82 replies to this topic

[Michael Ferner]

Max Verstappen on the first lap/first corner incident with Charles Leclerc:
 

As soon as you're a bit offline here, it's a super low grip and that's what happened. I braked and there was no grip. I didn't mean to push Charles off the track, but I couldn't slow it down and I just kept sliding wide on four wheels. So that's why we had to go wide.

 

It's a wonder how racing drivers, in the last century, managed to negotiate the first corner of a race without much trouble, and without the benefit of miles of tarmac runoff.

 

Today's driving standards are at a pathetic all-time low. Modern drivers get coached all around the track, yet they are still unable to negotiate a corner safely because - oops! - the grip isn't there? In my opinion, Max Verstappen is way overrated, and has no place amongst the greats of this sport, which by extension means that neither has any of the other hot shots in the field - what a bunch of lame-os. They'd be all off within two corners in a real race on a real track.

 

Some time earlier this year, TV started showing pictures from a pedal cam, but quickly stopped because the images were just too pathetic - only two pedals! In my youth, I used to watch in awe when F1 and other racing drivers were doing their stuff, thinking "No way could I ever do that!" Nowadays, every spotty youth with a playstation is already qualified enough, he just needs the courage and LOTS OF MONEY to jump through the hoops.

 

Oh, yes, we're told that modern drivers need so much brain capacity for the many buttons and levers on the steering wheel, it's become such a complex job! In reality, the only important knob is the one for the intercom, though, as they can always ask "What's that shiny green button for, again?" Their 'race engineer' will always tell them what to do. "Remember to brake for the pit entry, and turn left for the stall..." Ugh!

 

F1 has become a joke, and a bad one at that.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 20 November 2023 - 09:32.

[Porsche718]

Michael, I agree whole heartedly. "lame-os". Love it.

 

But we better get straight into nostalgia before we end up in trouble.

 

Two things I always marvel at.

 

Firstly ... 1300 bhp in qually trim and 7 speed manual shift around Monaco or the like!!! Yikes.

 

and back even further ... I wonder if I could get my head around a pre-selector ENV box. The idea of selecting the gear, then at the right moment popping the clutch!

 

Then, you've pre-slected your gear, then someone has an off ahead of you and cars are baulked or slow unexpectedly. Man, what gear am I in, and what will happen if I need a lower gear to get through any rapidly slowing cars?

 

I can see me quickly destroying a pre-selector (or engine) for constanty picking the wrong gear.

 

Maybe there are some TNFers out there who have had experience with them?

Edited by Porsche718, 21 November 2023 - 03:45.

[Michael Ferner]

I hear you on the pre-selector gearbox, almost as difficult as pressing the "engine mode" button on the steering wheel!!

 
As for "1300 bhp in qually trim and 7 speed manual shift around Monaco or the like!!! Yikes"...
 

Fernando Alonso believes current Formula 1 cars “are not made” for the slow-speed corners present in Las Vegas after the high-speed straights.

He added it was “not much fun” in driving that kind of layout in the cold conditions, with grip and temperatures proving to be tough to find for the drivers all weekend long in Las Vegas.

While it was the first event on a freshly-surfaced track, Alonso believes modern Formula 1 cars are designed for the sweeping corners of some of the series’ classics, rather than the long straights and big stops of Las Vegas.

Poor Alonso pines for the days of the turbo monsters, tailormade for Monaco, or for the cigar-shaped gas tanks on four wheels that were so perfect for the Nürburgring. Maybe he'd rather drive in a Silberpfeil up and down Pescara's mountain serpentines, and along the five-kilometre straights? Much more comfortable than a present day's F1 car, isn't it? Or a supercharged Miller on a 20s board track, what could be more pleasant to drive? Maybe a Mors on the roads down to Bordeaux...

 

Meanwhile, he entertains us by barrelling into the first corner like a loose canon, taken by complete surprise that there wasn't any grip! No, we can't have that, cars adhering to simple principles of physics!!? Multiple champions, unable to cope with F1 cars that aren't build for the sanitized tracks of today, what's next...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 20 November 2023 - 10:44.

[F1Frog]

Max Verstappen absolutely deserves his place among the all time greats because he is the best of his era. It is just a different game to the 1950s. He knew that he could afford to be more daring on the brakes because of the run off and obviously got away with very little penalty. If braking late and finding no grip would have sent him into the wall, he wouldn’t have done it, but it was far less a risk than in the past.

You can prefer the motorsport of the past and that is totally fine, I probably do as well mostly. But modern drivers are just playing to different rules to those of the past, and it doesn’t lessen their ability.

To me, drivers of all eras are equally talented and I would rank them based on how special I think they were for their era.

Edited by F1Frog, 20 November 2023 - 12:28.

[JonnyA]

I think it's quite clear Max's excuse is just that - an excuse, and he never had any intention of making the corner on the correct line, but would have been very capable of doing so if he wasn't intent on barging the Ferrari out of the way.

[ensign14]

 Today's driving standards are at a pathetic all-time low.  

 

As opposed to when dear old Dottorino Ottorino could pootle around the Nurburgring at road-car speeds and be a World Championship F1 driver?  Or when Fangio could pick up cheap wins by bursting his car but hopping into a benighted team-mate's?  Or when Goux could win a GP ahead of a banker and an engineer with a crippled engine because there was nobody else there?  And that's just F1 - I haven't got to Herman the Turtle or Flyin' Phil Caliva.

 

It's not the driving standards - this is the age-old thing of drivers doing what they can get away with if it is permitted.  No doubt had there been a 30 second penalty for Verstappen at the first corner he would not have done it.  It is not the driving standards at an all-time low, but their enforcement.  Once upon a time the enforcement was the Grim Reaper; then it was stewards with teeth giving penalties; now it is a patchwork of stewards unfit for the job but who will do the political job imposed on them.

[Michael Ferner]

I thought you've claimed to have not watched Formula 1 since the 1980s; what made you change your mind on viewing?

 

It's actually a very sad story, not wanting to expand on the trigger for ending a (very enjoyable!) twenty-year break. But anyway, I'm adamant to break the bad habit again, and have just watched a few minutes highlights of the last half dozen races, or so. Winter break can't come soon enough!

 

 

To F1Frog, I can see in your byline another sign of the times, the driver bashing which has become such a nuisance. "X has destroyed Y...", "X was found out by Y..." and all that nonsense. If Latifi was that bad, how come he regularly qualified within a couple of seconds of 'all-time' greats such as Verstappen, even in a dog of a car? If he's trash, then all the others are, too. Verstappen is the best of his era, I concurr, but the era is sheet. You're damn right it's a different game to the 1950s!!

 

 

To ensign, topic missed, but playing your game I'm sure Volonterio would be a points finisher these days.

Edited by Michael Ferner, 20 November 2023 - 13:07.

[dmj]

Volonterio would be able to score points only if he’d first spend twenty years training and preparing his body and mind for the racing career, as more or less every racing driver today has to do. Differences across the grid are generally much less than in previous decades just due to that – all of the current pack are highly trained and able to achieve times much closer to the best ones that journeymen of the past could back then.

We can argue that sport itself was better in the days gone (and most of us wouldn’t be here if we don’t think and feel just so) but in reality it isn’t, it is just different. Drivers do whatever they are allowed to do at current set of regulations/standards, being it fair or not. But greatness always shows. Same “clumsy” “low grip” Verstappen earlier this year drove a Q3 lap in Monaco that equals any "magic" performance I saw from Senna or Schumacher, or any performance I read about from Fangio or Clark. Simply, the greatest of its era at its best. Details and circumstances may be different but greatness isn’t.

I’d even dare to say that certain level of clumsiness is what we are missing today. I prefer old days at least partly due to much bigger differences between cars, drivers’ skills and pretty much everything. It’s not just racing: I hate high level of professionalism required for any sport today. Racing drivers, footballers, tennis players… don’t do anything else in their lives, from very early age, becoming sort of human machines intended to do just one thing. They don’t have time to develop their personalities through multitude of different experiences – if they diversify, they will inevitably lack the focus and never reach the highest level at their respective sports.

Thus, in my racing heroes of the past I adore complete human beings first, racing drivers second, while with today’s drivers it is the opposite way.

Edited by dmj, 20 November 2023 - 14:27.

[F1Frog]

The Latifi thing in the byline is nothing to do with Latifi himself, it is a personal story which I just like to see when I write a comment although it means nothing to other people on here. But Latifi was the worst driver on the grid in 2022 so is bad for an F1 driver but obviously not overall as a driver. And I very much doubt that driver bashing has not been a thing forever.

 

But I suspect if Max Verstappen and Nicholas Latifi were teammates, Verstappen would average about 1.5% faster than Latifi. That is a much smaller gap than between Juan Manuel Fangio and Peter Collins in 1956, or between Alberto Ascari and Mike Hawthorn in 1953. This is because drivers get so much more help today to be closer to the limit as possible, and allows average drivers to be closer on outright pace to the greats than in the past. In Fangio's great drive on the Nurburgring in 1957, he said that there were corners that he was taking in a gear higher than usual and realising he could. If that happened today, all the drivers would already have been doing that, because they would have seen the telemetry that suggested as such. And they would have done many laps on a simulator and tried it. And they probably would have tried it in free practice to make sure because, if they did crash as a result, they wouldn't be killed unlike in the 1950s. And they also have plenty of psychological and physical training to help them never make mistakes that drivers of the past didn't have.

 

So if you were to take the theoretical fastest possible lap in the RB19, Verstappen is close to that, and an average F1 driver like Perez is also quite close to that. And even a 'bad' F1 driver like Latifi isn't too far away. If you do the same with the Maserati 250F, Fangio would probably be further away from that theoretical fastest possible lap than Latifi is today. So that is the argument for modern drivers being better than drivers of the past, nothing to do with memorising buttons. But for me, that is cancelled out by the fact that they are trained so much and given so much help to get so close to that limit, for reasons explained above. But that training is still a skill in itself.

 

In my opinion, Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso are approximately equal in ability to Fangio, Moss and Ascari, but they are playing a totally different game. In terms of who is the best of those six is down to personal opinion, and who you think is the most special for their era. Then Hawthorn, Collins and Musso are probably approximately equal to Perez, Bottas and Ocon. And Volonterio is approximately equal to Latifi. 

[68targa]

. Then Hawthorn, Collins and Musso are probably approximately equal to Perez,

 

No way - Hawthorn and Collins had much more fun

[ensign14]

 

To ensign, topic missed, but playing your game I'm sure Volonterio would be a points finisher these days.

 

Well, he would have been in 1956, had they given the logical 1 point for 6th...

 

Differences across the grid are generally much less than in previous decades just due to that – all of the current pack are highly trained and able to achieve times much closer to the best ones that journeymen of the past could back then.

 

 

Actually I think that's more down to formula design.  The cars do not allow the best to exploit their talents.  If, say, Hamilton could get the best possible time out of a car driving at 90% of his potential, while Latifi could only by driving at 105%, then the difference between them is going to be 5% rather than 15%.  (not real maths, but an indication)

 

The best indication of this was that remarkable run of Hamilton's in wet races - something like 9 wins in a row when that difference was something that could be exploited.

[Michael Ferner]

Interesting points brought forward.

 

I can buy that the Verstappen explanation is reeking of BS - he's probably just exploiting how far he can go, without terminal damage to his car or risking a penalty. Does that make it better? Not in my opinion, because it makes a poor spectacle of the contest between drivers on the track. And it doesn't explain away Alonso's brain fart. Yes, drivers (even the best of them) always made mistakes, also in the past. Maybe with the margins being smaller these days (which I can also accept, due to the reason pointed out) they have to push closer to the limits, and with the increased safety they are effectively encouraged to do that.

 

What it all represents though, in my opinion, is a dumbing down of the sport. Nobody wants to go back to the days of blood and death, but without the ultimate punishment (I'm sounding like Moss now) we end up with real life video games. I'm also with Dino about the high level of professionalism, it doesn't help the sport. Nor do the rules, with the many pit stops keeping the cars at optimum performance levels throughout the races. We need cars and drivers making (tiny) mistakes to bring back overtaking and on-track action, not faux DRS passes. I remain unimpressed with today's drivers, I don't think Verstappen or Alonso can hold a candle to the likes of Derek Warwick or Jean-Pierre Jarier in the past. It's just not cricket.

[PlatenGlass]

Interesting points brought forward.

 

I can buy that the Verstappen explanation is reeking of BS - he's probably just exploiting how far he can go, without terminal damage to his car or risking a penalty. Does that make it better? Not in my opinion, because it makes a poor spectacle of the contest between drivers on the track. And it doesn't explain away Alonso's brain fart. Yes, drivers (even the best of them) always made mistakes, also in the past. Maybe with the margins being smaller these days (which I can also accept, due to the reason pointed out) they have to push closer to the limits, and with the increased safety they are effectively encouraged to do that.

 

What it all represents though, in my opinion, is a dumbing down of the sport. Nobody wants to go back to the days of blood and death, but without the ultimate punishment (I'm sounding like Moss now) we end up with real life video games. I'm also with Dino about the high level of professionalism, it doesn't help the sport. Nor do the rules, with the many pit stops keeping the cars at optimum performance levels throughout the races. We need cars and drivers making (tiny) mistakes to bring back overtaking and on-track action, not faux DRS passes. I remain unimpressed with today's drivers, I don't think Verstappen or Alonso can hold a candle to the likes of Derek Warwick or Jean-Pierre Jarier in the past. It's just not cricket.

 

I don't think anyone can hold a candle to Jean-Pierre Jarier.

 

[funformula]

These comparisons of racing drivers of different eras is pointless. They all had to deal with different tasks and each of these tasks required a special talent to make the best out of it. 

 

Missing the first corner at the Las Vegas GP wasn´t a matter of lack of talent, it was done on purpose... and both drivers knew that. There was no misjudging or that they were caught off by a lack of grip, judging this is basic race craft already learned in kart, there these guys already showed their talent...without being guided by intercom.

 

Driving a race car on it´s very limit was never easy, not in the past and not today.

I wish some of the folk here on TNF had been behind the wheel of a race car rather than in an armchair.

[Jim Thurman]

I think, to put it simply, Michael is really more against all the driver's aids and lack (or inconsistency) of standards.

 

Am I right Michael? Or have I put it too oversimplistically? 

 

It reminds me of watching a lower class (Sportsman) drag racing telecast back in the early 90s with my father. The driver explained how he set the automatic line launch, set the automatic gear change, set this, set that...it left my father asking: "Does he do anything other than steer?"    At the end of that season, the sanctioning body banned most driver aids.

[Jim Thurman]

Also, along the lines of high tech ruining the sport. Michael, I know your feelings about "taxicabs"  , but pavement short track stock car racing truly was ruined when everyone was able to buy the best chassis, best engines and best tires, that they could get from suppliers (sometimes even at stores!). It made the fields so "equal" that passing became nearly impossible and it often became processional. Prior to that time, chassis set up, engine building, tire choice and driver ability shined through and the differences between the true talents and the rest was readily apparent. As was seeing driving talent in uncompetitive cars.

[Ray Bell]

And on the subject of the kids being raised to be World Champions...

 

This encouragement was offered up at a go-kart meeting...

 

Encouragement. This sign was up in the marshalling area of a round of the Dutch National Championship...

 

Encouraged? ...for six to eleven-year-olds.

 

...two weeks after Max had his first win.

[Porsche718]

Whilst not supporting the modern "steerer's" and "button pushers" of this modern era, it would be fair to ask ... how many of the chain-smoking, hard-drinking, long-partying champions of the past would be in good enough condition to cope with the G forces of the latest machines?

 

I have heard numbers of 2G accelerating, over 4G in braking, and up to 6G in cornering. Not to mention the sudden change from one to another.

 

How long would it have taken James Hunt to pass out?

Edited by Porsche718, 20 November 2023 - 22:08.

[Stephen W]

Max Verstappen absolutely deserves his place among the all time greats because he is the best of his era. It is just a different game to the 1950s. He knew that he could afford to be more daring on the brakes because of the run off and obviously got away with very little penalty. If braking late and finding no grip would have sent him into the wall, he wouldn’t have done it, but it was far less a risk than in the past.

 

I would agree that Mad Max is probably one of the top three drivers of this era. This does not make him an "all time great" not by a long chalk. I doubt he would have survived against the likes of Reutemann and Jones. He would have been a backmarker in the Clark, Surtees, Hill & Stewart era. So yes I'll concede that he's the best of a bad bunch.

 

I think it's quite clear Max's excuse is just that - an excuse, and he never had any intention of making the corner on the correct line, but would have been very capable of doing so if he wasn't intent on barging the Ferrari out of the way.

 

From the on-board there is an interesting moment when Max steers towards the Ferrari. Just enough to close up the gap and cause Charles to head further into the boon-docks. 

[Gabrci]

I would agree that Mad Max is probably one of the top three drivers of this era. This does not make him an "all time great" not by a long chalk. I doubt he would have survived against the likes of Reutemann and Jones. He would have been a backmarker in the Clark, Surtees, Hill & Stewart era. So yes I'll concede that he's the best of a bad bunch.

 

How can someone watch motor racing for so long and say something this dumb? 

 

His breakfast, that's what Jones and Reutemann would have been. 

[dmj]

Actually, each of mentioned drivers would have the others for breakfast if provided with much more familiar equipment. Today’s drivers would be indefinitely better in modern cars, old ones in old cars. And I am a deep believer that any great driver would shine in other eras after some time of learning and training. It might be harder for old drivers to adapt to modern cars physically, simply due to really long time spent in gym needed to reach the level of stamina modern drivers have.

Looking at modern F1 people tend to forget that today’s drivers gone through many lesser categories and do know how to handle a manual gearbox (although I’m not sure if any lower category has manual clutch anymore), so my belief is that they could physically adapt to driving old cars relatively easy – could they mentally handle dangers, unreliability, continuous stream of losing friends and rivals in fatal accidents, and other once common aspects of racing, that is the other question.

It is something that we will never know, however I strongly believe that they would.

It reminds me of that famous DSJ story, when a guy walked into a room, somewhere in USA, and Jenks saw him, concluding he’s a racing driver, just because he walked like a racing driver and had a certain look in his eyes, that only racing drivers have. Guy turned out to be certain Cale Yarborough.

IMHO, if DSJ would somehow be revived and if Verstappen or Leclerc walk into a room, he would instantly recognize them as the racing drivers.

[ensign14]

With some exceptions for things like physiology, drivers from Era A would be competitive in Era B, because the requirements to get to the top in racing - a natural talent, dedication, ruthlessness - are common across all eras.  A driver like, say, Alonso would not be bothered by the lack of safety in the 1960s if he had grown up with it.  It would have been as expected.

 

Indeed we get some idea the way he flung Bernie's 375 around Silverstone.  Similarly Clark's run in Lindsay's ERA.  And I bet Rosemeyer would have had fun in a Lautenschlager Mercedes given half the chance.

 

There may have been some differences at the edges.  Would Hawthorn have kept off the booze in the modern era?  Would Graham Hill have even got to the entry level?  Also some drivers were fitted to some formulae - Hunt and Mansell seemed to get better the more powerful the cars were, so may have struggled a bit in the 1.5 litre era, while the drifters would have needed to adapt to high aero; but given drivers like Mario and Bell were able to do so, why not Nuvolari?

[AJCee]

How can someone watch motor racing for so long and say something this dumb?

His breakfast, that's what Jones and Reutemann would have been.

I think Alan Jones would have had him wearing his breakfast if he’d tried…


Rather under-rated Mr Jones I think. A tough and fair racer and for three years in a very competitive field one of the very best.

[Michael Ferner]

I don't think anyone can hold a candle to Jean-Pierre Jarier.

 

 

All this talk about 'mental age' and James Hunt, the word "glasshouse" keeps ringing in my ears...

 

 

My initial thought was, hell, this is the best driver of his generation by far, and he's surprised by finding no grip in a standard situation like that? But, on reflection, I'm sure it was done on purpose, so the whole thing becomes irrelevant, in a way. Yes, you could easily avoid situations like that with a 'power off' modus, like it was done in video games back in the eighties already: leave the track, and your gas pedal won't respond for about five seconds, before you can continue. I can't imagine implementation would present any problems these days, but hey, it's probably not wanted by the authorities, and I couldn't care less. The product is flawed in many ways already, so no use peddling with the symptoms.

 

As for current drivers being as skillful as those of the past, I still have my doubts. There's the argument that you can only be the best for the given conditions, and that's certainly right, but the conditions are just... pathetic. I can't really say it with another word. It's like real life video games, and I'm in favour of banning it to save the planet - let the 'drivers' loose on a playstation, that's what they do 24/7 anyway as I understand, and it would make a contribution to energy saving and pollution avoidance. Motor racing is so 20th century...

[F1matt]

I don’t think we can blame the drivers; they can only adapt to the situation they are placed in. For me a genuine street circuit shouldn’t have any run off, but over on racing comments I am a dinosaur or a masochist. 

 

Didn’t Mario Andretti once say if you can drive, you can drive. Period. Or something along those lines, who am I to argue with someone of that calibre. Good drivers find a way to adapt and win, when the car has a chance of getting across the line first some drivers make sure they are behind the wheel. If we sent Lewis Hamiton or Max Verstappen back to another period you can’t tell me they wouldn’t adapt and be in the mix, and at the same time if we were to forward Jim Clark and Jackie Stewart to a Red Bull or a Mercedes they would be in the mix. 

 

To be at the top of your tree in any era needs skill, intelligence, and commitment, and all the best drivers have that. If Clark or Stewart had to spend 6 hours a day in a simulator to find a few extra 10ths, or spend countless hours in debriefs to manage their tyres so they can get the most out of the car to ensure they would come out on top I have no doubt they will be there. And having watched Lewis Hamilton in a Formula Renault at Croft years ago he clearly has very little fear and stepping into a car with reduced safety and gimmicks clearly doesn’t hinder him. 

[Jim Thurman]

Whilst not supporting the modern "steerer's" and "button pushers" of this modern era, it would be fair to ask ... how many of the chain-smoking, hard-drinking, long-partying champions of the past would be in good enough condition to cope with the G forces of the latest machines?

 

I have heard numbers of 2G accelerating, over 4G in braking, and up to 6G in cornering. Not to mention the sudden change from one to another.

 

How long would it have taken James Hunt to pass out?

A lot of this is viewed through current lenses. Recency bias makes some feel like things have never been better. Yet "we know so much more now" always pales in the future, with each generation getting more obnoxious about it  And, despite all of that, humanity keeps making the same mistakes as well. This applies to conditioning. What's to say some of chain-smoking, hard-drinking long partying drivers of the past wouldn't adapt? Or that any of the current drivers would fall into those were they in that era? More importantly, all of the drivers in the past weren't chain-smoking, hard-drinking and long partying and there have been some of the current/recent drivers who were hardly the model of propriety and fitness    Just a long-winded way of saying things weren't all one way or the other, aren't all one way or the other and never will be.

 

I mentioned years ago in Racing Comments that there's something that makes people believe that their time was the best, be it arguing the current or the past. And, as I wrote at the time, those on each side are both completely right and completely wrong 

[chr1s]

 

 

How long would it have taken James Hunt to pass out?

About the same amount of time as Verstappen would have lasted on a night out with him!

[Lee Nicolle]

Max Verstappen on the first lap/first corner incident with Charles Leclerc:
 

 

It's a wonder how racing drivers, in the last century, managed to negotiate the first corner of a race without much trouble, and without the benefit of miles of tarmac runoff.

 

Today's driving standards are at a pathetic all-time low. Modern drivers get coached all around the track, yet they are still unable to negotiate a corner safely because - oops! - the grip isn't there? In my opinion, Max Verstappen is way overrated, and has no place amongst the greats of this sport, which by extension means that neither has any of the other hot shots in the field - what a bunch of lame-os. They'd be all off within two corners in a real race on a real track.

 

Some time earlier this year, TV started showing pictures from a pedal cam, but quickly stopped because the images were just too pathetic - only two pedals! In my youth, I used to watch in awe when F1 and other racing drivers were doing their stuff, thinking "No way could I ever do that!" Nowadays, every spotty youth with a playstation is already qualified enough, he just needs the courage and LOTS OF MONEY to jump through the hoops.

 

Oh, yes, we're told that modern drivers need so much brain capacity for the many buttons and levers on the steering wheel, it's become such a complex job! In reality, the only important knob is the one for the intercom, though, as they can always ask "What's that shiny green button for, again?" Their 'race engineer' will always tell them what to do. "Remember to brake for the pit entry, and turn left for the stall..." Ugh!

 

F1 has become a joke, and a bad one at that.

Max simply did not even attempt to go around the corner, just pushed Leclerc way offline.

[uechtel]

 

All this talk about 'mental age' and James Hunt, the word "glasshouse" keeps ringing in my ears...

 

 

My initial thought was, hell, this is the best driver of his generation by far, and he's surprised by finding no grip in a standard situation like that? But, on reflection, I'm sure it was done on purpose, so the whole thing becomes irrelevant, in a way. Yes, you could easily avoid situations like that with a 'power off' modus, like it was done in video games back in the eighties already: leave the track, and your gas pedal won't respond for about five seconds, before you can continue. I can't imagine implementation would present any problems these days, but hey, it's probably not wanted by the authorities, and I couldn't care less. The product is flawed in many ways already, so no use peddling with the symptoms.

 

As for current drivers being as skillful as those of the past, I still have my doubts. There's the argument that you can only be the best for the given conditions, and that's certainly right, but the conditions are just... pathetic. I can't really say it with another word. It's like real life video games, and I'm in favour of banning it to save the planet - let the 'drivers' loose on a playstation, that's what they do 24/7 anyway as I understand, and it would make a contribution to energy saving and pollution avoidance. Motor racing is so 20th century...

When after Paris-Madrid town-to-town races were stopped in 1903 surely many people said this is the end of real racing...

[ensign14]

I think Charles Jarrott did - thought 50 mile circuits were repetitive...

[Jim Thurman]

I think Charles Jarrott did - thought 50 mile circuits were repetitive...

It's sort of getting away, in a way, from Michael's point, but I've seen journalists decrying racing as "not what it used to be" from as early as the 1910s and 1920s ("it's not like the days of Eddie Hearne"), and former drivers doing so from the 1920s (Oldfield) and 1940s (DePalma) onward. Fred Frame complained not so much about the racing itself, but the decline in purses, stating that drivers had to compete almost nightly, most of the year 'round, in midgets, to come close to making what he used to in far fewer races.

[Charlieman]

I've just watched the highlights of this dismal affair. I always read race reports before I watch F1 TV summaries, and I was led to believe that Las Vegas would confound low expectations.

 

There was lots of overtaking and close racing. However the events lacked context because every piece of track looked the same. There was no possibility of filming an overhead view of 500 metres of racing -- one of the joys of the Brazilian GP. It took six cameras to film some corners.

 

The first corner manoeuvre by Verstappen was totally cynical. I fear for F1 journalism given the unquestioning reports of Verstappen's explanation.

 

Liberty's responsibility to its share holders is to sell F1 as a spectacle, and in a more moral world the company would achieve this by facilitating great races. Reporters need to show some scepticism.

[Rob Ryder]

Anyone know who the Red Bull delegate was on the podium collecting the Constructors Trophy?

[Disco Stu]

I believe it was the person in charge of their simulator operations

[Michael Ferner]

Then he absolutely deserves to be on the podium. probably more than Verstappen.

[john aston]

Oh give it a rest. It is possible to enjoy F 1 ancient AND modern. An open mind helps, and removal of rosy tinted spectacles. There is probably a thesis to be written on why many people over a certain age convince themselves everything was better in their youth- and many under that age are equally convinced that everything is better now than it has ever been . And both are equally tiresome . 

 

This morning I will continue reading a 1970 copy of Motor I found on line , with particular focus on Paul Frere's piece on the Porsche 908 ad 917 , and later on I will watch qualifying from whatever Gulf state is this week's host. I can take or leave the venue , but I will enjoy the rest.    

[Rob Ryder]

I believe it was the person in charge of their simulator operations

 

Thanks, but can't find his name anywhere on the Interweb. Now if it was Horner or Marko !!!!!

 

Edit :  Found him - identified on Getty Images :  Francesco Laus, Senior Tyre Simulation Engineer 

 

 

Edited by Rob Ryder, 25 November 2023 - 19:37.

[Jim Thurman]

Oh give it a rest. It is possible to enjoy F 1 ancient AND modern. An open mind helps, and removal of rosy tinted spectacles. There is probably a thesis to be written on why many people over a certain age convince themselves everything was better in their youth- and many under that age are equally convinced that everything is better now than it has ever been . And both are equally tiresome . 

 

This morning I will continue reading a 1970 copy of Motor I found on line , with particular focus on Paul Frere's piece on the Porsche 908 ad 917 , and later on I will watch qualifying from whatever Gulf state is this week's host. I can take or leave the venue , but I will enjoy the rest.    

  I am not currently following F1, but concur. While I always enjoy Michael's musings, and how he puts them, more than most others, the internet in general could learn from the internet/social media quote: "I won't yuck someone else's yum."   

[AJCee]

I still watch modern F1 and even look forward to it. I miss some of the old tracks and find the new ones very same-ey, I wish the formula was looser to allow some difference, but it’s still racing, just different. One thing I do know is that for the last 45 years+ people have been bemoaning the lack of overtaking and how things aren’t as good as they were.
The only thing I am sad about is that at the Formula 1 level it seems unpopular to enjoy the sport as a sport and it is somehow essential to embrace the myopic tribalism of football to be ‘a fan’. Some say the rot set in at Brands Hatch 1976, it certainly did at Silverstone 1987…

[2Bob]

Thanks, but can't find his name anywhere on the Interweb. Now if it was Horner or Marko !!!!!

 

Edit :  Found him - identified on Getty Images :  Francesco Laus, Senior Tyre Simulation Engineer 

 

 

 

I thought I would find out what a Tyre Simulation Engineer does.  Using Dr Google I found several ads for people to fill this or similar roles.  I think the first requirement would be to understand the job description.... something that caught my eye was a benefit of one job :

• A range of tax efficient salary sacrifice options including a cycle to work scheme."   would this provide practical experience related to the job? 

[Dave Ware]

I looked for the article I'm about to reference but couldn't find it.  Since I read so little about modern racing, I probably read it on racer.com.  Maaaybe I read it in one of Ross Bentley's emails, which I subscribe to.  I looked around and searched and couldn't find it.  My apologies for that. 

 

The article I read said that F1 and Indy Car drivers crash so often in the first turn because the car owners want them to take that extra risk, and they don't mind if their driver ends up crashing periodically.  

 

Or maybe it's just F1; I don't pay enough attention to Indy Car to know if they also crash in the first turn all the time.  

 

While this might be a "reason" for all of these first-corner, first-lap crashes, I don't agree that it makes it acceptable, or preserves the standard of driving that we expect at the professional level.  

 

To make part of this post historical, I'd say that in the olde days, not only did drivers avoid crashes because it was so easily deadly, but also because (I'm sure) few teams could afford to pay for frequent crash damage.  

 

If I ever find that article, I'll post it.  

 

[john aston]

I still watch modern F1 and even look forward to it. I miss some of the old tracks and find the new ones very same-ey, I wish the formula was looser to allow some difference, but it’s still racing, just different. One thing I do know is that for the last 45 years+ people have been bemoaning the lack of overtaking and how things aren’t as good as they were.
The only thing I am sad about is that at the Formula 1 level it seems unpopular to enjoy the sport as a sport and it is somehow essential to embrace the myopic tribalism of football to be ‘a fan’. Some say the rot set in at Brands Hatch 1976, it certainly did at Silverstone 1987…

  I agree completely .I remember making my only trip to Imola in 1987 and getting into conversation with the locals in fractured Italian and English. They were amazed we we weren't here for Nigel Mansell(pre Il Leone days ) but that we  liked the red  machines too. I was at Brands in 76 and it was feverish and  unpleasant . And by the 90s -Jeez - Our Noige was Saint George incarnate , thanks to The Sun throwing its weight behind him. One of his more knuckle dragging fans was near us one GP  , screaming obscenities and flicking two fingers at Senna every damned lap. Where is 'The Right Crowd and No Crowding' when you need it  ? 

 

I loathe the tribalism which has infected the sport and which dominates social media . Nobody seems to accept that some of us old farts just , y'know, want a good race ? 

Edited by john aston, 26 November 2023 - 06:58.

[dmj]

One of main reasons why I’m attracted to motorsport is that it used to be relatively free of fans’ bias. It still is, compared to most other sports, but the difference isn’t so big anymore. For me, there is also a bonus of not having any Croatian drivers competing at highest levels, so I’m not inclined towards anyone just due to stupid national reasons. I tried to follow that when watching other sports but still it is hard for me to watch, say, a football match of Croatia versus anyone without cheering for my national team, even when they play unattractive and opponent is actually better.

In motorsport I still have no problem acknowledging the performances of drivers, disregarding my actual opinions about them. For years I really disliked Max – but I definitely enjoy watching superior performances he can produce at this moment, when he is at his peak. I also dislike guys like Ocon or Stroll but still vote for them as DOTD if I think they deserve it. And, yes, even with strong preference for old days, I still do enjoy watching modern races. And definitely know that they are able to produce magic beyond what could be described by simple words – for that just have to remember the shudder in my back earlier this year when I was at a WRC special stage and watched Rovanpera’s drive to a particular hairpin.

[Michael Ferner]

Well, I guess "there's no accounting for taste"   , though I do struggle to understand what people see in modern F1, and what it perhaps was that originally captured their imagination. We're all different, and thankfully so, which means that everybody has his own reasons for attraction (thinking about it, 'reason' is probably the wrong word!). What I can understand, though, is that it's sometimes difficult to let go - I didn't watch at all for more than twenty years, but there was still enough familiarity with the subject that I can project an image of the sport I once liked and see enough similarities in today's F1 to get sucked in again, even though I'm having a miserable time watching. This weekend was the first for many months during which I didn't even think once of the ongoing Grand Prix, only realizing late last night that "Oh, wasn't there a race this morning?", and googling for a short race recap (which I watched and almost immediately forgot about again  I think Verstappen won, yes? ). It's good that winter break's up, which gives me a chance to get it out of my system, and hopefully this time completely! 

[Doug Nye]

This entire thread seems like an extended preamble to one of those threads or themes falling under the heading 'So When Did You Lose Interest?'.  

 

During my imminently 60 years involved within 'the' sport, such debates have probably surfaced at regular intervals six or seven (or maybe eight) times...  

 

Perhaps this should be raised in a separate thread but I guess the question prompted by Michael's musings thus far is: so, when did you lose interest?  Or as we optimists might put it, so how's your level of interest...in current motor sport?  Is it holding up, or evaporating - or indeed no longer existent?

 

DCN

[flatlandsman]

I too fail to see the appeal of the modern iteration of F1, but it remains immensely popular largely it seems recently because of a tv show, which shows the kind of audience demographic and lack of real action that the sport is able to hold. I failed to see how F1 was hard to grasp and had many ways of finding out news and gossip when I gave a damn, seems I was in the minority!

 

But as I have said lots of times I must be in the wrong as many others seem perfectly happy to not only watch but dole over vastly over egged sums of money to attend live, I struggle to see any reason why this is a good thing other than for places Silverrstone who are profiting immensely, but as I say I must be in the wrong.  I feel no sadness at this, only confusion!!

 

Comparing drivers from era far apart is utterly futile. Saying blokes who smoked etc would struggle now, of course they would not DO THOSE things now would they!  A driver with talent would stand out in any era, hence a Fabgio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost etc would always get to the top.

 

The skills needed vary, in my opinion they are less now, but that is just my opinion, modern drivers are far fitter, have more mental capacity, but are also spoon fed more, treated like babies more, and expect more for less. 

[PCC]

When I was following the sport fanatically as a boy, I used to wonder at the start of each season which of my heroes would be dead by the end of it. Not whether any would be, but which ones would be. It was a certainty. As most on this board know.

 

I imagine new F1 fans would look at that, and wonder what on earth we ever saw in the sport - and what on earth was wrong with us.

Edited by PCC, 28 November 2023 - 00:20.

[Gabrci]

Who is this random South African and how dare he question the authority of this thread by saying silly things like "[Verstappen] is better than anyone who ran in my era"??

[cpbell]

  I agree completely .I remember making my only trip to Imola in 1987 and getting into conversation with the locals in fractured Italian and English. They were amazed we we weren't here for Nigel Mansell(pre Il Leone days ) but that we  liked the red  machines too. I was at Brands in 76 and it was feverish and  unpleasant . And by the 90s -Jeez - Our Noige was Saint George incarnate , thanks to The Sun throwing its weight behind him. One of his more knuckle dragging fans was near us one GP  , screaming obscenities and flicking two fingers at Senna every damned lap. Where is 'The Right Crowd and No Crowding' when you need it  ? 

 

I loathe the tribalism which has infected the sport and which dominates social media . Nobody seems to accept that some of us old farts just , y'know, want a good race ? 

This is one of the worst aspects of modern F1.

[Zmeej]

As opposed to when dear old Dottorino Ottorino could pootle around the Nurburgring at road-car speeds and be a World Championship F1 driver?  Or when Fangio could pick up cheap wins by bursting his car but hopping into a benighted team-mate's?  Or when Goux could win a GP ahead of a banker and an engineer with a crippled engine because there was nobody else there?  And that's just F1 - I haven't got to Herman the Turtle or Flyin' Phil Caliva.

 

It's not the driving standards - this is the age-old thing of drivers doing what they can get away with if it is permitted.  No doubt had there been a 30 second penalty for Verstappen at the first corner he would not have done it.  It is not the driving standards at an all-time low, but their enforcement.  Once upon a time the enforcement was the Grim Reaper; then it was stewards with teeth giving penalties; now it is a patchwork of stewards unfit for the job but who will do the political job imposed on them.