05:47

I have found the next weeks issue. 15/06/1974 that must contain the 500cc report.

The cover does say 6 race  reports



#21 Michael Ferner

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Posted 29 October 2023 - 08:54

You Da Man, Tony! :up:



#22 tonyed

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Posted 29 October 2023 - 12:56

We'll see.

The paper is not MCN, Motor Cycle News but Motorcycle. 

I think I'd probably stopped buying these by then as every penny I had, and much more, thanks Mum and Dad, was being ploughed into my racing.  :wave: goodbye money  :kiss:



#23 tonyed

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Posted 01 November 2023 - 13:04

Motorcycle has arrived.

The juries verdict is:

In 25th place - The Oates bros

In 24th  place - come, come get on with it

 

OK, OK,

4th place Dick Hawes and Eddie Kiff at 1hr 22m 30.8s 82.30 mph

3rd place Malcolm Hobson and J Armstrong at 1hr 19m 35s 85.33 mph

 

We declare the TT special and Motorcycle the winners with the TT 'fact' zone -bollocks  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:



#24 ensign14

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Posted 01 November 2023 - 14:55

Except now you've got to get the next ten issues to check there were no post-race penalties.  K?



#25 tonyed

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Posted 01 November 2023 - 16:33

Ha, ha. 

However I did notice that the next issue was to feature the Norton Cosworth, apparently going to be the fastest yet.  :clap:



#26 Michael Ferner

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Posted 03 November 2023 - 16:13

Splendid!  :clap:

 

Well done, and many thanks Tony!!