413 replies to this topic

[Risil]

We've had some discussion in the McLaren thread recently about whether Oscar Piastri's feat of finishing first at the Saturday Sprint Spectacular in Qatar last year qualifies him as a Formula 1 race winner.

 

Obviously he's not a Grand Prix winner. And obviously he has finished first in a race where all that season's F1 entrants took part.

 

But in your own private mental records of F1 and the universe, is he an F1 race winner? Do you welcome him into that (virtual) fraternity with open arms and macho kisses? Or do you bar the door and say sorry mate, come back when you've won a race that means something?

 

I need to know. Don't ask me why. But I do.

[eab]

[JvsKVB77]

Sprints are not real. So Oscar does not win f1 race so far.

[Dolph]

Race winner, yes. But not Grand Prix winner. Grand Prix win beats sprint win

[Muppetmad]

I hate that we have to have this discussion in the first place.

[Sterzo]

Race winner, yes. But not Grand Prix winner. Grand Prix win beats sprint win

Question answered. Thread closed.

[mclarensmps]

Race winner, yes. But not Grand Prix winner. Grand Prix win beats sprint win

 

This is how I see it too. Sprints can go suck an egg!

[CPR]

It's a rather frustrating topic. I'm happy Oscar won the Sprint but certainly when he wins his first Grand Prix with the podium ceremony and everything it'll feel very different and a much greater achievement. Would be nice if it comes this year...

[MattK9]

For clarity, this thread isnt about Piastri at all.

 

The poll should be are sprint races classed as a race win. To which the answer is clearly no. It is a sprint race win.

 

Would you go through all GP races and see who was leading at 1/3 race distance and call them winners too?

[Gravelngrass]

Grand Prix win beats sprint win

Not necessarily, depends on the nature of the win. I’ve seen few laps by drivers that are more worthy than a GP win…

[FLB]

Not quite, but almost. Same as a non-WDC race winner. An F1 winner, but not a Grand-Prix winner.

 

EX: Chris Amon.

[Collombin]

Would you go through all GP races and see who was leading at 1/3 race distance and call them winners too?

That's slightly different though, there have been many very short F1 races. Is Archie Scott Brown not an F1 race winner just because the race was under 20 miles?

With Piastri, if sprint races were still just a method of setting the grid then the answer would be no, but as they are effectively stand alone events I'm tempted to say yes. Could still be persuaded otherwise by upcoming posts though.

[Gravelngrass]

We've had some discussion in the McLaren thread recently about whether Oscar Piastri's feat of finishing first at the Saturday Sprint Spectacular in Qatar last year qualifies him as a Formula 1 race winner.

Obviously he's not a Grand Prix winner. And obviously he has finished first in a race where all that season's F1 entrants took part.

But in your own private mental records of F1 and the universe, is he an F1 race winner? Do you welcome him into that (virtual) fraternity with open arms and macho kisses? Or do you bar the door and say sorry mate, come back when you've won a race that means something?

I need to know. Don't ask me why. But I do.

Maybe your need to know is related to the Piastri vs Norris discussion?

[JvsKVB77]

Race winner, yes. But not Grand Prix winner. Grand Prix win beats sprint win

Technically, there are only one race in f1 weekend. Oscar was first at sprint session. Or Bottas 2021 champion)

[Risil]

Maybe your need to know is related to the Piastri vs Norris discussion?

 

Not in any obvious way. I think the two of them should continue to fight it out.

[MattK9]

That's slightly different though, there have been many very short F1 races. Is Archie Scott Brown not an F1 race winner just because the race was under 20 miles?

With Piastri, if sprint races were still just a method of setting the grid then the answer would be no, but as they are effectively stand alone events I'm tempted to say yes. Could still be persuaded otherwise by upcoming posts though.

 

Archie Scott Brown is not a race winner

[Collombin]

Archie Scott Brown is not a race winner

Oh. What's the threshold then? 25 miles? 100 miles?

[PlatenGlass]

I'm glad you labelled this "Very important poll".

Obviously he objectively won a race of F1 cars so that's a thing. Do I count it as something in my head? It's definitely something. Someone compared it to non-WDC F1 races. They're a different category I'd say, and which is worth more might depend on the specifics of the non-WDC race. Definitely not worth a GP win though but that's not controversial.

But here's a question. I might be wrong but think most people would say that other than winning the championship, more wins is better than higher in the championship. So would anyone count sprint wins in that? Which is better - 2nd in the championship or 3rd with the same number of GP wins but one extra sprint win? I think I'd take 2nd in the championship. But I'd probably take 3rd with an extra GP win.

Edited by PlatenGlass, 12 January 2024 - 15:09.

[Collombin]

Someone compared it to non-WDC F1 races. They're a different category I'd say, and which is worth more might depend on the specifics of the non-WDC race

That's the thing, non-WDC F1 races could be anything from a very localised 8 lapper to a full distance international major race with all the top teams and drivers present. Obviously sprints sit somewhere in the middle.

[Anja]

McLaren might call him a race winner for PR cause technically he might be one, but the stats are clear.

 

 

Edited by Anja, 12 January 2024 - 15:21.

[ensign14]

He won an F1 race, therefore he is an F1 race winner.

[MattK9]

Oh. What's the threshold then? 25 miles? 100 miles?

 

What race are you refering to?

Wiki says he had 1 race at Silverstone in '56 which he retired from after 16 laps. Fangio won after 101 laps

[ensign14]

Not quite, but almost. Same as a non-WDC race winner. An F1 winner, but not a Grand-Prix winner.

 

EX: Chris Amon.

He won the 1971 Argentine Grand Prix. 

[Frood]

Agreed on "yes, he is an F1 race winner, no, he is not a Grand Prix winner". By the same metric, you can say Gordon Smiley and Joe Castellano are also F1 race winners, despite neither ever entering a World Championship Grand Prix.

[red stick]

Why should this be treated any differently than finishing first in a NASCAR Daytona 500 Twin 125 qualifying race? So, no.

[Collombin]

What race are you refering to?
Wiki says he had 1 race at Silverstone in '56 which he retired from after 16 laps. Fangio won after 101 laps

Brands Hatch, 1956. Very much at the short and localised end of the scale, but if anyone deserves the benefit (given the way he was treated and Fangio's opinion of him) then it's him.

[JvsKVB77]

He won an F1 race, therefore he is an F1 race winner.

FIA and F1 does not think that sprint is a race.

Edited by JvsKVB77, 12 January 2024 - 15:40.

[KWSN - DSM]

There should be an option

 

Let's ask TNF if winning a F1 race in a Non grand Prix is a F1 race win

[sheSgoTthElooK]

haha you know the situation when you're at school and fail to answer the question which is asked...

 

I was just thinking of his future. "Do you consider Oscar Piastri a race winner in F1? And I was like, hell yes but seems that wasn't the question here 

 

I didn't read the posting first... but then again... I'm not a Mclaren Fan anymore... 

 

 

[MattK9]

Brands Hatch, 1956. Very much at the short and localised end of the scale, but if anyone deserves the benefit (given the way he was treated and Fangio's opinion of him) then it's him.

 

That was a non-championship event according to wiki. But he did win a race of F1 cars, but is not a F1 winner.

He seems like a interesting character given he lost the fingers on his right hand but could still compete.

[Collombin]

but could still compete.

Primarily just in the UK though because of the disability. A shame, he was very talented indeed.

[Sterzo]

Archie Scott Brown is not a race winner

Then neither is any current F1 driver. A current World Championship Grand Prix is a sprint compared with a GP in his era, which had a minimum duration of three hours.

 

Alternatively, we could recognise that a race can be whatever length the organisers set, and it's still a race. Short race, long race, a race is a race.

[Yamamoto]

No, but I don't consider Carlos Sainz a race winner either so it's possible the reasoning is different.

[H0R]

Man that's really peak off-season smartassery around here. Why don't you simply go out and have a beeer instead?

[Risil]

Man that's really peak off-season smartassery around here. Why don't you simply go out and have a beeer instead?

Are you saying this molehill is not the mountain I've made it out to be

[PayasYouRace]

He won an officially sanctioned race for Formula 1 cars. This shouldn’t even be a debate.

[PayasYouRace]

Agreed on "yes, he is an F1 race winner, no, he is not a Grand Prix winner". By the same metric, you can say Gordon Smiley and Joe Castellano are also F1 race winners, despite neither ever entering a World Championship Grand Prix.

Curious as to which F1 races were won by Gordon Smiley and Joe Castellano.

[Beri]

The Poll says it all. No matter how some avid McLaren and Oscar fans want to see it differently.

And as one of the main instigators of this whole discussion on the McLaren Thread, here are my two cents once more:

He didnt. No matter how you twist and turn, He won a Formula One Sprint Race. Thats not a Formula One race victory. It is a Sprint Race victory, Which counts as much as getting the Fastest Lap award. Else there would have been a podium ceremony with champagne, the anthem and all the shabang.

[Collombin]

Smiley won an Aurora race at Silverstone in 1979 ish.

[JvsKVB77]

He won an officially sanctioned race for Formula 1 cars. This shouldn’t even be a debate.

Little problem is that Formula 1 and FIA does not count this as race) Neither in rules or statistic.

[PlatenGlass]

Smiley won an Aurora race at Silverstone in 1979 ish.

And Castellano won one in 1982.

[Frood]

Curious as to which F1 races were won by Gordon Smiley and Joe Castellano.

 

 

Smiley won an Aurora race at Silverstone in 1979 ish.

 

Collombin is right. Both won in British Formula One.

[PayasYouRace]

Little problem is that Formula 1 and FIA does not count this as race) Neither in rules or statistic.

It’s a race by definition. It’s quite clear they they’re not counting it as a world championship race, and that’s fair enough. But a race is a race.

[PayasYouRace]

Smiley won an Aurora race at Silverstone in 1979 ish.

 

 

And Castellano won one in 1982.

 

 

Collombin is right. Both won in British Formula One.

Nice!

[Sterzo]

And Desiré Wilson is the only woman to have won an F1 race. It was a race, it was for F1 cars, she is a woman.

[Burtros]

Yes - he won a F1 race.

Not a Grand Prix winner though.

[PayasYouRace]

For those of you insistent on being literal with this technicality, I hope you're being consistent and call Dan Ticktum a Grand Prix winner. Macau is not an F1 race but a Grand Prix is a Grand Prix, right?

Language has things like simplifications and commonly used meanings for a reason. For decades everyone knew what a "race win" meant in the F1 context, you didn't have to specify any further. If you want to be that literal all of a sudden it means the term "race winner" is not clear anymore and we should specify full descriptions like "F1 Grand Prix winner" at each step. That's gonna be fun, huh?

I don’t see why not. Grands Prix have not always been for F1 cars, and Macau is quite prestigious. How about when the French or Monaco Grands Prix ran for sports cars.

I think we should be quite specific when talking about world championship F1 races.

[JvsKVB77]

It’s a race by definition. It’s quite clear they they’re not counting it as a world championship race, and that’s fair enough. But a race is a race.

Even not all drivers think, that sprint is a race). But even be a McLaren fan I don't think, team win f1 race last year. It is just first place in one of the session before race.

Edited by JvsKVB77, 12 January 2024 - 17:04.

[Sterzo]

I agree with you that it's about language, Anja. I differ from you when you imply that everyone knows that an F1 race win means only a championship race win. That is the opposite of my understanding, based on uncountable decades of watching, talking with numerous enthusiasts, and reading Autosport and Motor Sport since forever. Just to check I'm not going mad, I've asked someone with a Masters Degree in Linguistics, who confirms she saw Oscar Piastri win a race...

[KLF1F]

It's like being a NASCAR stage winner