138 replies to this topic

[ARTGP]

Would Michael Schumacher have made the F2007 and the F2008 cars from Ferrari look dominant? 

Edited by ARTGP, 24 October 2023 - 03:16.

[Dolph]

Yes.

Very.

[JvsKVB77]

Would Michael Schumacher have made the F2007 and the F2008 cars from Ferrari look dominant? 

Not so like Williams 93 or  Mercedes 2014. But i think yes, they was 0.3-0.4 faster, than MP4-22/23. 

[ARTGP]

I agree and it's interesting to me because these two seasons are remembered as entertaining and competitive seasons solely because the wrong drivers were in the Ferrari. 

 

Rai/Massa were not bad drivers but for one reason or another it just didn't hit. An extra tenth or two here and there combined with machine like consistency and suddenly you end up with some very 1-sided and uncompetitive seasons won by Michael. Do you think we were spared from that or did we deserve to see it? 

Edited by ARTGP, 24 October 2023 - 03:40.

[vlado]

Dunno about being dominant but he would've certainly won both years. 

[PayasYouRace]

I don’t think it’s a given that things would have been that different to 2006.

[BertoC]

He would have won both years I think. The Ferrari was faster, but the superior Mclaren drivers made the difference.

[Anuity]

He probably would have won both years. But he he also seemed to get a bit rusty especially in the beginning of 2006. He seemed to regain his form in the second half of the season though.

 

but I don’t think it would have been dominant.  Besides Raikkonen did quite well in 2007, if anything he had about three 3 races where he didn’t look very convincing, similar to Michael in 2006.

its in 2008 where things went wrong for him. 

[PayasYouRace]

BTW is there anything actually to discuss here or is it just Michael Schumacher fan wank?

[JimmyClark]

Given how many mistakes everyone else made in those years, yes I think he would have done. It's a shame LDM eased him out, as some of his stats would have been incredible, and he probably wouldn't then have gone to Merc in 2010-2013 (which have muddied the statistical waters somewhat).

[P123]

Have we had this topic before?  Some fantasy land to dream of Schumacher's 'what if' stats?

 

I'm sure things would have gone differently elsewhere. 

[Risil]

We'd have had two more years of increasingly fractious sniping between Michael Schumacher and Luca di Montezemolo, and presumably Lewis Hamilton driving a Spyker. I'm on board with this alternative history.

[Lennat]

Yes. I can't see how not.

[PayasYouRace]

We'd have had two more years of increasingly fractious sniping between Michael Schumacher and Luca di Montezemolo, and presumably Lewis Hamilton driving a Spyker. I'm on board with this alternative history.

The question is, does Lewis lead the European Grand Prix?

[Risil]

And who gets dug out by the crane?

[Astandahl]

The F 2008 is the last real Ferrari F1 car.

 

 

Incredible car, unfortunately driven by Massa.

Edited by Astandahl, 24 October 2023 - 09:32.

[Beri]

And who gets dug out by the crane?

 

More important; who will drive away with the tank hose at Singapore?

[PayasYouRace]

The F 2008 is the last real Ferrari F1 car.

Sorry what happened in 2008 that I missed that made the 2009 and all subsequent cars fake?

[Beri]

So it is not the Pink Mercedes of yesteryear, but the Red Red Bull from nowadays?

[PayasYouRace]

More important; who will drive away with the tank hose at Singapore?

All things being equal, Kimi, who replaces Felipe instead of Michael.

[Beri]

It is a very interesting alternative history. Schumacher staying on and Massa with him.

Raikkonen being stuck at McLaren with Alonso next to him. And with no second Mercedes team on the grid in 2007, and with the 2006 GP2 title bagged so leaving him out of that championship for the 2007 campaign, Hamilton his place very well could have been at Williams. Who werent a direct competitor to McLaren and didnt run a Ferrari engine.

[Astandahl]

Sorry what happened in 2008 that I missed that made the 2009 and all subsequent cars fake?

Ferrari started making garbage cars. In fact no WCC and no WDC in 16 years.

Edited by Astandahl, 24 October 2023 - 09:56.

[PayasYouRace]

Ferrari started making garbage cars. In fact no WCC and no WDC in 16 years.

Maybe it’s a product of when I started watching F1, but if that’s the standard, those are the real Ferraris. The ones that are always about 3rd or 4th overall, occasionally getting a win, but usually let down by mismanagement. That’s the REAL Ferrari, not the early 2000s dream team. That was just Benetton in red.

[DW46]

It is a very interesting alternative history. Schumacher staying on and Massa with him.
Raikkonen being stuck at McLaren with Alonso next to him. And with no second Mercedes team on the grid in 2007, and with the 2006 GP2 title bagged so leaving him out of that championship for the 2007 campaign, Hamilton his place very well could have been at Williams. Who werent a direct competitor to McLaren and didnt run a Ferrari engine.

I’m sure Lewis and Nico would have worked well together ;)

[JeanAlesi27]

Ferrari started making garbage cars. In fact no WCC and no WDC in 16 years.

 

Started?  They didn't win a championship between 1979 and 2000.....

[DW46]

Started? They didn't win a championship between 1979 and 2000.....

They won the 82 and 83 constructors titles in that time.

[Aaaarrgghh]

Maybe it’s a product of when I started watching F1, but if that’s the standard, those are the real Ferraris. The ones that are always about 3rd or 4th overall, occasionally getting a win, but usually let down by mismanagement. That’s the REAL Ferrari, not the early 2000s dream team. That was just Benetton in red.

Ferrari are, and always have been, the proof against the argument that bigger budgets yield better results. 16 years since the last WDC... it's almost as long as the gap between 1979 and 2000. I have a hard time believing that either of Leclerc or Sainz is going to end that drought any time soon.

 

As for the question stated by the OP: yes, Schumacher most definitely would have won the championship in 2007 and 2008.

[Chick0]

Would Michael Schumacher have made the F2007 and the F2008 cars from Ferrari look dominant? 

 

He would have had a good chance of winning both years...

[skinnyman]

Kimi's and Felipe's later relatively weak form makes you retrospectively judge these cars somewhat wrongly.

 

Those cars were very fast, no doubt, but far from dominant, McLaren was more superior on mechanical grip than Ferrari was in fast corners.

Also low downforce stuff was on McLaren's side, in 2007 by far.

Reliability also McLaren by far.

 

2007 Kimi was no weaker on pace than anyone on grid, 2008 Felipe the same, those low fuel sprint stints and no need to manage tires like today worked for them, especially for Felipe (and it was pre-injury version of him).

Lewis was rookie in 2007 and made some errors in 2008 (Felipe did too, yes), Alonso's 2007 was somewhat off color, first year on Bridgestone and in a hostile team as the season went on.

 

Conclusion, MP4/22 was overall (points to be scored by pace and reliability) absolutely car to have in 2007, those 17 points advantage going into last two races more than proves it.

MP4/23 was also overall no weaker than F2008.

[Astandahl]

Kimi's and Felipe's later relatively weak form makes you retrospectively judge these cars somewhat wrongly.

 

Those cars were very fast, no doubt, but far from dominant, McLaren was more superior on mechanical grip than Ferrari was in fast corners.

Also low downforce stuff was on McLaren's side, in 2007 by far.

Reliability also McLaren by far.

 

2007 Kimi was no weaker on pace than anyone on grid, 2008 Felipe the same, those low fuel sprint stints and no need to manage tires like today worked for them, especially for Felipe (and it was pre-injury version of him).

Lewis was rookie in 2007 and made some errors in 2008 (Felipe did too, yes), Alonso's 2007 was somewhat off color, first year on Bridgestone and in a hostile team as the season went on.

 

Conclusion, MP4/22 was overall (points to be scored by pace and reliability) absolutely car to have in 2007, those 17 points advantage going into last two races more than proves it.

MP4/23 was also overall no weaker than F2008.

Schumacher was over 0.5% quicker than Massa in qualifying (using Q2 lap times when all cars were on quali trim fuel) in 2006. Massa and Kimi difference was around 0.05% ...

Edited by Astandahl, 24 October 2023 - 11:28.

[skinnyman]

2006 was Felipe's first Ferrari season, in 2007 he had great pace in many races, 2008 car with more planted rear-end played into his skills even more (Smedley's words).

[Astandahl]

2006 was Felipe's first Ferrari season, in 2007 he had great pace in many races, 2008 car with more planted rear-end played into his skills even more (Smedley's words).

True, but I have never seen a driver improve by this much over a season, especially in quali trim.

 

It's highly unlikely that Massa gained almost 0.5% performance compared to the previous year.

Edited by Astandahl, 24 October 2023 - 11:52.

[JRodrigues]

True, but I have never seen a driver improve by this much over a season, especially in quali trim.

 

It's highly unlikely that Massa gained almost 0.5% performance compared to the previous year.

 

low fuel vs high fuel. Massa always had less fuel in the car - remember those were the days you had to qualify with the same amount of fuel you'd start the race and Massa always stopped earlier than Kimi.

Edited by JRodrigues, 24 October 2023 - 12:50.

[Vesuvius]

Had Michael stayed 2007/2008 at Ferrari, he very likely would have won but not so dominantly.Likewise had Kimi stayed at McLaren 2007/2008 it would have been interesting between Michael vs Kimi.

[Beri]

McLaren Kimi always did strike me as a hungry and insanely fast driver.

Ferrari Kimi (both era's) always did strike me as a lazy and uninspired driver.

 

So that would have been very interesting to see.

[F1Frog]

Didn’t Raikkonen sign for Ferrari early in 2006? And Schumacher chose to retire rather than be his teammate? So it would be Raikkonen and Schumacher of Ferrari vs Alonso and Hamilton of McLaren. With hindsight, Schumacher would have dispatched Raikkonen far more easily than I think even he thought.

[RacingSmoke]

Didn’t Raikkonen sign for Ferrari early in 2006? And Schumacher chose to retire rather than be his teammate? So it would be Raikkonen and Schumacher of Ferrari vs Alonso and Hamilton of McLaren. With hindsight, Schumacher would have dispatched Raikkonen far more easily than I think even he thought.

 

That was my understanding as well. Ferrari didn't force him out as such, they just wanted it to be him and Raikkonen. Schumacher opted against this and then retired.

[Vesuvius]

Didn’t Raikkonen sign for Ferrari early in 2006? And Schumacher chose to retire rather than be his teammate? So it would be Raikkonen and Schumacher of Ferrari vs Alonso and Hamilton of McLaren. With hindsight, Schumacher would have dispatched Raikkonen far more easily than I think even he thought.

Kimi signed early 2005 already.

Schumacher choosed to retire so that Felipe could continue. We don't know what would have happened between Kimi and Schumi and how easily Schumi would have beaten him.

[Timothy]

Kimi signed early 2005 already.

Schumacher choosed to retire so that Felipe could continue. We don't know what would have happened between Kimi and Schumi and how easily Schumi would have beaten him.

 

WE KNOW! He would've destroyed him in similar fashion Alonso did. Schumacher would be nine time champion had he not chicken out.

[Dolph]

BTW is there anything actually to discuss here or is it just Michael Schumacher fan wank?

 

 

I'm a Michael Schumacher fan and I find you post both rude and disgusting. 

 

Very peculiar, as you seem to be the only one up to that point saying its not a given, hinting that there actually is smth to discuss, but instead of contributing anything meaningful, you come up with that one.

[Dolph]

They won the 82 and 83 constructors titles in that time.

 

...and 1999

[Vesuvius]

WE KNOW! He would've destroyed him in similar fashion Alonso did. Schumacher would be nine time champion had he not chicken out.

Not in similar way, 2007 Kimi was way better than 2014 one, but yes he would have been ahead.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Hmm...it would have been interesting to see, maybe Alonso would have been less preoccupied with Lewis if Schumacher was still challenging him for wins. Schumacher would have been in good stead to at least win another World Championship, but who knows.

[JeanAlesi27]

WE KNOW! He would've destroyed him in similar fashion Alonso did. Schumacher would be nine time champion had he not chicken out.

 

 

I doubt he would have destroyed Kimi...  In 2007 Kimi was good enough to beat both Alonso and Hamilton while they were kicking each other...  

The Kimi of 2007 was not the one who Alonso raced against in 2014 in the same team.

Edited by JeanAlesi27, 24 October 2023 - 20:57.

[PayasYouRace]

I'm a Michael Schumacher fan and I find you post both rude and disgusting. 

 

Very peculiar, as you seem to be the only one up to that point saying its not a given, hinting that there actually is smth to discuss, but instead of contributing anything meaningful, you come up with that one.

I think we’ve had some fun talk since that post.

[GunnarN7]

I'm not sure. Massa made a lot of progress in 2006, by the end he was stealing poles from Michael and would've finished ahead in most of those final races if not for team orders. Then, it's not a given that Michael would've done that much better than Massa in either 2007 or 2008. 2008 in particular was messy with a lot of mistakes and an experienced driver could've made a big difference, especially with Kimi struggling he could've had the whole team focused around him. But in pure pace I don't think he would've made those cars look quicker.

[Astandahl]

I'm not sure. Massa made a lot of progress in 2006, by the end he was stealing poles from Michael and would 've finished ahead in most of those final races if not for team orders. Then, it's not a given that Michael would've done that much better than Massa in either 2007 or 2008. 2008 in particular was messy with a lot of mistakes and an experienced driver could've made a big difference, especially with Kimi struggling he could've had the whole team focused around him. But in pure pace I don't think he would've made those cars look quicker.

Because of different fuel loads. Also Michael was quicker in all tracks including Turkey (unfortunately it wasn't a great weekend because the speed was great but he made too many mistakes) which is by far Massa best track ever (even demolished Alonso there in 2010).

 

Again, the difference in quali pace between MSC and Massa in 2006 was bigger than the biggest difference between Alo and Massa from 2010 and 2013.

 

People created the narrative that Michael was winning only because he had the best car, and that Kimi and others would beat him with the same equipment. I remember the narratives... In the refuelling era which rewarded being able to deliver max performance over a specific amount of laps with minimum tyre management, there is no one as good as Schumacher. I suggest rewatching Monaco 2004 which, despite the unfortunate ending, is a prime example of this.

 

Edited by Astandahl, 24 October 2023 - 22:18.

[GunnarN7]

Because of different fuel loads. Also Michael was quicker in all tracks including Turkey (unfortunately it wasn't a great weekend because the speed was great but he made too many mistakes) which is by far Massa best track ever (even demolished Alonso there in 2010).

 

Again, the difference in quali pace between MSC and Massa in 2006 was bigger than the biggest difference between Alo and Massa from 2010 and 2013.

 

People created the narrative that Michael was winning only because he had the best car, and that Kimi and others would beat him with the same equipment. I remember the narratives... In the refuelling era which rewarded being able to deliver max performance over a specific amount of laps with minimum tyre management, there is no one as good as Schumacher. I suggest rewatching Monaco 2004 which, despite the unfortunate ending, is a prime example of this.

 

Even with different fuel loads, it was a big difference when compared to the beginning of the season. Massa himself said he started to feel much more competitive after Turkey, which is why you can't look at the whole year and say the average difference is representative. As for the Alonso comparison: Massa accepted his no. 2 status right off the bat with Michael and didn't have any personal goals, whereas Alonso had to earn it with Massa infamously not being happy about it.

 

Also, why are you only mentioning Turkey 2010 to say that Massa was strong there? They also raced there in 2011 and Massa finished a minute behind Alonso. Overall I think it's clear that Alonso was the one doing the demolishing in that track, if anything.

Edited by GunnarN7, 24 October 2023 - 22:26.

[Frankbullitt]

He would have waltzed both years. Easy.

[ARTGP]

I asked because 2007 and 2008 are regarded as very competitive seasons. Both championships went down to the last race and are remembered fondly by some. Yet this is only because a better Ferrari driver retired. lol. Is it more important that the championship is interesting because Ferrari didn't put the best driver they could in the car, or were we robbed of 2 additional 1-sided schumacher years? 

 

F1 is 1-sided more often than not. 2007 and 2008 are a bit of an illusion. Yes they happened and there's no point dwelling on imaginary Schumacher titles, but it's still amusing to consider just how close were to some pretty unremarkable seasons other than Schumacher's driving. Some might argue we were spared it. Others might say we were robbed of it. 

Edited by ARTGP, 24 October 2023 - 23:20.