348 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

I think we are closer to lose one manufacture than gaining a 3rd manufacture. It's very sad. What has to happen to have a third manufacture?

 

https://racer.com/20...ts-are-slashed/

 

[Wuzak]

If Honda withdraw and no other manufacturer steps up, will Chevrolet be content to supply the whole field?

 

Or would it be better to align the engine rules with another series?

 

LMDh power units would be too big and bulky, F1 engines would be too expensive, but what about Super Formula?

 

If they had to go for a single engine supplier, and Chevrolet wasn't interested, could something like the Mecachrome V6 used in F2 be an option?

[B Squared]

It was unofficially "Formula Cosworth" for a while in the 1980s and managed to survive; they are likely to do so again. Not that I like what is happening. 

[EvilPhil II]

I suspect this is simply leverage to stop the Hybrid rules being implemented. They have just been postponed again. 

 

However, for such a great series it does seem insane that they have a 10 year old chassis and only two manufacturers supporting the series. 

[Sterzo]

However, for such a great series it does seem insane that they have a 10 year old chassis and only two manufacturers supporting the series. 

Or perhaps the lesson is, you only need a 10 year old chassis and two manufacturers for a great series.

[EvilPhil II]

Or perhaps the lesson is, you only need a 10 year old chassis and two manufacturers for a great series.

 

They have a great opportunity to capture some of that magic back from the 1980s and 1990s when the sound of the cars was sweet and musical.  We dont need them to adopt hybrid, particularly if they arent going to use it as an R&D ground and it will be spec. We already have Formula Dull 

[ensign14]

I think we are closer to lose one manufacture than gaining a 3rd manufacture. It's very sad. What has to happen to have a third manufacture?

 

https://racer.com/20...ts-are-slashed/

Well, there would have been three chassis manufacturers had the Genetic Fluke gone with Lola (established racing car manufacturer) rather than Falcon (made a hat) when opening the auction.

[Risil]

That's a worry. But I suppose the "unless" makes it clear that Honda and Indycar are negotiating.

[juicy sushi]

They have a great opportunity to capture some of that magic back from the 1980s and 1990s when the sound of the cars was sweet and musical. We dont need them to adopt hybrid, particularly if they arent going to use it as an R&D ground and it will be spec. We already have Formula Dull

Yet Honda would leave without the hybrids. And GM would too. And with their exit, the budgets collapse as the money is gone and all the teams and drivers go as well.

[Beri]

Haven't read myself into this. But in short my question is; is the possible Honda withdrawal perhaps related to the imminent hybrid era?

[red stick]

Honda wanted hybrids.  And since it has carried IndyCar before, for slightly over half a decade, I think it just wants to remind IndyCar that the decision-making, or lack of, has potential consequences.  I see it as trying to concentrate the mind of IndyCar leadership instead of endorsing, through public silence, further drift.  Not that the not-for-public-consumption, behind-the-scenes discussions leading up to this press release aren't likely fascinating.  

[Silverstone96]

Honda aren’t gone but it’s clear they aren’t happy with direction and leadership.

RP buying indycar seemed like a saviour at the time, he probably was but the series is regressing under him now.

[Risil]

Honda aren’t gone but it’s clear they aren’t happy with direction and leadership.

RP buying indycar seemed like a saviour at the time, he probably was but the series is regressing under him now.

The world is continuing to change. What would the Hulman-George family have done differently?

[PayasYouRace]

Honda aren’t gone but it’s clear they aren’t happy with direction and leadership.

RP buying indycar seemed like a saviour at the time, he probably was but the series is regressing under him now.

Or is he limiting the regression?

[EvilPhil II]

Obviously F1 having 3 races in the US will not have helped at all. But another bigger factor will be the hugely successful Hypercars and IMSA series. They sound amazing. They look exciting. They have star drivers and 2 crown races. 

[loki]

I suspect this is simply leverage to stop the Hybrid rules being implemented. They have just been postponed again. 

 

However, for such a great series it does seem insane that they have a 10 year old chassis and only two manufacturers supporting the series. 

It’s an 11 year old tub with three iterations of aero.  This aero config is about five years old.  The issue with the tub is how they attached the DEFLECTOR SHEILD and the result of unbalancing the car. I’d bet there will be mount point modifications to improve handling based on what’s been learned.

[loki]

The issue with losing Honda is not so much technology and supply as it is marketing and activation.  Plenty of people can make race engines.  Not too many have the resources and are willing to activate and promote on that scale.

[FLB]

The issue with losing Honda is not so much technology and supply as it is marketing and activation.  Plenty of people can make race engines.  Not too many have the resources and are willing to activate and promote on that scale.

I think part of it is already gone. For instance, watching the current Honda commercials on TV, it's F1 (Red Bull) that's featured. Not a single shot of an IndyCar. Also, I think Takuma Sato was commentating the recent Honda Celebration. There were F1 and Super Formula cars, but I didn't see an IndyCar, which was telling IMHO.

[PayasYouRace]

Coming from comments in the general thread, I wonder if there’s traction (no pun intended) in adopting the LMH/LMDh drivetrain regulations into a new Indycar chassis? Not going as far as one suggestion of making Indycar a GTP formula, but LMH/LMDh seems to be providing a good set of rules that manufacturers like and provides reliable, hybrid machinery that can run for a long time at high demand.

[Wuzak]

Coming from comments in the general thread, I wonder if there’s traction (no pun intended) in adopting the LMH/LMDh drivetrain regulations into a new Indycar chassis? Not going as far as one suggestion of making Indycar a GTP formula, but LMH/LMDh seems to be providing a good set of rules that manufacturers like and provides reliable, hybrid machinery that can run for a long time at high demand.

 

Would certainly need a new chassis, since the hybrid motor works on the front wheels.

 

LMDh has a standard ERS, while LMh allows the manufacturers to make their own. LMDh would be a cheaper option.

 

But the engine and ERS may be too heavy for Indycar.

 

Why is there a delay in the introduction of the hybrid power units?

[loki]

Coming from comments in the general thread, I wonder if there’s traction (no pun intended) in adopting the LMH/LMDh drivetrain regulations into a new Indycar chassis? Not going as far as one suggestion of making Indycar a GTP formula, but LMH/LMDh seems to be providing a good set of rules that manufacturers like and provides reliable, hybrid machinery that can run for a long time at high demand.

I reckon that would depend on who owns the IP and would they be willing to share.  Can someone make them available for mil a year lease for the season including the 500 and give the one off 500 guys prorated cost packages.  That’s what Honda’s issue is in that the return isn’t enough for the effort and cost.

[maximilian]

Get rid of manufacturers, and just use some cheap screamer of a non-aspirated engine, same for all.  It's the sound everybody wants anyways, and the series won't be slave to these damn OEMs and their limited engine leases anymore.  As far as the fans go, nobody gives a crap about engine championships or the hybrid aspect anyways.

[aportinga]

I think we are closer to lose one manufacture than gaining a 3rd manufacture. It's very sad. What has to happen to have a third manufacture?

 

https://racer.com/20...ts-are-slashed/

 

On average I would say that the amount of eyes on F1 in the States is similar to those for all of Indycar. Since Honda are looking to maybe stay in F1, why invest in Indycar when you are already getting similar exposure to a much younger fan base which has more money to spend?

Edited by aportinga, 28 December 2023 - 15:41.

[aportinga]

Get rid of manufacturers, and just use some cheap screamer of a non-aspirated engine, same for all.  It's the sound everybody wants anyways, and the series won't be slave to these damn OEMs and their limited engine leases anymore.  As far as the fans go, nobody gives a crap about engine championships or the hybrid aspect anyways.

 

Put them all in dirt cars and run on short ovals with a tripple crown of Long Beach, Road America and the Indy 500 where the teams can run what ever the series has mandated from the past 20 years. Let the engineers tinker with the parts and find the speed at those 3 races.

 

Make a DTS show of it - back stories, personal stories, conflicts and so on...

Edited by aportinga, 11 December 2023 - 00:18.

[red stick]

Sigh.

[juicy sushi]

Would certainly need a new chassis, since the hybrid motor works on the front wheels.

LMDh has a standard ERS, while LMh allows the manufacturers to make their own. LMDh would be a cheaper option.

But the engine and ERS may be too heavy for Indycar.

Why is there a delay in the introduction of the hybrid power units?

The LMDh powertrain has the hybrid motor on the rear axle. Only LMH allows it on the front axle. But the Dallara chassis has spec common mounting points for the current 2.2 litre v6. A new tub would be required that had mounting points flexible enough for the different engines.

[juicy sushi]

Put them all in dirt cars and run on short ovals with a tripple crown of Long Beach, Road America and the Indy 500 where the teams can run what ever the series has mandated from the past 20 years. Let the engineers tinker with the parts and find the speed at those 3 races.

Make a DTS show of it - back stories, personal stories, conflicts and so on...

So, do a series that currently has no audience, and magically find money for a three-race series of cars that no longer have the expensive support they require, and also find more magic money to do an entire TV series on top of it?

[PayasYouRace]

So, do a series that currently has no audience, and magically find money for a three-race series of cars that no longer have the expensive support they require, and also find more magic money to do an entire TV series on top of it?

and blackjack, and hookers.

[PayasYouRace]

The LMDh powertrain has the hybrid motor on the rear axle. Only LMH allows it on the front axle. But the Dallara chassis has spec common mounting points for the current 2.2 litre v6. A new tub would be required that had mounting points flexible enough for the different engines.

Seeing as a new chassis would be desirable, to better integrate the halo and screen, lowering the centre of gravity, and just incorporate generally improvements from the past decade or so, you could then engineer it to be compatible with the various LMDh power trains.

[Risil]

Remind me what the LMDh power train specs are? Is there balance of performance to keep the worse design ideas competitive with the good ones?

[Wuzak]

Remind me what the LMDh power train specs are? Is there balance of performance to keep the worse design ideas competitive with the good ones?

 

5.2 Engine

5.2.1 Definition

Engine design is free except for the following restrictions:

• Only Petrol 4 stroke engines are permitted

• Air springs are allowed

• VVT is allowed

• ICE speed is limited to 10,000 rpm

• The sound emitted from each car must not exceed 110 dbA during all on-track sessions. The measurement will be made at 15 meters from the edge of the track.

An OE Manufacturer branded engine, approved by ACO/IMSA and complying with Powertrain Performance Criteria is permitted in one of the four permitted Constructor’s chassis (the cars) only when used in conjunction with OE Manufacturer branded and stylized bodywork.

5.2.2 Parameters

a. Maximum engine length of 640 mm (from rear face of the survival cell to the front mounting face of the bellhousing)

b. Maximum engine length measured at flywheel of 640 mm (from rear face of the survival cell to the rear face of the flywheel).

c. Minimum crankshaft centre line height from reference plane is 106 mm.

d. The minimum engine weight is 180 kg (what is included in the weight is listed in a table)

 

Power performance is a maximum of 500kW @ 95% of maximum engine speed, with the power curve defined from 55% to 102.5% maximum engine rpm in 2.5% steps.

 

For balance of performance there are additional curves, with maximum power of 480kW or 520kW.

 

This is total power combined MGUK and ICE.

[PayasYouRace]

Can’t believe it would be too difficult to design a single seater chassis to go in front of that.

[aportinga]

So, do a series that currently has no audience, and magically find money for a three-race series of cars that no longer have the expensive support they require, and also find more magic money to do an entire TV series on top of it?

 

I may not have been serious.

[Henri Greuter]

 

5.2 Engine

5.2.1 Definition

Engine design is free except for the following restrictions:

• Only Petrol 4 stroke engines are permitted

• Air springs are allowed

• VVT is allowed

• ICE speed is limited to 10,000 rpm

• The sound emitted from each car must not exceed 110 dbA during all on-track sessions. The measurement will be made at 15 meters from the edge of the track.

An OE Manufacturer branded engine, approved by ACO/IMSA and complying with Powertrain Performance Criteria is permitted in one of the four permitted Constructor’s chassis (the cars) only when used in conjunction with OE Manufacturer branded and stylized bodywork.

5.2.2 Parameters

a. Maximum engine length of 640 mm (from rear face of the survival cell to the front mounting face of the bellhousing)

b. Maximum engine length measured at flywheel of 640 mm (from rear face of the survival cell to the rear face of the flywheel).

c. Minimum crankshaft centre line height from reference plane is 106 mm.

d. The minimum engine weight is 180 kg (what is included in the weight is listed in a table)

 

Power performance is a maximum of 500kW @ 95% of maximum engine speed, with the power curve defined from 55% to 102.5% maximum engine rpm in 2.5% steps.

 

For balance of performance there are additional curves, with maximum power of 480kW or 520kW.

 

This is total power combined MGUK and ICE.

 

 

 

I suppose that if an engine formula that would allow the use of such a formula as described above, it will require one extra regulation for the designe of the monocoque with regards to the engine.

The rear side of the monocoque will be prescribed to be wide, large and high enough in order to shade every possible engine option. If that is not done then it would exclude the use of any engine that is among the larger ones regarding frontal area and in particular the height and withd of the cylinder heads. Certtainly for Indy you want an engine as small as possible in order to make bodiwork etc. as tight as possible in order to reduce frontal area and drag.

 

With twoseater sportscars this is much less of an issue. But in fairly recent Indy Indy history we have seen how Dale Coyne used an atmo Chevy engine in 1988 at Indy but had to use a March 86C chassis because any later chassis was not big enough for fitting a large atmo stock block properly. Current engines can be built more compact of course but still, it could become an issue for the larger V8 blocks so popular nowadays

[PayasYouRace]

Henri you have a remarkable ability to make simple engineering design constraints sound like the end of the world.

Designing a chassis rear bulkhead to fit any of the available engines isn’t a problem, especially when it’s a spec chassis and bodywork.

[aportinga]

If Honda leaves I see 2 options.

 

1. New or heavily modified chassis to accept some sort of WEC engine - which would require a deal with multiple manufactures.

2. Penske still owns Ilmor I believe? Essentially he could provide power for Honda teams and perhaps get a deal with another manufacture to badge the engines which may include some activation participation.

 

Some issues would still exist - such as a lack of "other" investments that Honda has provided and the loss of potentially 2 decent races.

Edited by aportinga, 28 December 2023 - 15:42.

[Wuzak]

Henri you have a remarkable ability to make simple engineering design constraints sound like the end of the world.

Designing a chassis rear bulkhead to fit any of the available engines isn’t a problem, especially when it’s a spec chassis and bodywork.

 

LMDh is a spec chassis.

[Wuzak]

If Honda leaves I see 2 options.

 

1. New or heavily modified chassis to accept some sort of WEC engine - which woul require a deal with multiple manufactures.

2. Penske still owns Ilmor I believe? Essentially he could provide power for Honda teams and perhaps get a deal with another manufacture to badge the engines which may include some activation participation.

 

Some issues would still exist - such as a lack of "other" investments that Honda has provided and the loss of potentially 2 decent races.

 

Don't Ilmor make the Chevy engines?

[aportinga]

Don't Ilmor make the Chevy engines?

 

Yes they switched over to Chevy but the initially worked with Honda and Mercedes before that.

[juicy sushi]

Ilmor can supply the motors, but the cost of the motors vs the budgets available to teams in a Honda-less Indycar are the issue.  No Honda means the GM spending probably also dries up, as there is little incentive to maintain the same commitment, which removes a significant chunk of revenue for many teams, as well as the person signing the paycheck for a few drivers.  Indy will still be the Indy 500, but it won't be the same series and won't have the same names involved.  Some people might try and claim that Indycar doesn't need them and can instead double down on "what fans want" but you first have to find the fans.  And in the modern world, someone has to pay for that product to be offered up to the eyeballs, with no guarantees that those eyeballs will actually be there.  

 

It may be only a perception issue, and this may be just a public statement to back up certain things said in private to series management to try and get a bit more of a solid plan in place to provide a forward vision, but things can change very quickly, and it would be very, very stupid to think that this isn't a very big problem for Indycar.

[PayasYouRace]

LMDh is a spec chassis.

Great. So is Indycar.

[Wuzak]

Great. So is Indycar.

 

Sorry, I meant to say that the LMDh chassis can adapt to multiple engines, so an Indycar chassis could too.

[lustigson]

I'm surprised that no third manufacturer is willing to cough up $10-20 million a year for a chance to win the Indy 500.

 

Sounds like a bargain, right? What's keeping any German or Korean brands from competing?

[juicy sushi]

It's not $10-20 million, it's currently about $40 million to develop, build and maintain the motors, plus mandatory marketing spend, and some driver/team subsidies.  So, it's not the cost of an Indycar team, it's more the cost of an entire LMH program for Le Mans, or 1/3 of an F1 budget for a backmarker.  Now, a manufacturer might find that the ROI for Indy is about equal or much greater than Le Mans, but not 1/3 of the ROI for F1.  And might also find it easier to get a board of a global company to give the other 2/3 of an F1 budget than to get 1/3 of that for a regional series that has a hard time justifying itself in that region, let alone internationally.

[LolaB0860]

I'm surprised that no third manufacturer is willing to cough up $10-20 million a year for a chance to win the Indy 500.

 

Sounds like a bargain, right? What's keeping any German or Korean brands from competing?

 

A) Indycar (including 500) gets mostly terrible coverage outside United States

 

B) If you ignore the PR press releases that no-one reads, the primary marketing is all about drivers and not manufacturers

 

C) You are essentially forced to supply 10-20 engines because of the lack of other manufacturers

 

D) It's almost impossible to distinguish between spec Dallaras carrying engine Xs from spec Dallaras carrying engine Ys

Edited by LolaB0860, 11 December 2023 - 16:22.

[red stick]

This is where I remind the multitude that Acura's LMDh engine is a 2.4 liter twin-turbo V6, or essentially what they were going to use in IndyCar before the 2.2L engine was retained.  So it's not out of the realm of possibly to use IMSA regs . . .

[lustigson]

It's not $10-20 million, it's currently about $40 million to develop, build and maintain the motors, plus mandatory marketing spend, and some driver/team subsidies.  So, it's not the cost of an Indycar team, it's more the cost of an entire LMH program for Le Mans, or 1/3 of an F1 budget for a backmarker.  Now, a manufacturer might find that the ROI for Indy is about equal or much greater than Le Mans, but not 1/3 of the ROI for F1.  And might also find it easier to get a board of a global company to give the other 2/3 of an F1 budget than to get 1/3 of that for a regional series that has a hard time justifying itself in that region, let alone internationally.

 

I get what you're saying about total costs, but I thought the $10-20m was the amount that Honda and Chevrolet each cover apart from the payments by the teams for the engine leases. I tend to be wrong now and again, of course. 

[juicy sushi]

I get what you're saying about total costs, but I thought the $10-20m was the amount that Honda and Chevrolet each cover apart from the payments by the teams for the engine leases. I tend to be wrong now and again, of course. 

It might be $10-20m net, but I am unsure if that math would work for a new manufacturer not yet getting lease payments until after they've done the R&D and built the motors.  Also, with some subsidies being involved as payments to teams, that number might not reflect an accurate measure since the lease revenue might be smaller than generally thought.

[juicy sushi]

This is where I remind the multitude that Acura's LMDh engine is a 2.4 liter twin-turbo V6, or essentially what they were going to use in IndyCar before the 2.2L engine was retained.  So it's not out of the realm of possibly to use IMSA regs . . .

I am not sure what HRC North America (formerly your friendly, neighbourhood HPD) are able to do in terms of building and maintaining a pool of them, but the intent was to do that 24 months ago, so it's theoretically possible.  But then we're back to the need for a new chassis to handle the different IMSA motors.  And if we're at that point, given the time frames involved, I go back to my heretical suggestion that it's probably easier to just do single-driver GTP sprint races, and let the 4 LMDh chassis manufacturers try to sell those cars, rather than rushing Dallara to save the series with a really fat-bodied new Indycar chassis.  But again, I know it's heresy to suggest this one.

[Henri Greuter]

LMDh is a spec chassis.

 

And has way less problems with the different sizes of allowable engines. Indycar has seen the effects of that.

Apart from the example I gave, another great classic year in which the size of engine mattered was 1992.

 

All Lolas built in 1992 are types T9200, but there were three differnt variets of it!

 

- the standard version that accomodated the first generation Ilmor-Chevy engines, since that year known as the type Ilmor 265A. (and if desired contemporaty engines like the Cosworths and Judds)

- the bespoke version for the Buick V6 stock blocks.

- the version for the way smaller Ford Cosworth XB engine. That version had a lower and more narrow fuel tank and lower bonnet and had a much smaller frontal area. That enabled these XB-powered cars to keep up with the way more powerful Buick powered cars.

 

There were no rules regarding frontal area of the rear bulkhead, hence why Lola made use of that option to make a bespoke version for that engine as well.

 

With the current spec formula, and any follow-up, should Indycar wanting to adopt the IMSA engine formulas, then I think it is unavoidable that, in order to enable every current ly already used IMSA option to prescribe the size and shape of the rear bulkhead to enable this. But also to make any aero benefits pissible due to the kind of engine chosen impossible. Which could lead us to cars that have a lot in common with the first generation IRL cars of 97-99.

Anyway, we well likely never see anything like those lowline sleek CART projectiles of the years '92-99.

 

 

But Indycar using multiple kind of engine configurations?  We only have to remember the Turbine years and most of all, 1994.

BoP within Indycar? whow.....