128 replies to this topic

[jals99]

1. Verstappen

2. Alonso

3. Leclerc

4. Hamilton

5. Norris

6. Albon

7. Sainz

8. Piastri

9. Russel

10. Gasly

11. Tsunoda

12. Ocon

13. Lawson

14. Hulkenberg

15. Perez

16. Stroll

17. Bottas

18. Zhou

19. Ricciardo

20. Magnussen

21. Sargeant

22/ De Vries

[Viceroy]

1.Verstappen
2. Alonso
3. Norris

4. Hamilton
5. Leclerc
6. Sainz

7. Albon

8. Piastri
9. Gasly
10.Lawson

[Laptom]

1. Verstappen, what he showed in the first half of the season was quite magical. Car was great, but we never had so many changing conditions the the first races and he still didn't put a foot wrong.

2. Alonso, ,magical and fun to watch, expecially the first half of the season. AM lost a bit of mojo, but Alonso was always on the top

3. Norris, great 2nd half of the season. I think the combination of Norris and Piastri is really working well.

4. Albon, not the best car, but he showed some real magic in my opinion

5. Hamilton, not a great season start, but showed in the 2nd hald why he is #1. Still a lot of small mistakes and accidents in my believe

6. Sainz, yes he has not the outright speed of Lec, but he has much more overview and pure race craft in my opinion. Plus he challenge the team, something Lec miss

7. Piastri, Great rookie season and a great mom ;-). 

8. Lec, perhaps the fastest on single lap. The car was in my opinion much better than what Lec and Sai showed this year. Still need to figure out tyre management and loose the silly mistakes

9. Hulkenberg, same story as Lec. Fast on single lap, but the tyre management is minimal. Yes the car is bad, but...

10. Russell

11 Gasly

12 Tsunoda

 

Others

[Victor]

1 Verstappen

 

I am not writing the names of the other nine drivers, as I do not have enough blank space to separate Verstappen from the second driver, which would in any case be Alonso.

Please note: I am not at all a Verstappen fan, just someone really impressed with his achievements this year.

[thefinalapex]

1. Verstappen
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton
4. Leclerc
5. Norris
6. Piastri
7. Albon
8. Sainz
9. Russell
10. Gasly

[CSF]

1. Max Verstappen

 

2. Fernando Alonso

3. Lewis Hamilton

4. Lando Norris

5. Alex Albon

6. Charles Leclerc

7. Carlos Sainz

8. Oscar Piastri

9. George Russell 

10. Yuki Tsunoda 

 

 

It wasn't a great year for drivers out performing their car, or that feels like its the perception at any rate. 

[F1Frog]

Now that 40 people have posted at least a top ten in this thread, here is a combined ranking of everyone, adding up using the real scoring system.

 

1. Max Verstappen 993

2. Fernando Alonso 623

3. Lewis Hamilton 564

4. Lando Norris 519

5. Charles Leclerc 453

6. Carlos Sainz 339

7. Alexander Albon 189

8. Oscar Piastri 187

9. George Russell 155

10. Pierre Gasly 44

11. Yuki Tsunoda 29

12. Nico Hulkenberg 20

13. Esteban Ocon 16

14. Liam Lawson 2

 

So that is the general consensus. Zmeej is responsible for Max Verstappen just missing the perfect 1000. I personally disagree with Russell being below Piastri and Albon, as I think he just looks less impressive because he is teammate to one of the greatest ever, and still trust that the brilliant driver of 2020 and 2021 is still there. Maybe both are flattering the Mercedes cars. Esteban Ocon also seems too far off Pierre Gasly, but I think this is probably a case of Gasly just sneaking into many top tens, with Ocon just missing out, when most people rate them very similarly.

 

Another interesting thing to note is that rankings seemed kind of grouped. There were four consecutive Leclerc 2nd, then four Alonso 2nd, later three Norris 2nd, later three Hamilton 2nd, then ending with seven Alonso 2nd in a row. Coincidence, or are people heavily influenced by what they have most recently seen?

[eab]

Another interesting thing to note is that rankings seemed kind of grouped. There were four consecutive Leclerc 2nd, then four Alonso 2nd, later three Norris 2nd, later three Hamilton 2nd, then ending with seven Alonso 2nd in a row. Coincidence, or are people heavily influenced by what they have most recently seen?

Asking the question is kinda answering it at the same time    Instant recency bias.

[messy]

The Race did their list and Leclerc was second, which I really don’t get unless it’s just pure recency bias because he finished the season so well. I think our list is better.

Russell being so low is a strange one. He just made so many mistakes, I think. His pace relative to Hamilton was in the same ballpark as where it was last year, plus he finished the season well. But last year, even if Hamilton had stronger underlying speed, Russell seemed to be the one who brought home the result, and I really don’t remember much of that in 2023 at all which, over a 23 race season or whatever, is a bit odd. When he had the chance like in Singapore, he blew it quite embarrassingly. Hamilton was both the one with the better underlying speed as per 2022 but he was also the one who looked every inch the experienced campaigner getting the results, so George just looked ineffective.

For me I think Albon and Piastri absolutely deserve to be above him, maybe even Gasly too. Because I think if you wrote a few sentences about the season of all three of those as per above, it would be more heavily weighted on the positive than Russell’s.

Edited by messy, 10 December 2023 - 11:46.

[DW46]

Now that 40 people have posted at least a top ten in this thread, here is a combined ranking of everyone, adding up using the real scoring system.

1. Max Verstappen 993
2. Fernando Alonso 623
3. Lewis Hamilton 564
4. Lando Norris 519
5. Charles Leclerc 453
6. Carlos Sainz 339
7. Alexander Albon 189
8. Oscar Piastri 187
9. George Russell 155
10. Pierre Gasly 44
11. Yuki Tsunoda 29
12. Nico Hulkenberg 20
13. Esteban Ocon 16
14. Liam Lawson 2

So that is the general consensus. Zmeej is responsible for Max Verstappen just missing the perfect 1000. I personally disagree with Russell being below Piastri and Albon, as I think he just looks less impressive because he is teammate to one of the greatest ever, and still trust that the brilliant driver of 2020 and 2021 is still there. Maybe both are flattering the Mercedes cars. Esteban Ocon also seems too far off Pierre Gasly, but I think this is probably a case of Gasly just sneaking into many top tens, with Ocon just missing out, when most people rate them very similarly.

Another interesting thing to note is that rankings seemed kind of grouped. There were four consecutive Leclerc 2nd, then four Alonso 2nd, later three Norris 2nd, later three Hamilton 2nd, then ending with seven Alonso 2nd in a row. Coincidence, or are people heavily influenced by what they have most recently seen?

Passes the eye test

[1player]

1. Max Verstappen 993
2. Fernando Alonso 623
3. Lewis Hamilton 564
4. Lando Norris 519
5. Charles Leclerc 453
6. Carlos Sainz 339
7. Alexander Albon 189
8. Oscar Piastri 187
9. George Russell 155
10. Pierre Gasly 44
11. Yuki Tsunoda 29
12. Nico Hulkenberg 20
13. Esteban Ocon 16
14. Liam Lawson 2

Hard to argue with this ranking, except Max not having full marks.

I've seen some dubious scoring in this thread, but as a hivemind we are quite sensible

[Astandahl]

The Race did their list and Leclerc was second, which I really don’t get unless it’s just pure recency bias because he finished the season so well. I think our list is better.

Russell being so low is a strange one. He just made so many mistakes, I think. His pace relative to Hamilton was in the same ballpark as where it was last year, plus he finished the season well. But last year, even if Hamilton had stronger underlying speed, Russell seemed to be the one who brought home the result, and I really don’t remember much of that in 2023 at all which, over a 23 race season or whatever, is a bit odd. When he had the chance like in Singapore, he blew it quite embarrassingly. Hamilton was both the one with the better underlying speed as per 2022 but he was also the one who looked every inch the experienced campaigner getting the results, so George just looked ineffective.

For me I think Albon and Piastri absolutely deserve to be above him, maybe even Gasly too. Because I think if you wrote a few sentences about the season of all three of those as per above, it would be more heavily weighted on the positive than Russell’s.

He was third, behind Max and Alonso.

[messy]

Ah yeah you're right, I think maybe it was that Edd Straw and Mark Hughes both placed him second? I remember being surprised. I'd rank Alonso, Norris and Lewis ahead. I don't think Leclerc was up to the standard of 2022 even if he maybe made fewer mistakes.

[eab]

Passes the eye test

You're sure? Quick mental addition gives me 4133 points where only 4040 should be possible 

[Astandahl]

Ah yeah you're right, I think maybe it was that Edd Straw and Mark Hughes both placed him second? I remember being surprised. I'd rank Alonso, Norris and Lewis ahead. I don't think Leclerc was up to the standard of 2022 even if he maybe made fewer mistakes.

Of course he was not. The car Ferrari made was pretty much his kryptonite.

 

I wouldn't rank Norris ahead because he also made quite a lot of mistakes here and there, without having comparable highs to Leclerc, like Baku, Las Vegas and Abu Dhabi.

 

Moreover, Leclerc was clearly the driver with the worst "luck" this year:

 

- DNF from P3 in Bahrain

- 10 grid penalty after qualifying P2 in Jeddah (a masterclass)

- 3 grid penalty after qualifying P3 in Monaco (another masterclass, considering the setup in FP3 was completely ****ed up)

- DSQ in Austin

- DNS after qualifying P2 in Brazil (another masterclass)

 

 

Edit:

 

Edited by Astandahl, 10 December 2023 - 18:02.

[DW46]

You're sure? Quick mental addition gives me 4133 points where only 4040 should be possible

I meant the order 😂

[eab]

I thought so, hence the ' ;)', 

[RainyAfterlifeDaylight]

1. Fernando Alonso

2. Me

 

 

 

3. Max Verstappen

 

4. Charles Leclerc

 

5. Lando Norris

 

6. Lewis Hamilton

 

7. George Russell

 

8. Alex Albon

 

9. Pierre Gasly

 

10. Carlos Sainz

[messy]

Of course he was not. The car Ferrari made was pretty much his kryptonite.
 
I wouldn't rank Norris ahead because he also made quite a lot of mistakes here and there, without having comparable highs to Leclerc, like Baku, Las Vegas and Abu Dhabi.
 
Moreover, Leclerc was clearly the driver with the worst "luck" this year:
 
- DNF from P3 in Bahrain
- 10 grid penalty after qualifying P2 in Jeddah (a masterclass)
- 3 grid penalty after qualifying P3 in Monaco (another masterclass, considering the setup in FP3 was completely ****ed up)
- DSQ in Austin
- DNS after qualifying P2 in Brazil (another masterclass)
 
 
Edit:
 

Norris’ average is massively skewed by the McLaren being a straight up piece of crap until Austria. I get the argument about him making mistakes especially in Q3 with the pressure on, but if there’s one person I remember giving Max a genuine run for his money in a straight fight in the second half of the season, it’s Lando. In the first half it’s Alonso. Leclerc had quite a long period looking out of sorts getting beaten by Sainz. It’s been a funny season though, because hardly anyone has sustained top form through the whole season, except the obvious one. There’s a genuine argument for a lot of drivers being #2, and I can see the argument for Charles even if he wouldn’t be my pick.

[eab]

Hard to argue with this ranking, except Max not having full marks.

I've seen some dubious scoring in this thread, but as a hivemind we are quite sensible

I think it's remarkable/telling/dubious?? that somebody who's comfortably outscored 20 out of the 21 other drivers irl, in this hivemind

 

is absent in the top-14,

gets beaten by a rookie who didn't even do a quarter of the season,

doesn't even feature once in the top-10 of any individual within the hivemind and thus, remained completely pointless,

yet at the same time, apparently, serves as a yardstick to (argue to) grant the only driver that did outscore him, full marks.

[Astandahl]

Norris’ average is massively skewed by the McLaren being a straight up piece of crap until Austria. I get the argument about him making mistakes especially in Q3 with the pressure on, but if there’s one person I remember giving Max a genuine run for his money in a straight fight in the second half of the season, it’s Lando. In the first half it’s Alonso. Leclerc had quite a long period looking out of sorts getting beaten by Sainz. It’s been a funny season though, because hardly anyone has sustained top form through the whole season, except the obvious one. There’s a genuine argument for a lot of drivers being #2, and I can see the argument for Charles even if he wouldn’t be my pick.

The only one who pushed Max for real has been Charles in Vegas during the first stint (outside of course Perez in Jeddah and Baku). As a matter of fact, Leclerc is the only driver that overtook Max on a stint with the same strategy.

I agree that after Max every driver had a mix of good and bad moments. Alo probably was the most consistent, but is not easy to rate his performance as Stroll is one of the worst driver in F1 modern era.

[Organic]

1 Verstappen
-
2 Alonso
-
3 Lando Norris
4 Lewis Hamilton
5 Charles Leclerc
-
6 Carlos Sainz
7 Alex Albon
8 Yuki Tsunoda
-
9 Pierre Gasly
10 Oscar Piastri

Lando/Lewis/Leclerc all did well for parts of the year, but also had their weaknesses. Lewis often could suffer with the car seemingly at random. Charles couldn't extract the most when the car was understeering and was overdriving the car leading to eg Zandvoort crash due to unpredictability. Also Leclerc seemed to struggle at times in the wet this year eg Barcelona, Canada, Zandvoort qualis. Lando gets marked down points for bottling it when the pressure was on / a win was possible

Edited by Organic, 10 December 2023 - 21:42.

[Astandahl]

1 Verstappen
-
2 Alonso
-
3 Lando Norris
4 Lewis Hamilton
5 Charles Leclerc
-
6 Carlos Sainz
7 Alex Albon
8 Yuki Tsunoda
-
9 Pierre Gasly
10 Oscar Piastri

Lando/Lewis/Leclerc all did well for parts of the year, but also had their weaknesses. Lewis often could suffer with the car seemingly at random. Charles couldn't extract the most when the car was understeering and was overdriving the car leading to eg Zandvoort crash due to unpredictability. Also Leclerc seemed to struggle at times in the wet this year eg Barcelona, Canada, Zandvoort qualis. Lando gets marked down points for bottling it when the pressure was on / a win was possible

He overpushed in Q3 (which resulted in a crash), but his overall pace was quite good, at least compared to Sainz up to that point (in Q1 he made his best time at the worst possible moment).

Edited by Astandahl, 10 December 2023 - 22:37.

[1player]

I think it's remarkable/telling/dubious?? that somebody who's comfortably outscored 20 out of the 21 other drivers irl, in this hivemind

is absent in the top-14,
gets beaten by a rookie who didn't even do a quarter of the season,
doesn't even feature once in the top-10 of any individual within the hivemind and thus, remained completely pointless,
yet at the same time, apparently, serves as a yardstick to (argue to) grant the only driver that did outscore him, full marks.

There's a beatiful article on the Internet called "the lizardman constant is 4%". Which means that, statistically, if you asked anybody if they are human or a lizard, 4% would choose the latter. Because of insanity, being a troll, or being bored.

So it is well possible that someone might declaim Max not to be the best driver of the season, or Stroll being underrated compared to Alonso. Their opinion can be safely discarded

Edited by 1player, 10 December 2023 - 23:40.

[eab]

There's a beatiful article on the Internet called "the lizardman constant is 4%". Which means that, statistically, if you asked anybody if they are human or a lizard, 4% would choose the latter. Because of insanity, being a troll, or being bored.

So it is well possible that someone might declaim Max not to be the best driver of the season, or Stroll being underrated compared to Alonso. Their opinion can be safely discarded

Quasi-interesting ish you dug up there, but not sure what its supposed relevance is wrt my comment.

 

Oh, I forgot 

[Ali623]

Norris’ average is massively skewed by the McLaren being a straight up piece of crap until Austria. I get the argument about him making mistakes especially in Q3 with the pressure on, but if there’s one person I remember giving Max a genuine run for his money in a straight fight in the second half of the season, it’s Lando. In the first half it’s Alonso. Leclerc had quite a long period looking out of sorts getting beaten by Sainz. It’s been a funny season though, because hardly anyone has sustained top form through the whole season, except the obvious one. There’s a genuine argument for a lot of drivers being #2, and I can see the argument for Charles even if he wouldn’t be my pick.

 

When did this happen? He had a great opportunity to give Max a proper fight in Qatar where McLaren looked every bit as fast, if not faster than the Red Bull if he hadn't messed up qualifying.

 

Also the McLaren wasn't a 'piece of crap' until Austria. They were a shambles in Bahrain but certainly a more than capable points-challenger after that. For example, finishing P17 in Saudi and Spain were his own doing.

 

If anything the only team that gave Max any sort of a fight in the second half of the season, it was Ferrari with Sainz in Italy and Leclerc in Las Vegas. (Hamilton in COTA too, albeit with an illegal car)

[Speedometer]

1 Verstappen
-
2 Alonso
-
3 Lando Norris
4 Lewis Hamilton
5 Charles Leclerc
-
6 Carlos Sainz
7 Alex Albon
8 Yuki Tsunoda
-
9 Pierre Gasly
10 Oscar Piastri

Lando/Lewis/Leclerc all did well for parts of the year, but also had their weaknesses. Lewis often could suffer with the car seemingly at random. Charles couldn't extract the most when the car was understeering and was overdriving the car leading to eg Zandvoort crash due to unpredictability. Also Leclerc seemed to struggle at times in the wet this year eg Barcelona, Canada, Zandvoort qualis. Lando gets marked down points for bottling it when the pressure was on / a win was possible

 

 

True, but the same could be said of your number 2 choice.  He had some pretty horrendous races (e.g. Spain, Singapore), made quite a few mistakes and struggled with spins. Was anonymous for a fair chunk when AM struggled for pace.  Just curious as to why the weaknesses of your number 2 choice never got mentioned or gets a free pass?

Edited by Speedometer, 11 December 2023 - 14:03.

[messy]

When did this happen? He had a great opportunity to give Max a proper fight in Qatar where McLaren looked every bit as fast, if not faster than the Red Bull if he hadn't messed up qualifying.
 
Also the McLaren wasn't a 'piece of crap' until Austria. They were a shambles in Bahrain but certainly a more than capable points-challenger after that. For example, finishing P17 in Saudi and Spain were his own doing.
 
If anything the only team that gave Max any sort of a fight in the second half of the season, it was Ferrari with Sainz in Italy and Leclerc in Las Vegas. (Hamilton in COTA too, albeit with an illegal car)

Silverstone and Brazil immediately come to mind in terms of Lando taking it to Max, albeit only for a while. Leclerc did similar later in the season, but Norris got six second places. Agree to disagree I think, because something tells me it’s not worth going any deeper on this, it’s just differing opinions. McLaren made a big, big step from Austria. That car was never a podium contender until that point, therefore never going to get anywhere near Max.

I think Leclerc had a decent season. For me Lando was better.

[Anonymouse]

1. Max Verstappen 993

2. Fernando Alonso 623

3. Lewis Hamilton 564

4. Lando Norris 519

5. Charles Leclerc 453

6. Carlos Sainz 339

7. Alexander Albon 189

8. Oscar Piastri 187

9. George Russell 155

10. Pierre Gasly 44

11. Yuki Tsunoda 29

12. Nico Hulkenberg 20

13. Esteban Ocon 16

14. Liam Lawson 2

 

That was my list on page 1 except with 6/7 (Sai/Alb) swapped, 9/10 (Rus/Gas) swapped and Piastri dragged down to behind Ocon.

 

Still don't understand how Piastri can be so high, unless everyone is grading on a curve, which is a very subjective judgment I wouldn't want to make. Piastri scored a smaller percentage of Norris' points than Perez did of Verstappen's and the race pace difference between the two McLarens was way too much at times. The easiest and most important point of comparison for every driver is their teammate and Oscar was outmatched by Norris for too much of the season to be in my top 10. He will be good in the future, I would think, but he wasn't that good this season.