8376 replies to this topic

[Anderis]

noikeee, on 03 Dec 2023 - 11:52, said:

I sort of agree, but the counterpoint is by having everyone in the same series you can compare the drivers better. Also it's easier for fans to understand the junior formula ladder as it is.

If a fan couldn't bother enough with feeder series to understand the junior formula ladder from around 2010, then why would they deserve or need to understand it in the first place? It was not more difficult to understand than, let's say, tyre strategies in F1. Those who wanted to understand, understood. Those who didn't, most likely didn't need that information in their lives.

[eibyyz]

Radoye, on 01 Dec 2023 - 20:32, said:

Who?

(besides, Andretti will not come in with two rookies, might even be Grosjean 

 

Mind: Blown.

 

(If GRO drops his lawsuit, then maybe.)

[eibyyz]

DW46, on 02 Dec 2023 - 12:37, said:

.
Andretti - Herta/Ocon.

 

I've been thinking about that Irish guy--Steve O'Conn as well.  He's a steady hand.  

 

Herta's got to win the IndyCar title, and that's a shi tton of pressure on both him and the team.  I could see a move like BRM>Ferrari 1974, where OCO and SAR both move to AG.

[PayasYouRace]

Anderis, on 04 Dec 2023 - 00:47, said:

If a fan couldn't bother enough with feeder series to understand the junior formula ladder from around 2010, then why would they deserve or need to understand it in the first place? It was not more difficult to understand than, let's say, tyre strategies in F1. Those who wanted to understand, understood. Those who didn't, most likely didn't need that information in their lives.

It probably says more about my transition to adult life and my amount of spare time, but I probably understand the post-2010 junior ladder less than anything that came before.

[PayasYouRace]

BobbyRicky, on 02 Dec 2023 - 12:05, said:

The problem for someone like Doohan is that he wont be an upgrade over Gasly and Ocon if those two wants to continue with Alpine. Both are still quite young as well.

At least it would differentiate the formless French blob that is currently Oconsly (or is it Gaslon?).

[PayasYouRace]

Hans V, on 02 Dec 2023 - 13:13, said:

Wow, 14 out 20 drivers out of contract after next season, gonna be the silliest season ever!

I’d love it if they all changed teams or moved on to something else.

[ANF]

I think the 2025 line-up will be one of these combinations:

Red Bull: Verstappen / Ricciardo / Tsunoda / Lawson / Pérez / Albon / Sainz

Mercedes: Hamilton / Russell

Ferrari: Leclerc / Ocon / Sainz / Alonso / Albon

McLaren: Norris / Piastri

Aston Martin: Stroll / Alonso / Sainz / Pérez / Ricciardo / Drugovich

Alpine: Ocon / Gasly / Martins / Ricciardo / Pourchaire / Leclerc / Sainz

Williams: Albon / Drugovich / Sainz / Sargeant / Colapinto / Bearman / Lawson / Zhou / Vesti / Gasly / Antonelli / O'Sullivan

[Faenza]: Lawson / Tsunoda / Ricciardo / Hadjar

[Hinwil]: Hülkenberg / Pourchaire / Sainz / Ocon / Bottas / Pérez / Albon / Zhou / Gasly

Haas: Bearman / Hülkenberg / Magnussen / Pourchaire / Pérez / Gasly / Zhou

[jensfan09]

ANF, on 04 Dec 2023 - 13:08, said:

I think the 2025 line-up will be one of these combinations:

Red Bull: Verstappen / Ricciardo / Tsunoda / Lawson / Pérez / Albon / Sainz

Mercedes: Hamilton / Russell

Ferrari: Leclerc / Ocon / Sainz / Alonso / Albon

McLaren: Norris / Piastri

Aston Martin: Stroll / Alonso / Sainz / Pérez / Ricciardo / Drugovich

Alpine: Ocon / Gasly / Martins / Ricciardo / Pourchaire / Leclerc / Sainz

Williams: Albon / Drugovich / Sainz / Sargeant / Colapinto / Bearman / Lawson / Zhou / Vesti / Gasly / Antonelli / O'Sullivan

[Faenza]: Lawson / Tsunoda / Ricciardo / Hadjar

[Hinwil]: Hülkenberg / Pourchaire / Sainz / Ocon / Bottas / Pérez / Albon / Zhou / Gasly

Haas: Bearman / Hülkenberg / Magnussen / Pourchaire / Pérez / Gasly / Zhou

Really keeping your options open there aren't you? lol

[MoebiusPT]

These constraints around F1 drivers performing in other competiions prevents scenarios like the recomendation that James Hunt made over Gilles Villeneuve to McLaren, since he got a good whooping when the canadian out-performed him in Formula Atlantic events.

 

Granted that in the old days, drivers were more interested in other competitions to further their salary, as of today, this is simply not possible.

 

The opposite actually happens, with lesser testing time, teams are interested in the tried and tested, those drivers that can churn laps and don't damage the car. Is a Bottas more valuable to an Audi/Andretti in their setup years, than a Vesti/Antonelli/Pourchaire?

 

Eventually F1 got it self into a grandfathering situation, without a proper way for rookies to showcase their value. This whole "the end class of 2023 will be the same as the starting class of 2024, never seen before" is such an example.

 

Maybe a good solution would be to change the F1 sprints into a rookie show. One car per team, one rookie per team. Have them prove their value in setup, raceform, and then might we have a clearer view of who is up to the task or not.

[KWSN - DSM]

ANF, on 04 Dec 2023 - 13:08, said:

I think the 2025 line-up will be one of these combinations:

 

 

Good way to list, as jensfan09 say a lot of options, but I think yours rather than a listing can be a discussion piece

[KWSN - DSM]

So disuccing

 

ANF, on 04 Dec 2023 - 13:08, said:

I think the 2025 line-up will be one of these combinations:

Red Bull: Verstappen / Ricciardo / Tsunoda / Lawson / Pérez / Albon / Sainz - I can not see either of them being hired to team with Verstappen 

Mercedes: Hamilton / Russell

Ferrari: Leclerc / Ocon / Sainz / Alonso / Albon - I can not see either of them at, or back at Ferrari

McLaren: Norris / Piastri

Aston Martin: Stroll / Alonso / Sainz / Pérez / Ricciardo / Drugovich - I can not see either of them at Aston Martin

Alpine: Ocon / Gasly / Martins / Ricciardo / Pourchaire / Leclerc / Sainz Can not see Ricciardo or Leclerc at Alpine, and have a very hard time seeing Sainz end there

Williams: Albon / Drugovich / Sainz / Sargeant / Colapinto / Bearman / Lawson / Zhou / Vesti / Gasly / Antonelli / O'Sullivan

[Faenza]: Lawson / Tsunoda / Ricciardo / Hadjar

[Hinwil]: Hülkenberg / Pourchaire / Sainz / Ocon / Bottas / Pérez / Albon / Zhou / Gasly - Can not see Perez there, and think Zhou will have run his course.

Haas: Bearman / Hülkenberg / Magnussen / Pourchaire / Pérez / Gasly / Zhou - Can not see Perez there

 

Still leave a good number of agreeing with you, in regard Perez I think once he is not extended with Red Bull he will retire.

[JvsKVB77]

MoebiusPT, on 04 Dec 2023 - 13:47, said:

 

 

Maybe a good solution would be to change the F1 sprints into a rookie show. One car per team, one rookie per team. Have them prove their value in setup, raceform, and then might we have a clearer view of who is up to the task or not.

Without practice, without real setting (if rules stay same as now even in parc ferme condition with settings for another driver). Ten cars with young drivers - spectators will be delighted. And without any references we will see only cars strength. Young drivers had enough championships to prove themself. 

[southernstars]

ANF, on 04 Dec 2023 - 13:08, said:

I think the 2025 line-up will be one of these combinations:

Red Bull: Verstappen / Ricciardo / Tsunoda / Lawson / Pérez / Albon / Sainz - I don't think either Albon or Sainz would return to RB, especially given the rumoured clashes between J*s and Sainz Sr. Tsunoda doesn't have the temperament for RB and Perez would have to make a huge form turnaround to be extended. I also have my doubts that Lawson would be put into RB as a rookie.

Mercedes: Hamilton / Russell

Ferrari: Leclerc / Ocon / Sainz / Alonso / Albon - I can't see Alonso returning to Ferrari, or Ocon being poached. Albon might find he doesn't want to go to the political hellfire that is Ferrari.

McLaren: Norris / Piastri

Aston Martin: Stroll / Alonso / Sainz / Pérez / Ricciardo / Drugovich - I think Stroll gets politely moved onto the Hypercar project in 25 as an "honourable" exit from F1. If Perez leaves RB it will be to retirement. I can't see Danny moving away from RB - he has already said he wants to end his career in that family. Drugovich would be a maybe if no-one better was available.

Alpine: Ocon / Gasly / Martins / Ricciardo / Pourchaire / Leclerc / Sainz - Sorry, but if you're not including Doohan then Martins doesn't get a run. He might be fast but he is dangerous - don't forget how he nearly wiped out a bunch of marshals in Monaco this year. Pourchaire is aligned with the Sauber academy and they may not be willing to lend him out to a rival team. I definitely can't see either Leclerc or Sainz here. Ricciardo also out because of the same reasons as above - however it should be noted that now that Rossi and Szafnauer are gone they may be more open to taking him back.

Williams: Albon / Drugovich / Sainz / Sargeant / Colapinto / Bearman / Lawson / Zhou / Vesti / Gasly / Antonelli / O'Sullivan - Immediate nos to Colapinto, Bearman, Antonelli and O'Sullivan. Three of those would have to have a Piastri-like F2 rookie season to bust down the door, and Bearman is Ferrari Academy. Lawson has already been guaranteed a seat by RB for 25, there's no way he'd get lent out. Gasly maybe if he gets pushed out of Alpine. I think Zhou would not be picked up again. Vesti was beaten at every turn by Sargeant in F2/F3 so given he is not even a Williams Academy driver they may not see it as an improvement. Likewise Drugovich.

[Faenza]: Lawson / Tsunoda / Ricciardo / Hadjar - Now, maybe I'm mixing him up with Hauger, but Hadjar has not been all that impressive and I can't see him turning that around in just one year of F2. Lawson/Tsunoda is most likely here.

[Hinwil]: Hülkenberg / Pourchaire / Sainz / Ocon / Bottas / Pérez / Albon / Zhou / Gasly - Pourchaire is probably likely, if he impresses in Super Formula, as he is their junior. I know there has been some talk of Sainz already. I think at the end of his next contract Hulkenberg probably calls it quits. He isn't good enough to have a Hamilton/Alonso longevity. Ocon seems unlikely. Bottas appears to be growing disinterested so may not continue. As noted above I can't see Perez continuing once his RB contract ends (or even before). Albon would not want to move from Williams to an arguably worse team. Gasly only if he was pushed out of Alpine.

Haas: Bearman / Hülkenberg / Magnussen / Pourchaire / Pérez / Gasly / Zhou - First of all, nobody should be wishing this seat on a rookie, so no to Bearman and Pourchaire, for their own sake. Above notes still apply for Perez. Gasly is a no because can you imagine him and Steiner arguing? I think Magnussen will be done by the end of next year. Zhou could be a maybe with the right bucket of cash.

Edited by southernstars, 04 December 2023 - 15:15.

[danmills]

Albon to Ferrari is a very interesting thought as a solid replacement should Sainz leave. I think RB's active ties would prevent it ever happening. 

 

I also think Sainz is sort of making a name for himself as a decent rear gunner, can see him eventually end up back at McLaren either with Norris or Piastri, whoever Mclaren lose first.

 

But beyond 2025...

Edited by danmills, 04 December 2023 - 17:17.

[ARTGP]

Is there really a big difference in potential between Albon and Sainz? So much that it's worth the hassle of losing a year of continuity within the team? 

 

I'm not sure what Ferrari is trying to "fix" but from the current grid, when you try and find a driver better than Sainz, you quickly end up in rapid team disassembly territory. Drivers that are so close that you clash on the track, often.  No one talked much about it but Russell and Hamilton was not a very clever pairing this year, and the car wasn't even good enough for a title yet. Imagine if it was. They had so many on track incidents that screwed the team over (Spain, Spa, Singapore, Qatar, Japan). Not even Ocon-Gasly went that poorly. 

 

 

Sainz and Leclerc has been very mild by comparison. The only big deal was Monza, and you can forgive any Ferrari driver for that and both still managed to finish the race.

Edited by ARTGP, 04 December 2023 - 17:24.

[danmills]

I think Sainz has more tenacity and fire in him to voice his frustrations. Like Russell, nice guy but there's still that spark of aggression and spiciness towards team mates.

 

Albon is kinda Bottas inert gas style for team dynamics. A plug and play, gets on with whatever is thrown. Mums love them.

Edited by danmills, 04 December 2023 - 17:26.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Don’t want Albon anywhere near a Ferrari seat. Bang average at absolute best.

Ferrari should go all out for Norris if Sainz is surplus to requirements (no idea why he would be though).

[danmills]

Ferrari need someone steady though, two roosters is a disaster. 

 

Oddly, I think that's exactly what Leclerc needs to set him back on fire. Except it will probably also destroy him. The guy is like glass. Spectacular but oh so fragile.

 

He will end up like Alesi if he stays put.

Edited by danmills, 04 December 2023 - 17:50.

[VamosVamos]

southernstars, on 04 Dec 2023 - 15:15, said:

ANF, on 04 Dec 2023 - 13:08, said:

Alpine: Ocon / Gasly / Martins / Ricciardo / Pourchaire / Leclerc / Sainz - Sorry, but if you're not including Doohan then Martins doesn't get a run. He might be fast but he is dangerous - don't forget how he nearly wiped out a bunch of marshals in Monaco this year.

With respect, nobody in the F1 world cares about him getting a penalty in Monaco. So long as Martins is amongst the contenders for the F2 title next year he’s the first in line should Ocon/Gasly leave. Even if he doesn’t contend the title he is probably still the pick if either were to leave.

Edited by VamosVamos, 04 December 2023 - 18:43.

[Beri]

VamosVamos, on 04 Dec 2023 - 18:42, said:

With respect, nobody in the F1 world cares about him getting a penalty in Monaco. So long as Martins is amongst the contenders for the F2 title next year he’s the first in line should Ocon/Gasly leave. Even if he doesn’t contend the title he is probably still the pick if either were to leave.

 

Maldonado has proven this before.

[wj_gibson]

Given how Sainz performed at Singapore, why get rid of him? If nothing else, he’s clearly a very capable and intelligent driver who is proven to score highly when required. 

Edited by wj_gibson, 04 December 2023 - 22:10.

[F1Frog]

Leclerc and Sainz is the perfect lineup for Ferrari

[KWSN - DSM]

F1Frog, on 04 Dec 2023 - 22:12, said:

Leclerc and Sainz is the perfect lineup for Ferrari

 

Eventually one of them will have to move to another team to be top dog, which by looks of it has to Sainz - if not he will become a Coulthard, Berger, Barichello, Bottas clone.

[Beri]

Why does he? Sainz is in many aspects a better driver than any of the ones you've mentioned. It doesn't make him worse if he stays at Ferrari.

[noikeee]

Nah, he's a Barrichello with Schumacher attitude.

[Dolph]

KWSN - DSM, on 04 Dec 2023 - 22:40, said:

Eventually one of them will have to move to another team to be top dog, which by looks of it has to Sainz - if not he will become a Coulthard, Berger, Barichello, Bottas clone.

He already is.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 04 Dec 2023 - 22:53, said:

Why does he? Sainz is in many aspects a better driver than any of the ones you've mentioned. It doesn't make him worse if he stays at Ferrari.

 

Because as I say "...move to another team to be top dog..."

[KWSN - DSM]

Dolph, on 05 Dec 2023 - 06:36, said:

He already is.

 

Shhhh don't tell.

[Beri]

KWSN - DSM, on 05 Dec 2023 - 09:44, said:

Because as I say "...move to another team to be top dog..."

 

I reckon if he has seasons like the one in 2023, no one is doubting him in any case. He was on top of Leclerc on many occassions and certainly didnt show himself as a lacklustrous driver that, with all due respect, Barrichello or Coulthard were at times. 

Sainz has shown this year that he is actually one of the better drivers on the grid at this moment. And his capacity to think his way through the races is something to behold. His strategy in Singapore, to hold off Norris enough to keep him inside his DRS and to make sure he could cover Norris with his straightline speed advantage so he didnt have to worry about the faster Mercedes drivers, was a thing of true brilliance. 

 

So if anything, he is top dog already. Only issue being that he is placed next to Ferrari's crown prince. But right now, he makes life quite easy for himself by beating this crown prince more than once. And he is most certainly far from being a driver that has said lacklustre performances that were a trait with Barrichello and Coulthard.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 05 Dec 2023 - 09:53, said:

I reckon if he has seasons like the one in 2023, no one is doubting him in any case. He was on top of Leclerc on many occassions and certainly didnt show himself as a lacklustrous driver that, with all due respect, Barrichello or Coulthard were at times. 

Sainz has shown this year that he is actually one of the better drivers on the grid at this moment. And his capacity to think his way through the races is something to behold. His strategy in Singapore, to hold off Norris enough to keep him inside his DRS and to make sure he could cover Norris with his straightline speed advantage so he didnt have to worry about the faster Mercedes drivers, was a thing of true brilliance. 

 

So if anything, he is top dog already. Only issue being that he is placed next to Ferrari's crown prince. But right now, he makes life quite easy for himself by beating this crown prince more than once. And he is most certainly far from being a driver that has said lacklustre performances that were a trait with Barrichello and Coulthard.

 

Sainz is not top dog at Ferrari.

 

I am not saying Sainz is clearly the lessor driver, I am say both he and Leclerc wants to be the lead driver in a team, rightly or wrongly Leclerc is the favorite of Ferrari upper management, if Sainz wants to become World Champion, he needs to be the lead driver, it does not seem he will become that at Ferrari.

[Beri]

KWSN - DSM, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:14, said:

Sainz is not top dog at Ferrari.

 

I am not saying Sainz is clearly the lessor driver, I am say both he and Leclerc wants to be the lead driver in a team, rightly or wrongly Leclerc is the favorite of Ferrari upper management, if Sainz wants to become World Champion, he needs to be the lead driver, it does not seem he will become that at Ferrari.

 

How did that work out for Rosberg again? Just saying.

[pacificquay]

Leclerc is apparently signing a new deal with Ferrari until 2029 - good luck to him but it just reinforces his status as Jean Alesi in a slightly faster car

[danmills]

Weren't there rumours floating early last year that Ferrari was a bit divided? Half were fully behind Leclerc, the other half fed up of his consistent errors and were totally behind Sainz leading the team as the favourite? Except the higher powers were the ones backing Leclerc.

 

I do rate Sainz the better overall package, even if Leclerc has flashes of brilliance and outright speed, you have to roll a six to get that version of him and nobody rolls dice that well.

Edited by danmills, 05 December 2023 - 10:23.

[Anderis]

KWSN - DSM, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:14, said:

if Sainz wants to become World Champion, he needs to be the lead driver, it does not seem he will become that at Ferrari.

Out of 3 seasons in Ferrari so far, he outscored Leclerc in 2021 and was really close to doing it again in 2023, so I would say his chances to become a WDC is much better at Ferrari than if he was a lead driver of a team less capable than Ferrari.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:17, said:

How did that work out for Rosberg again? Just saying.

 

Do you get that I am not making either of the drivers better than the other? 

[KWSN - DSM]

Anderis, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:30, said:

Out of 3 seasons in Ferrari so far, he outscored Leclerc in 2021 and was really close to doing it again in 2023, so I would say his chances to become a WDC is much better at Ferrari than if he was a lead driver of a team less capable than Ferrari.

 

Reading the tealeaves, Leclerc liking it or not IS the preferred driver by Ferrari, I am not looking at results, I am looking at and seeing how if Sainz wants to be the preferred driver he needs to be in another team than Ferrari.

 

No need to list wins, poles, points, fastest lap, most overtakes that is NOT what I am talking about.

 

On a straight forward pragmatic level it makes sense for Sainz to go somewhere else.

[trodebac]

I have already written this information in the Ferrari post. Ferrari only offers Sainz a one-year contract extension because he wants Norris for 2025. Sainz will not accept this offer. He will fulfill his contract, and in 2025, he will replace Checo at Red Bull with sponsorship from Santander. They are already negotiating, and everything seems to be going well. The source is me. 

[Beri]

KWSN - DSM, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:35, said:

Do you get that I am not making either of the drivers better than the other?

I am merely stating that Mercedes had a likewise situation. Having one driver that everyone thinks is the "top dog" and one driver that is the apparent number 2 driver. Only for said "number 2" to actually beat the top dog. If anything; I can see Sainz as such a driver who could upset the ranks at Ferrari. And I certainly don't see him as the lesser one.

[ARTGP]

trodebac, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:46, said:

I have already written this information in the Ferrari post. Ferrari only offers Sainz a one-year contract extension because he wants Norris for 2025. Sainz will not accept this offer. He will fulfill his contract, and in 2025, he will replace Checo at Red Bull with sponsorship from Santander. They are already negotiating, and everything seems to be going well. The source is me. 

 

Ferrari's loss, RB's gain. 

[danmills]

Would Mclaren entertain a straight up swap for Sainz with Norris if Piastri has a spectacular upward year in 2025?

 

Leclerc and Norris, two of the most promising nearly men on the grid both with lots to prove.

 

If only Ferrari would get the car right.

 

I believe more in Mclaren getting back than Ferrari. Wonder how patient Norris is what with Piastri nipping at his heels.

Edited by danmills, 05 December 2023 - 14:57.

[Beri]

At this moment I cant see Piastri beating Norris over an entire season.

[pacificquay]

McLaren will be getting Lando signed to a multi year contract at some point I'd imagine - no rush as he has two years left

[ARTGP]

pacificquay, on 05 Dec 2023 - 14:57, said:

McLaren will be getting Lando signed to a multi year contract at some point I'd imagine - no rush as he has two years left

 

Supposedly Ferrari are talking with Norris about 2025 (although maybe Norris is using this as leverage for a better Mclaren contract). 

Edited by ARTGP, 05 December 2023 - 15:04.

[1player]

ARTGP, on 05 Dec 2023 - 15:03, said:

Supposedly Ferrari are talking with Norris about 2025 (although maybe Norris is using this as leverage for a better Mclaren contract).

Teams are talking with every driver. No way in hell Norris considers Ferrari. He'd rather go to Red Bull where they have made no secret of wanting him, and still he prefers to stay at McLaren (and rightfully so, I'd say)

[pacificquay]

ARTGP, on 05 Dec 2023 - 15:03, said:

Supposedly Ferrari are talking with Norris about 2025 (although maybe Norris is using this as leverage for a better Mclaren contract). 

 

He's under contract at McLaren for 2025

[Benchulo]

trodebac, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:46, said:

I have already written this information in the Ferrari post. Ferrari only offers Sainz a one-year contract extension because he wants Norris for 2025. Sainz will not accept this offer. He will fulfill his contract, and in 2025, he will replace Checo at Red Bull with sponsorship from Santander. They are already negotiating, and everything seems to be going well. The source is me.

I can understand Sainz going to Red Bull. Seems quite possible. Good for Sainz and good for RBR. But why would Norris leave for Ferrari, when both teams are more or less fighting for the same positions? McLaren is on the upward trajectory, and he has the full support of the team.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 05 Dec 2023 - 10:51, said:

I am merely stating that Mercedes had a likewise situation. Having one driver that everyone thinks is the "top dog" and one driver that is the apparent number 2 driver. Only for said "number 2" to actually beat the top dog. If anything; I can see Sainz as such a driver who could upset the ranks at Ferrari. And I certainly don't see him as the lesser one.

 

Well I still think you are not getting my point, which I am saying as a Rosberg fan who do not particularly like Hamilton.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 05 Dec 2023 - 14:56, said:

At this moment I cant see Piastri beating Norris over an entire season.

 

I continue to see Norris as at worst the 4th best driver in the world, I do not think Piastri will ever beat him if they are teamed together - with the caveat that some seasons allow it to happen, which does not mean Piastri is suddenly equal to Norris.

[HistoryFan]

I expect

 

=> Lawson to Red Bull

=> Pérez to Aston Martin

[ARTGP]

pacificquay, on 05 Dec 2023 - 15:19, said:

He's under contract at McLaren for 2025

 

Yes but we don't know if the 2025 year is water-tight, or full of clauses on both sides. Where Norris drives in 2025 is probably contingent on Mclaren's upward trajectory continuing in '24. 

Edited by ARTGP, 05 December 2023 - 15:37.