138 replies to this topic

[lamo]

Kimi was slower than Massa in 2007 first half but Massa made some errors so Kimi still scored well. Overall they had a similar pace in 2007. Massa made more errors and had slightly worse luck.

 

For some reason people forget Massa was a title contender in 2007. 110 Kimi 94 Massa. He was only 16 points behind Kimi, which would have been 12 points if they didn’t switch positions in the last race.

 

Thats with Massa having errors/bad luck in 7 of the 17 races.

[lamo]

Inferior car? It was a season of two halves sort of. If your putting forward the idea that Schumacher had an inferior car all season long then I'm baffled...

 

As for China 06', he did a great job on Saturday given the gap to the Michelin runners in the wet. But I always felt his Sunday drive was slightly overrated, helped by the situation of Renault changing Alonso's inters and then a long second stop he had. Alonso lost so much time with all of this drama but managed to end up just 3 seconds behind Schumacher, arguably in the slower car in the dry towards the end...

 

I'm not saying he couldn't possibly have won in 2007 or 2008, if everything aligned, some luck went his way etc. But there is no way he would have waltzed those two years and been dominant. Just no way. He would have had 2/3 rivals in back to back years of Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton. These are serious serious drivers, you can't disrespect them and what they've done by saying it would have been easy. We saw it wasn't with just one of them alone in 2006 anyway.

Doesn’t matter who the drivers are if they don’t have the car.. how did Alonso do against Schumahcer in 2004 and 2003? The Ferrari was a faster car. Mclaren’s only hope would be it was more reliable and maybe they could hang on in the title fight like Kimi did in 2003 by coming 2nd every week.

[lamo]

2007 was a season where it changed a lot which one was better car, McLaren or Ferrari. I don't think there were many races where you can say that worse car of them won. Nürburgring maybe, but it can be said that McLaren was better car in the wet that season IMO.

 

I see it's often forgotten that Kimi had two mechanical DNFs that year, while neither McLaren had one.  Both suffered some issues which robbed few points though, Alonso in France and Lewis in Brazil.

2023 would be a close season if Red Bull had two Perez’s… a better driver in a car changes everything.

 

Although not that extreme, Ferrari had two number twos those years. Both drivers crushed by Schumacher and Alonso when paired against them. Schumahcer was still 0.3-0.4 tenths quicker than Massa at the end of 2006. Massa was comfortably fast enough to win the title in 2006, he just mad too many errors and had the worst luck of the title contenders.

[lamo]

Does anyone have some stats about the gap between Massa and Schumacher in 2006 and the gap between Massa and Raikkonen in 2007? And ideally how it changed throughout the year as Kimi adapted (or didn't) to Ferrari and Bridgestone tyres.

Schumacher was 0.5% quicker than Massa. It was the largest pace disparity between all team mates on the 2006 grid. The next worst was Fisichella behind Alonso. Two world class drivers that crushed their team mates.

 

Raikkonen was 0.05% quicker than Masa in 2007 so “just” 0.45% of the Schumacher pace. Statistics probably aren’t that conclusive but Massa went from another Rubens to a WDC level driver. All Perez needs is Verstappen to retire for him to look good again…

[RacingFan10]

Some examples of races where Massa was faster?

 

Germany, Turkey, Brazil

This trend, of Massa catching up to Michael, would have continued into 2007 and 2008, with Massa getting better better, and Michael only getting older and going off his prime, no doubt about that.

And so a proof is MS comeback with Mercedes, he was only a shadow of his former self.

 

However, thinking more in-depth of the full scenario, we would have:

 

-Kimi doesn't join ferrari so he stays at McLaren.

-Alonso doesn't join McLaren so he stays at Renault.

Alonso not bringing 6 tenths to McLaren so then Ferrari was dominant again? 

 

Very hard to predict with this whole different scenario indeed.

Kimi vs Hamilton at McLaren, who would have won? Hamilton probably but thanks to the switch to Bridgestones, which would've made Kimi start from scratch and adapt, even if in the same team.
Most likely a battle Hamilton vs Schumacher for the championship, with Kimi and Massa there or thereabouts, kinda close.

Alonso somewhere right behind the top 4, the Renaults would drop (and did drop) in performance with Bridgestones.

 

In any case, as I said, a 38 years old declining Michael may have still won, but still not dominating, pretty sure, he would've needed to work very hard against the young guns.

Edited by RacingFan10, 28 October 2023 - 10:33.

[Primo]

If I remember correctly, the whole team was different from 2006. Todt, Byrne and Brawn was gone as well. Ferrari has still not recovered.

[JRodrigues]

Todt was still there in 2007, but left at the end of the year.

[Astandahl]

Germany, Turkey, Brazil

This trend, of Massa catching up to Michael, would have continued into 2007 and 2008, with Massa getting better better, and Michael only getting older and going off his prime, no doubt about that.

And so a proof is MS comeback with Mercedes, he was only a shadow of his former self.

 

However, thinking more in-depth of the full scenario, we would have:

 

-Kimi doesn't join ferrari so he stays at McLaren.

-Alonso doesn't join McLaren so he stays at Renault.

Alonso not bringing 6 tenths to McLaren so then Ferrari was dominant again? 

 

Very hard to predict with this whole different scenario indeed.

Kimi vs Hamilton at McLaren, who would have won? Hamilton probably but thanks to the switch to Bridgestones, which would've made Kimi start from scratch and adapt, even if in the same team.
Most likely a battle Hamilton vs Schumacher for the championship, with Kimi and Massa there or thereabouts, kinda close.

Alonso somewhere right behind the top 4, the Renaults would drop (and did drop) in performance with Bridgestones.

 

In any case, as I said, a 38 years old declining Michael may have still won, but still not dominating, pretty sure, he would've needed to work very hard against the young guns.

Wtf

[Risil]

Schumacher was 0.5% quicker than Massa. It was the largest pace disparity between all team mates on the 2006 grid. The next worst was Fisichella behind Alonso. Two world class drivers that crushed their team mates.

Raikkonen was 0.05% quicker than Masa in 2007 so “just” 0.45% of the Schumacher pace. Statistics probably aren’t that conclusive but Massa went from another Rubens to a WDC level driver. All Perez needs is Verstappen to retire for him to look good again…

That's interesting -- is that race or qualifying pace? And was Massa getting closer as the year went on or was the gap static? I ask because my memory of the "narrative" was that Massa was pretty poor at the beginning but by the end people were saying he'd found enough speed.

I know I'm asking a lot here!

[Benchulo]

Germany, Turkey, Brazil
This trend, of Massa catching up to Michael, would have continued into 2007 and 2008, with Massa getting better better, and Michael only getting older and going off his prime, no doubt about that.
And so a proof is MS comeback with Mercedes, he was only a shadow of his former self.

However, thinking more in-depth of the full scenario, we would have:

-Kimi doesn't join ferrari so he stays at McLaren.
-Alonso doesn't join McLaren so he stays at Renault.

McLaren approached Alonso even before Alonso won his first title. Irrespective of what Kimi or Schumacher did, Alonso would have raced for McLaren in 2007.

[Vesuvius]

McLaren approached Alonso even before Alonso won his first title. Irrespective of what Kimi or Schumacher did, Alonso would have raced for McLaren in 2007.

Yes and Kimi had already done deal with Ferrari summer of 2005, so he would have been at Ferrari and it was said on his book he thought he would partner Michael not Felipe.

[Bleu]

That's interesting -- is that race or qualifying pace? And was Massa getting closer as the year went on or was the gap static? I ask because my memory of the "narrative" was that Massa was pretty poor at the beginning but by the end people were saying he'd found enough speed.

I know I'm asking a lot here!

 

I counted something like it was 0,7-0,8% between races 1-10 and under 0,1% in races 11-18.

 

I left out Malaysia, Australia, Monaco, Hungary and Brazil as one driver was without time in the last session they competed or in Hungary's case Schumacher had time penalty which meant he was faster but with the penalty introduced slower than Massa.

[krea]

Germany, Turkey, Brazil

This trend, of Massa catching up to Michael, would have continued into 2007 and 2008, with Massa getting better better, and Michael only getting older and going off his prime, no doubt about that.

And so a proof is MS comeback with Mercedes, he was only a shadow of his former self.

 

However, thinking more in-depth of the full scenario, we would have:

 

-Kimi doesn't join ferrari so he stays at McLaren.

-Alonso doesn't join McLaren so he stays at Renault.

Alonso not bringing 6 tenths to McLaren so then Ferrari was dominant again? 

 

Very hard to predict with this whole different scenario indeed.

Kimi vs Hamilton at McLaren, who would have won? Hamilton probably but thanks to the switch to Bridgestones, which would've made Kimi start from scratch and adapt, even if in the same team.
Most likely a battle Hamilton vs Schumacher for the championship, with Kimi and Massa there or thereabouts, kinda close.

Alonso somewhere right behind the top 4, the Renaults would drop (and did drop) in performance with Bridgestones.

 

In any case, as I said, a 38 years old declining Michael may have still won, but still not dominating, pretty sure, he would've needed to work very hard against the young guns.

 

You maybe want to watch the races again. Reminder that Schumacher has a better qualifying battle record against Massa than Alonso against the way weaker Fisichella

Edited by krea, 28 October 2023 - 21:20.

[MikeTekRacing]

Germany, Turkey, Brazil
This trend, of Massa catching up to Michael, would have continued into 2007 and 2008, with Massa getting better better, and Michael only getting older and going off his prime, no doubt about that.
And so a proof is MS comeback with Mercedes, he was only a shadow of his former self.

However, thinking more in-depth of the full scenario, we would have:

-Kimi doesn't join ferrari so he stays at McLaren.
-Alonso doesn't join McLaren so he stays at Renault.
Alonso not bringing 6 tenths to McLaren so then Ferrari was dominant again?

Very hard to predict with this whole different scenario indeed.
Kimi vs Hamilton at McLaren, who would have won? Hamilton probably but thanks to the switch to Bridgestones, which would've made Kimi start from scratch and adapt, even if in the same team.
Most likely a battle Hamilton vs Schumacher for the championship, with Kimi and Massa there or thereabouts, kinda close.
Alonso somewhere right behind the top 4, the Renaults would drop (and did drop) in performance with Bridgestones.

In any case, as I said, a 38 years old declining Michael may have still won, but still not dominating, pretty sure, he would've needed to work very hard against the young guns.

Lol. Turkey he was stuck behind Alonso, he was not slower.
Brazil?! Lol!

I can’t remember Germany

Don’t know about age. It took him time to adapt back - but he was matching Rosberg in his last season. The cars was just sh!t at that moment

[RacingFan10]

McLaren approached Alonso even before Alonso won his first title. Irrespective of what Kimi or Schumacher did, Alonso would have raced for McLaren in 2007.

 

Then we would have both Alonso and Hamilton battling Schumacher, all 3 quite close, and then Kimi the 4th best but not far off.
 

You maybe want to watch the races again. Reminder that Schumacher has a better qualifying battle record against Massa than Alonso against the way weaker Fisichella

 

Yes, thanks to Massa being a newbie at Ferrari, but he was goint uphill very clearly

 

Lol. Turkey he was stuck behind Alonso, he was not slower.
Brazil?! Lol!

I can’t remember Germany

Don’t know about age. It took him time to adapt back - but he was matching Rosberg in his last season. The cars was just sh!t at that moment

I understand you are MS fan but himelf admitted in interviews that he had not the strength to be up to the task anymore, he needed to "stop" (at least for a while) after 2006 and then again at the end of 2012 (final retirement)

Edited by RacingFan10, 28 October 2023 - 22:13.

[krea]

The only race you can actually kindly give him is Turkey where he was fast all weekend despite Schumacher‘s unlucky safety car moment, though trying to give him Germany when both Ferrari were just cruising to victory is interesting.
If all races in 2007 included some external factors like Turkey and Brazil which favored Massa, then he could have a chance being close to Schumacher.

[lamo]

The only race you can actually kindly give him is Turkey where he was fast all weekend despite Schumacher‘s unlucky safety car moment, though trying to give him Germany when both Ferrari were just cruising to victory is interesting.
If all races in 2007 included some external factors like Turkey and Brazil which favored Massa, then he could have a chance being close to Schumacher.

Massa was not fast all weekend. Schumacher set quicker sector 2 and 3 times than Massa whilst carrying 7 laps more fuel. Michael just made a huge error in sector 1 to lose pole. Then the SC out before the first stops decided the race.

[RacingSmoke]

I understand you are MS fan but himelf admitted in interviews that he had not the strength to be up to the task anymore, he needed to "stop" (at least for a while) after 2006 and then again at the end of 2012 (final retirement)

 

The facts are as great as he was, if we're being real he lowkey ducked the smoke. He wasn't really dropped or ousted as some like to say, Ferrari were happy for him to continue for at least 2007. The only caveat was Raikkonen alongside him. Michael opted against this himself. For whatever reason that's just the truth. 

 

Personally I can't say for sure what would have happened, many factors and variables to deeply consider. But for sure there's a possibility he would have won in 2007 and 2008, but likewise he could have lost out in those years had he continued. I don't see anything as nailed on or definitely happening in that sense.

[F1Frog]

In 2006, Schumacher averaged 0.545% faster than Massa.

In 2007, Raikkonen averaged 0.025% faster than Massa.

In 2008, Massa averaged 0.212% faster than Raikkonen.

 

In 2010, Alonso averaged 0.452% faster than Massa.

In 2011, Alonso averaged 0.366% faster than Massa.

In 2012, Alonso averaged 0.412% faster than Massa.

In 2013, Alonso averaged 0.241% faster than Massa.

In 2014, Alonso averaged 0.417% faster than Raikkonen.

 

In 2007, Hamilton averaged 0.039% faster than Alonso.

 

These are just some stats behind the driver comparisons at the time. Personally, I think Schumacher would have made these cars look dominant, and they were clearly better than the McLarens.

[Astandahl]

In 2006, Schumacher averaged 0.545% faster than Massa.

In 2007, Raikkonen averaged 0.025% faster than Massa.

In 2008, Massa averaged 0.212% faster than Raikkonen.

 

In 2010, Alonso averaged 0.452% faster than Massa.

In 2011, Alonso averaged 0.366% faster than Massa.

In 2012, Alonso averaged 0.412% faster than Massa.

In 2013, Alonso averaged 0.241% faster than Massa.

In 2014, Alonso averaged 0.417% faster than Raikkonen.

 

In 2007, Hamilton averaged 0.039% faster than Alonso.

 

These are just some stats behind the driver comparisons at the time. Personally, I think Schumacher would have made these cars look dominant, and they were clearly better than the McLarens.

Of course.

Implying that Massa would have been close to Schumacher in 2007 and 2008 is borderline crazy.

 

We are talking about this guy:

 

[prty]

You maybe want to watch the races again. Reminder that Schumacher has a better qualifying battle record against Massa than Alonso against the way weaker Fisichella

That's very debatable, and qualifying doesn't give any points, nor it was equal due to fuel loads.
Schumacher crashed out in Australia and parked in Monaco, while Alonso didn't put a foot wrong the whole year, nor had better reliability. Alonso won the championship because he just outdrove Schumacher.

Edited by prty, 10 December 2023 - 16:47.

[Boxerevo]

Only F2008 was clearly better.

I don't rate Massa and Raikkonen close to Alonso and Hamilton, but 2007 was a beautiful season because it was really track dependent.

F1 was cooler. :sadness:

[George Costanza]

That's very debatable, and qualifying doesn't give any points, nor it was equal due to fuel loads.
Schumacher crashed out in Australia and parked in Monaco, while Alonso didn't put a foot wrong the whole year, nor had better reliability. Alonso won the championship because he just outdrove Schumacher.

Japan 2006? We'll never know what would have happened if Michael won that. Brazilian GP would have been very different.

[George Costanza]

Of course.
Implying that Massa would have been close to Schumacher in 2007 and 2008 is borderline crazy.

We are talking about this guy:

Yes that's seriously impressive. And I agree he would have smoked Massa easy.

[prty]

Japan 2006? We'll never know what would have happened if Michael won that. Brazilian GP would have been very different.

Alonso had the wheel nut problem in Hungary, so he didn't have better reliability. If Alonso had finished Hungary, Schumacher wouldn't have been in that position in the championship in Japan in the first place.

Edited by prty, 10 December 2023 - 20:09.

[George Costanza]

Alonso had the wheel nut problem in Hungary, so he didn't have better reliability. If Alonso had finished Hungary, Schumacher wouldn't have been in that position in the championship in Japan in the first place.

I suppose even in Italy of 2006 when Fernando engine blew up, so it is another what if situation.

[prty]

I suppose even in Italy of 2006 when Fernando engine blew up, so it is another what if situation.

True, I somehow thought that was 2005.

[Astandahl]

Yes that's seriously impressive. And I agree he would have smoked Massa easy.

Only 2 dominant cars in his career.

[George Costanza]

Only 2 dominant cars in his career.

Yup. That's actually quite remarkable.

[Nathan]

Problem with 2007 is Michael wouldn't have known which competitor to hit in Brazil.

 

Not.  He would have taken both out at turn 1.

[CoolBreeze]

I think Michael would have won easily over both years. I take into account that Michael has already the team built around him. The BS tyres were also working in his favour.

2007, the car was ok. Maybe with MS around, it could have been developed further into his liking, and i have no doubts he would have walked all over Kimi. With Mclaren infigthing drama, the title was probably on the platter for MS.

 

2008, the car was so much more better and faster than the F2007. Even with someone like Massa's caliber, only losing by 1 point. And he made so many mistakes. Michael would have no doubt aced the whole situation, as he has massive experience compared to Hamilton and Kimi.

 

Definitely would have been a 9 time WDC. In fact. i'm also convinced, had Rubens stayed, he would have been a 2x WDC now.

[ForzaFormula]

He would have won both years I think. The Ferrari was faster, but the superior Mclaren drivers made the difference.

This

[RedRabbit]

Yes.

Very.

Agreed. End thread. 😂

[RedRabbit]

Problem with 2007 is Michael wouldn't have known which competitor to hit in Brazil.

Not. He would have taken both out at turn 1.

He would have already won it by then.

[RedRabbit]

Todt was still there in 2007, but left at the end of the year.

Ross Brawn would have stayed on too had Michael continued.

[RedRabbit]

There was quite a big change at Ferrari in 06/07, and the elephant in the room is SpyGate. If Michael stays, Ross Brawn stays, and we can assume the harmony continues.

Without SpyGate, McLaren don't get the blueprints showing Ferrari's trick flexi floor, and other info helping them compete.

McLaren protested Ferrari's floor after Melbourne in 2007, or shortly after IIRC. That was a game changer for the season.

[Astandahl]

 

Unreal (especially for a "Sunday Driver" ).

There is no way he wouldn't have been the main favourite (by a huge margin) for 2007 and 2008 championships.

Edited by Astandahl, 30 December 2023 - 17:14.

[IrvTheSwerve]

 

Unreal (especially for a "Sunday Driver" ).

There is no way he wouldn't have been the main favourite (by a huge margin) for 2007 and 2008 championships.

Looking at it objectively…

 

Huge margin? No.

 

Favourite? Probably. Very good car against Fernando in the unknown McLaren and a rookie who we had very limited data on…

 

I think it would have gone down to the last 2 or 3 races at least.

 

Nothing to suggest that Fernando and Lewis couldn’t have gone toe-to-toe to him that year. All conjecture obviously…but definitely nothing to suggest a ‘huge margin’ for Michael.

[George Costanza]

Looking at it objectively…

Huge margin? No.

Favourite? Probably. Very good car against Fernando in the unknown McLaren and a rookie who we had very limited data on…

I think it would have gone down to the last 2 or 3 races at least.

Nothing to suggest that Fernando and Lewis couldn’t have gone toe-to-toe to him that year. All conjecture obviously…but definitely nothing to suggest a ‘huge margin’ for Michael.

It would be similar to Prost vs Mansell and Piquet... I think Michael would have won.