107 replies to this topic

[Greg Locock]

Obviously we don't know what level of prototype these are, here's some very cautious off roading. They've managed to keep the original styling, to my relief. It's about time car shapes got interesting.

 

https://twitter.com/...556240908681538

 

The nice thing with an EV for off roading is that you have direct control of the torque and speed commands for each motor, you don't waste power in the brakes (depending on how many motors you have). Whereas if I am mud plugging in my Everest, the brakes are acting as vector diffs.

[Magoo]

I  am fascinated and confused by the Cybertruck. I still don't know it if will  be a hit or a flop. Buyers are not the traditional Silverado/F-150/Silverado crowd, so it's not even clear who all the audience will be. Musk wanted to shake things up so here we go. 

Edited by Magoo, 03 November 2023 - 23:22.

[Nathan]

Since the mid 90s buyers of most trucks aren't traditional truck buying types, so I guess its the segment for it.

[jcbc3]

The more I see of it, the less I like the styling. I am also a bit curious as to how they got it through legislation regarding pedestrian safety. Did we also discuss that any dings and dents will be very expensive to repair, meaning insurance premiums may be a tad higher than the average car/Luxury truck? 

 

Well, living in downtown Copenhagen I am as far from the target audience as possible, so don't mind my opinion. Good luck to the (few/many?) buyers with their purchase.

[gruntguru]

Have to agree on the styling. Boring as batshit.

[Lee Nicolle]

Since the mid 90s buyers of most trucks aren't traditional truck buying types, so I guess its the segment for it.

Since Ford and GM are in trouble with EVs I doubt there is much of a market

[gruntguru]

Since Ford and GM are in trouble with EVs I doubt there is much of a market

.

Ford F-150 Lightning U.S. Sales Hit New Record In October 2023

https://insideevs.co...es-october2023/

[GreenMachine]

Since Ford and GM are in trouble with EVs I doubt there is much of a market

 

Elon will be disappointed to learn of this.

[Lee Nicolle]

.

Ford F-150 Lightning U.S. Sales Hit New Record In October 2023

https://insideevs.co...es-october2023/

Yet report aftr report has Ford EV division near bankrupt after losing billions on them.

[Lee Nicolle]

Obviously we don't know what level of prototype these are, here's some very cautious off roading. They've managed to keep the original styling, to my relief. It's about time car shapes got interesting.

 

https://twitter.com/...556240908681538

 

The nice thing with an EV for off roading is that you have direct control of the torque and speed commands for each motor, you don't waste power in the brakes (depending on how many motors you have). Whereas if I am mud plugging in my Everest, the brakes are acting as vector diffs.

It seems to have great problems coming up a normal 4 wd hill.

[Magoo]

Since Ford and GM are in trouble with EVs I doubt there is much of a market

 

They could try making good ones. 

[MikeTekRacing]

It seems to have great problems coming up a normal 4 wd hill.

it's testing. We have no clue what they are testing

[Magoo]

All-wheel-drive EVs tend to be ridiculously good in low-speed hill climbling and rock crawling.

[Bloggsworth]

All-wheel-drive EVs tend to be ridiculously good in low-speed hill climbling and rock crawling.

And just how many people will be buying them for that purpose?

[Magoo]

And just how many people will be buying them for that purpose?

 

I'm not altogeher clear who all the buyers will be. Tesla people (like Franz von Holzhausen, head of design) are fond of saying that  the orders come largely from non-truck owners, so we'll see. 

[gruntguru]

And just how many people will be buying them for that purpose?

Probably a similar percentage to those currently buying utes/trucks for serious off-road use - ie not many.

[GreenMachine]

"Trucks"?!  I would think any real 'truckie' would either take offence, or laugh out loud.

[Magoo]

By the way, here in the USA today we have been pounded with screaming headlines such as "GM BUYS KEY TESLA GIGACASTING COMPANY OUT FROM UNDER TESLA." 

 

But no, GM did not buy IDRA, the Italian-based, Hong Kong-owned maker of Gigapress aka gigacasting machines for Tesla. (Though Ford and Toyota have also bought machines.). 

 

Rather, GM has acquired TEI, a Livonia, Michigan maker of core boxes and so forth with 100 employees. 

 

If I were a really cynical, nasty person, I might even suspect that GM pushed and spun this story to deflect the news that Warren Buffett has dumped his $1 billion in GM shares. 

 

But as you know, I am Mr. Sunshine.with never a distrustful thought. Especially where automakers are concerned. 

[Lee Nicolle]

Electric Trucks?? In metro Melbourne on Tuesday a electric converted Kenworth caught fire big time on the Westgate Freeway about a km from the very high very large Westgate Bridge. Evidently causing traffic chaos for several hours. And no doubt poisoning the area for several months!

As has been pointed out by many if this had happened on the Westgate bridge it could have been a very major incident. 

The company doing these conversions has had the first one they converted burn to the ground in testing. Reutedly the rest of the fleet, I believe 3 or 4 in both Melbourne and Sydney have been parked. I suspect for good.

So Elon and his funny trucks may find buyers turned off as well as insurers. As it seems is happening with electric cars, especially in Europe.

Insurance rates will mean the end of this less that smart exercise. Even hybrids from what I read online. Plus ofcourse after this year shipping companies will be very leery of transporting the things, especially by ship.

[cbo]

So Elon and his funny trucks may find buyers turned off as well as insurers. As it seems is happening with electric cars, especially in Europe.
Insurance rates will mean the end of this less that smart exercise. Even hybrids from what I read online. Plus ofcourse after this year shipping companies will be very leery of transporting the things, especially by ship.

Not sure what you are alluding to?

EV sales in Europe are constantly growing and EV share of new car sales are on the rise as well.

As EVs burn less often than fossil fuel cars, fire hazards are not likely to drive up insurance costs and in my experience, hybrids are not more expensive to insure than fossil fuel cars. Teslas seems to be more expensive to insure, but I belive that is related to the cost of fixing that particular car, not EVs in general.

Also, comparing an EV conversion done by a man in a shed with a car from an actual car manufacturing company is not really on...

Edited by cbo, 30 November 2023 - 13:07.

[Magoo]

Tesla Cybertruck deliveries began today. 

 

 

https://www.caranddr...truck-revealed/

[Catalina Park]

Electric Trucks?? In metro Melbourne on Tuesday a electric converted Kenworth caught fire big time on the Westgate Freeway about a km from the very high very large Westgate Bridge. 

The company that owned that electric truck lost another truck in a fire right near that location about ten years ago, in that instance the driver was killed. One big difference though, that one was diesel.

[Nathan]

Electric Trucks?? In metro Melbourne on Tuesday a electric converted Kenworth caught fire big time on the Westgate Freeway about a km from the very high very large Westgate Bridge. Evidently causing traffic chaos for several hours. And no doubt poisoning the area for several months!

As has been pointed out by many if this had happened on the Westgate bridge it could have been a very major incident. 

 

I Google'd "australian semi on fire".  Pages and pages...  I wouldn't have thought there was already so many EV powered tractor units...

[gruntguru]

Thanks Nathan.

Not everyone is capable of using Google - even among those that are able to post here.

Edited by gruntguru, 03 December 2023 - 21:19.

[mariner]

Maybe the Cybertruck is too small  A UK company located at Silverstone's racing industry hub has produced an EV garbage truck with 0 to 50 mph in 6 seconds.

eIt's actually an MB garbage truck re-build but an obvious EV opportunity given the very low daily milage and overnight parking for slow recharge 

 

https://www.autocar....hicle-bin-lorry

 

Being a bit cynical about PR pieces these days I am surprised the life of a garbage truck is only seven years and 70,000 miles.. I would have thought the chassis and engine would last much longer and it would be the collection boz and loading gear that would wear out first?

[Charlieman]

Being a bit cynical about PR pieces these days I am surprised the life of a garbage truck is only seven years and 70,000 miles.. I would have thought the chassis and engine would last much longer and it would be the collection boz and loading gear that would wear out first?

That may be about the duration of waste disposal contracts with local authorities, requirements for new vehicles for a new contract etc. The lifespan of a bus shelter must be about 30 years but owing to the shelters being owned by advertising agencies, they get ripped out each time the advertising deal changes.

[Magoo]

According to data I've seen, here in the USA average life of a refuse truck is 10-11 years. The side-loaders (the ones that lift and empty wheelie bins) start and stop a dozen times a block, while the hydraulics on the rear-loaders tend to tear up the chassis frames. The big rollback trucks that carry one each steel rolloff dumpsters must last forever, judging by the ancient examples we see in use. 

[gruntguru]

Just listening to the trucks doing my local garbage collection I am not surprised they have a short life. WOT acceleration for 2-3 seconds - on the brakes - rinse - repeat . . 

 

Electric version makes so much sense in many ways:

Drivetrain life.

Noise pollution.

Low speed acceleration.

Regen braking. . . 

Edited by gruntguru, 03 December 2023 - 21:38.

[Greg Locock]

Somebody tried a hydraulic hybrid refuse truck. Obviously not a successful idea, and of course these days BEV or heavy hybrid is the way to go.

[Lee Nicolle]

Not sure what you are alluding to?

EV sales in Europe are constantly growing and EV share of new car sales are on the rise as well.

As EVs burn less often than fossil fuel cars, fire hazards are not likely to drive up insurance costs and in my experience, hybrids are not more expensive to insure than fossil fuel cars. Teslas seems to be more expensive to insure, but I belive that is related to the cost of fixing that particular car, not EVs in general.

Also, comparing an EV conversion done by a man in a shed with a car from an actual car manufacturing company is not really on...

I watch the news and EV sales world wide are in the toilet.. Far less prectical, far more expensive and it seems becoming very expensive to insure. And without Govt subsidies would struggle in the market big time.

[Greg Locock]

The insurance costs are driven by two things. Tesla's rather unfortunate reluctance to repair vehicles in a decent timeframe, and insurer's scaredy cat reluctance to rebuild a smashed up car. I'd guess these are teething troubles in an immature market. So far as sales globally, Nuh. They sell. Mostly in China and India. I don't know what they are buying, but I doubt NCAP 5* is a why-buy feature.

[cbo]

I watch the news and EV sales world wide are in the toilet..

Must be some rather different news and sales statistics from those actually showing EV sales....

Far less prectical, far more expensive and it seems becoming very expensive to insure.

That is your opinion on EVs, not actual fact.

And without Govt subsidies would struggle in the market big time.

Correct. People need incentives, if you want them to change their behaviour. Nothing new there....

[Nathan]

Isn't an EV the 3rd best selling vehicle in Australia? And for the first time didn't the share of EV cars sold in Australia exceed 10% of the total?

 

For the first time last quarter, EV sales in the U.S. exceeded 300,000 units.  Global BEV sales are up 29% YoY. Does Lee's toilet splash him in the face when he flushes?

 

I live in Canada, to the south is the United States.  As nations, we are the #1 and #4 largest oil producers in the world and both nations spend in the tens of billions subsidizing our petroleum industries. 

 

But seriously, who likes huffing the exhaust of thousands of cars?

Edited by Nathan, 04 December 2023 - 15:34.

[Greg Locock]

No, MG ZS is in 3rd place it is available as an EV or a ICEV. I don't know the split in sales between the 2 powertrains.

[gruntguru]

I watch the news and EV sales world wide are in the toilet..

 

 

 

 

Which toilet? Do you always crap uphill Lee?

Edited by gruntguru, 04 December 2023 - 23:07.

[desmo]

Someone needs to watch better news programming.

[Magoo]

Sandy Munro interviews Elon Musk on the Cybertruck. 

 

 

 

[Magoo]

Good in-depth review of the Cybertruck by a guy who understands the engineering. 

 

 

 

 

[GreenMachine]

Enjoyed that, thanks Magoo.

 

Beauty is as beauty does?  It will be interesting to see what he can/could produce as a sportscar, especially as regards on-the-limit feedback to the driver.

[Greg Locock]

Lee may well have heard a story like this https://www.usatoday...up/71572499007/ , EV sales aren't keeping up with EV manufacturing rates.

[MikeTekRacing]

Tesla shares document on 48V architecture 

https://electrek.co/...e-the-industry/

[Magoo]

Tesla shares document on 48V architecture 

https://electrek.co/...e-the-industry/

 

Now that Tesla has done it, the stampede begins. The automakers have kinda sorta thought about if for years, but they were too chicken and too cheap to pull the trigger. 

[Greg Locock]

True, but then if you are held to a 70% reuse rate for components from program to program then throwing out the entire electrical system uses most of that up, so there was never any short term (model on model) way of getting it in. I put it at a 6 year development task, in other words you'd be designing and developing and testing the 48V system through 2 model refreshes and 1 model release. That's a big overhead. Worth doing, too hard. I expect there are all sorts of powerpoints around with Kano or CBA charts with it in the not much delight, lots of effort quadrant. Probably around box 6 in this one.

https://www.prodpad....ary/kano-model/

[gruntguru]

Lee may well have heard a story like this https://www.usatoday...up/71572499007/ , EV sales aren't keeping up with EV manufacturing rates.

Yes - and I am sure this was a foreseeable outcome. Several years of undersupply has resulted in an under-damped response. The same will probably happen for combustion cars too.

[gruntguru]

Sandy Munro interviews Elon Musk on the Cybertruck. 

 

At 15:20 - Sandy Munro on the decision to go 48v and Ethernet:

 

. . . but to make a decision like that usually involves #1 - a bunch of MBA's and #2 - Lawyers - and as soon as that comes into play BOOM, i don't care what engineer - if you haven't got a leader that's going to be "nah I don't care - just do it" and that kind of obvious idea to an engineer - is just totally oblivious to people who count beans and basically try and make you do nothing new . . .

Hits the nail on the head. What makes Tesla different - the management structure. The dictatorship is working!

 

(For now - dictatorships do have a single point of failure.)

[MikeTekRacing]

True, but then if you are held to a 70% reuse rate for components from program to program then throwing out the entire electrical system uses most of that up, so there was never any short term (model on model) way of getting it in. I put it at a 6 year development task, in other words you'd be designing and developing and testing the 48V system through 2 model refreshes and 1 model release. That's a big overhead. Worth doing, too hard. I expect there are all sorts of powerpoints around with Kano or CBA charts with it in the not much delight, lots of effort quadrant. Probably around box 6 in this one.
https://www.prodpad....ary/kano-model/

If you are held to that target - that’s one of the reasons management fails in those companies.
That’s again one of the reasons the industry is schooled by a startup that doesn’t care about these thing
Ultimately that startup saves WAY more cost by risking and innovating than legacy auto does by continuing to stick to an iterative approach.


I feel for the engineers in those companies. I am sure countless great initiatives were killed by idiotic management, super shortsighted on the next bonus payout cycle

[Greg Locock]

Unfortunately the existing OEMs have become beholden to quarterly figures. In an industry where anything significant takes a year that is ridiculous, but there we are.

[cbo]

Lee may well have heard a story like this https://www.usatoday...up/71572499007/ , EV sales aren't keeping up with EV manufacturing rates.

Yes - and I am sure this was a foreseeable outcome. Several years of undersupply has resulted in an under-damped response. The same will probably happen for combustion cars too.

Yes, a year ago, delivery times for a new EV was often "a year... perhaps", except for Tesla, which has been available continously, if not necessarily the exact model you wanted. Now production has caught up with demand and exceeded it. So the lots are filling and prices dropping. But EVs still sell like hotcakes and worldwide sales are booming.

What Lee stated was that EV sales was down world wide. Which is wrong.

Edited by cbo, 09 December 2023 - 10:31.

[cbo]

Now that Tesla has done it, the stampede begins. The automakers have kinda sorta thought about if for years, but they were too chicken and too cheap to pull the trigger.

Judging from chitchat and hearsay among PHEV owners like myself, the 12-volt battery is probably the single biggest cause of trouble.

A few years back, the police here had alot of trouble with all sorts of failures in their shiny new VW police cars. It turné out that once they put in all the communication system, computers, speed measuring devices etc. vital systems in the car did not get enough power and ABS, ESC, sensors etc. began to fail erraticaly.

The manufacturers have been sitting on their 12-volt a*ses for at least a decade.....

I'm not a fan of Tesla, the car, nor the pr*ck in charge of the company, but I increasingly appreciate Tesla, the company, for disrupting the car industry.

[desmo]

Unfortunately the existing OEMs have become beholden to quarterly figures. In an industry where anything significant takes a year that is ridiculous, but there we are.

They should be chiseling this on the tombstone of brain dead late-stage capitalism. Stupid on steroids, and in mindless lockstep all the way. The MBA might be the only degree path that churns out idiots at a full 100% rate.