413 replies to this topic

[Nathan]

F1 had non-championship Grand Prix held to F1 rules for a couple decades.  I consider Sprints to be like those.  You won a race run to F1 rules, but you didn't win an F1 GP.

Edited by Nathan, 12 January 2024 - 17:23.

[JvsKVB77]

Question for future, if there will be a reverse grid sprint format, does winner of this "race" will be same "race" winner as Piastri?

[Mark521]

I votes "Yes" as I feel it's not fair to Oscar to vote "No" just because I'm not a fan of the Sprint Race format. Love it or hate it, it was a race and he finished first (without any weird circumstances) so that's a "race winner" in my book.

[ensign14]

JvsKVB77, on 12 Jan 2024 - 15:40, said:

FIA and F1 does not think that sprint is a race.

So I am a more successful athlete than Usain Bolt?

[KWSN - DSM]

You win a race in a Grand prix weekend.

You drive a F1 to specification of Grand Prix cars.

You race against the drivers who will compete in the Grand Prix.

There is qualifying for the race.

There are points given and counting towards the World Championship for drivers.

 

Very little here tell me that you have not won a F1 race.

[JvsKVB77]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 17:44, said:

You win a race in a Grand prix weekend.
You drive a F1 to specification of Grand Prix cars.
You race against the drivers who will compete in the Grand Prix.
There is qualifying for the race.
There are points given and counting towards the World Championship for drivers.
 
Very little here tell me that you have not won a F1 race.

So Oscar not only have F1 race win, but F1 Pole position too.

[Beri]

PayasYouRace, on 12 Jan 2024 - 16:40, said:

It’s a race by definition. It’s quite clear they they’re not counting it as a world championship race, and that’s fair enough. But a race is a race.

It's no race. It's an abomination.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Sure he’s won a race. Hasn’t won a Grand Prix though.

[AustinF1]

Will Oscar win a great many races in F1? IMHO the answer is no. Is he currently a race winner? No.

Edited by AustinF1, 12 January 2024 - 18:48.

[KWSN - DSM]

JvsKVB77, on 12 Jan 2024 - 17:54, said:

So Oscar not only have F1 race win, but F1 Pole position too.

 

Depend on how you (as in you JvsKVB77) define Pole position.

[KWSN - DSM]

AustinF1, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:15, said:

Will Oscar winning a great many races in F1? IMHO the answer is no. Is he currently a race winner? No.

 

You are wrong there, we have no idea what will happen in the speculative part.

[KWSN - DSM]

ConsiderAndGo, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:07, said:

Sure he’s won a race. Hasn’t won a Grand Prix though.

 

No a single person have said he did.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:02, said:

It's no race. It's an abomination.

 

Go check the results from the World Championship, contrary to what you think, they are indeed races.

[FirstnameLastname]

ensign14, on 12 Jan 2024 - 15:32, said:

He won an F1 race, therefore he is an F1 race winner.

Even the Journos aren’t allowed to call it a ‘race’

[Beri]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:33, said:

Go check the results from the World Championship, contrary to what you think, they are indeed races.

They are point scoring events. I wouldn't call them races. Because they remain an abomination.

[Risil]

FirstnameLastname, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:34, said:

Even the Journos aren’t allowed to call it a ‘race’

I thought that, but a bit of googling says that even F1.com repeatedly refers to them as "Sprint races".

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:36, said:

They are point scoring events. I wouldn't call them races. Because they remain an abomination.

 

It's difficult to have a discussion when facts are being ignored. Many questions missing in the Poll it seem

 

* No he did not win a race because even though the FIA hand out points for the World Championship I do not like them so should not count.

[JvsKVB77]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:31, said:

Depend on how you (as in you JvsKVB77) define Pole position.

Win Qualy before F1 race. Maybe if sprint is a race, sprint shootout defenetly a qualy)

[NotAPineapple]

who cares

[JvsKVB77]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:33, said:

Go check the results from the World Championship, contrary to what you think, they are indeed races.

https://www.fia.com/...classifications
I can't see 28 races.

[PlatenGlass]

If they're not races, they're one heck of a shared hallucination.

[Beri]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:39, said:

It's difficult to have a discussion when facts are being ignored. Many questions missing in the Poll it seem
 
* No he did not win a race because even though the FIA hand out points for the World Championship I do not like them so should not count.

I credit it as an event. Certainly no Formula One race. Because a Formula One race is a Grand Prix by definition. Not this horrendous brainfart.

[AustinF1]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:32, said:

You are wrong there, we have no idea what will happen in the speculative part.

He's won an F1 Sprint®. Which F1 GP did he win?

[JvsKVB77]

PlatenGlass, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:52, said:

If they're not races, they're one heck of a shared hallucination.

You exactly right) Spoon doesn't exist)

[KWSN - DSM]

JvsKVB77, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:50, said:

https://www.fia.com/...classifications
I can't see 28 races.

 

You are not looking hard enough.

[KWSN - DSM]

JvsKVB77, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:45, said:

Win Qualy before F1 race. Maybe if sprint is a race, sprint shootout defenetly a qualy)

 

So there, you answered your own question.

[KWSN - DSM]

AustinF1, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:54, said:

He's won an F1 Sprint®. Which F1 GP did he win?

 

I and no one else said he won a Grand Prix, we said he won a race in a F1 car, competing against other F1 cars.

[KWSN - DSM]

Beri, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:54, said:

I credit it as an event. Certainly no Formula One race. Because a Formula One race is a Grand Prix by definition. Not this horrendous brainfart.

 

That one you need to explain.

 

What are these then?

 

https://en.wikipedia...mpionship_races

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 12 January 2024 - 19:01.

[Boxerevo]

Race winner but not Grand Prix winner. Thanks Formula 1.    

[AustinF1]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 18:58, said:

I and no one else said he won a Grand Prix, we said he won a race in a F1 car, competing against other F1 cars.

A race? I don't think so. F1 doesn't call the Sprint a race. They call it 'F1 Sprint'. When they talk about "the race", they're referring to the GP. In fact, it seems they go out of their way to not call the Sprint a race, calling it, 'F1 Sprint', 'the Sprint', 'it', a 'dash', etc. I especially like that last sentence. Anytime they refer to a race, they're clearly indicating the GP.

 

EXPLAINED: Everything you need to know about the 2023 F1 Sprint format

 

https://www.formula1...emPKi6pJxH.html

 

Quote

 

Guess what’s back, back again? It’s F1 Sprint

...

 

What is F1 Sprint?

Now in its third season, F1 Sprint is a 100km dash to the chequered flag....

 

Sounds good, when does it take place?

Saturday afternoon. In Baku, it’ll run for 17 laps and take around 30 minutes.

 

What do you get for winning it?

It’s eight points for the winner, descending to one for P8. Both drivers and teams score points for their respective championships.

 

F1 Sprint made its debut at Silverstone in 2021, serving up even more action for fans

Nice. How do you determine the grid for F1 Sprint?

Well, this is where things have changed slightly for 2023.

 

Last year, qualifying determined the grid for F1 Sprint – and the result of that dash created the grid for Sunday’s showpiece Grand Prix.

 

For 2023, there will be two qualifying sessions. The first will still take place on Friday, but that session will determine the grid for Sunday.

 

A second, shorter qualifying session will run on Saturday morning – replacing the second one-hour practice session and set the grid for the Sprint.

 

This will be known as the Sprint Shootout.

 

Baku, Spielberg, Spa (pictured), Lusail, Austin and Interlagos will host the six F1 Sprints in 2023

Ooooh, nice name. Is it the same format as traditional qualifying?

Yes, it sure is – however, each segment is shorter. Q1 will be 12 minutes, Q2 10 minutes and Q3 8 minutes. Each will be separated by 7-minute breaks. New medium tyres are mandatory for Q1 and Q2, and softs, which do not have to be new, must be used for Q3.

 

...

 

With Saturday now essentially being a standalone event – where the Sprint Shootout and F1 Sprint do not impact the Grand Prix – a problem or incident in the Sprint does not compromise the entire weekend, which in theory should encourage drivers to push more in the Sprint.

 

Drivers will be tested during two qualifying sessions under a revised F1 Sprint format this season

I like it. What else is different?

FP2 on a Sprint weekend was widely considered meaningless as all of the big decisions regarding setting up the car had to be done the previous day ahead of qualifying because of parc ferme rules.

 

Drivers didn’t go out much in that session as there was little point in risking the car given the short gap to the F1 Sprint, which last year set the grid for Sunday’s race.

 

The new tweaked format leaves teams with just one hour of practice to gather data, tweak set-ups, understand the tyres and finalise the cars for the race weekend ahead.

 

That should make FP1 – which will take place on Friday, ahead of Grand Prix qualifying – much busier and even more important.

 

And Sunday stays the same?

Correct. Qualifying on Friday will determine the grid for Sunday’s Grand Prix. Sunday will run unchanged.

 

So, Baku hosts the first F1 Sprint of the year. Where else will we see them?

Like Baku, Belgium’s Spa-Francorchamps, Qatar’s Lusail Circuit and Austin’s Circuit of The Americas will get their first taste of F1 Sprint this year.

 

Austria gets its second edition, the Red Bull Ring having played host to the format last year, while Interlagos gets the hat-trick having delivered two stunning spectacles in 2021 and 2022.

 

Anything else I need to know for this weekend?

If you’re wondering how a grid penalty will be applied across F1 Sprint weekends, the process has been set out following Tuesday’s Formula 1 Commission meeting.

 

Any grid penalties incurred in first practice or qualifying will apply to the race; any grid penalties incurred in the Sprint Shootout will apply to the Sprint; while any grid penalties incurred in the Sprint will apply to the race.

Edited by AustinF1, 12 January 2024 - 19:21.

[KWSN - DSM]

So this is a semantics disagreement?

 

Webster tell me below, which is what I and most people think when they watched Piastri winning.

 

pluralraces

1

a

: a competition between people, animals, vehicles, etc., to determine which one is the fastest : a contest of speed

[TomNokoe]

Not even close!

[AustinF1]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 19:22, said:

 

So this is a semantics disagreement?

It seems like that's what the entire thread has been since the very beginning. So if it's about semantics, then boiling it all down to what F1 does and does not call the the Sprint seems appropriately incisive imho.

 

According to F1 itself, an F1 race is a GP, so by that metric, Oscar is not 'a race winner in F1'.

Edited by AustinF1, 12 January 2024 - 19:49.

[markpenske]

I don't expect any not named Max Vestappen to win a race this year, let alone a McLaren driver. Sure, Max will have a race or two with some type of mishap and the other Red Bull or a Ferrari or Mercedes will win.

[KWSN - DSM]

I am not sure I agree on making the political verbiage of the FIA the reason for saying Piastri have not won a race. I watched him win a race in a F1 car, no weird label is going to cause me to say he did not. That may then be me stomping my foot, I do it on much firmer ground than on those who insist he did not win one.

 

I will gracefully, or not as you make take it remove myself from a discussion which is in fact ridiculous. 

[AustinF1]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 19:37, said:

I am not sure I agree on making the political verbiage of the FIA the reason for saying Piastri have not won a race. I watched him win a race in a F1 car, no weird label is going to cause me to say he did not. That may then be me stomping my foot, I do it on much firmer ground than on those who insist he did not win one.

 

I will gracefully, or not as you make take it remove myself from a discussion which is in fact ridiculous. 

FOM, not the FIA. That bit is from F1.com.

[PlatenGlass]

AustinF1, on 12 Jan 2024 - 19:33, said:

It seems like that's what the entire thread has been since the very beginning. So if it's about semantics, then boiling it all down to what F1 does and does not call the the Sprint seems appropriately incisive imho.

 

According to F1, an F1 race is a GP.

 

"Race" is a word in the English language that pre-exists F1. F1 can't tell us what words mean. What Oscar Piastri won was a race, regardless of what F1 want to call it.

[IrvTheSwerve]

This ‘he won an f1 race but not a grand prix’ is such a load of rubbish…brought on by a crappy format.

 

An F1 winner is a winner of a Grand Prix and I will die on that hill.

 

Piastri has zero wins. People may disagree but it will be evident if/when Piastri wins a Grand Prix and everyone will be celebrating as if it’s a first.

[PlatenGlass]

IrvTheSwerve, on 12 Jan 2024 - 19:53, said:

 

Piastri has zero wins.

 

He has zero wins - but that's shorthand for a specific type of win. After all, he's won races outside of F1 as well. He hasn't won a WDC Grand Prix and that's the main thing we count, but to agree on that we don't need to redefine words.

[New Britain]

JvsKVB77, on 12 Jan 2024 - 15:40, said:

FIA and F1 does not think that sprint is a race.

Are those the same people who told us that the 2005 Indianapolis event and 2021 Spa event were 'races'? 

[IrvTheSwerve]

PlatenGlass, on 12 Jan 2024 - 20:12, said:

He has zero wins - but that's shorthand for a specific type of win. After all, he's won races outside of F1 as well. He hasn't won a WDC Grand Prix and that's the main thing we count, but to agree on that we don't need to redefine words.

Well yeah, I obviously mean F1 wins lol.

[AlexPrime]

Yeah

[OvDrone]

KLF1F, on 12 Jan 2024 - 17:16, said:

It's like being a NASCAR stage winner

110%

As much as I like Piastri, he is no Grand Prix Winner yet.

Sprints only add confusion. Here, in MotoGP, anywhere. Just like Alex Marquez last year, he won ‘something’ just not a Grand Prix.

His reputation doesn’t need to suffer from this though. He already is a Champion in so many feeder series and has the pontential for incredible things in the future. Consider me a supporter.

[Bliman]

Offcourse he is a racewinner. Isn't it called a sprint race? What did he win otherwise?

[RedRabbit]

This is where MotoGP took the upper hand on the Sprint idea. It's a race every weekend on a Saturday, that counts as a separate stat to GP wins.

F1 doesn't lend itself to the same format though to work as well.

They're such a sideshow gimmick that nobody can clearly define them.

[OvDrone]

Winning an F1 race means something else.

[gowebber]

He won a race. Just because it's a shorter distance it doesn't count?? That's nuts. It's like saying if a group of runners run a 400m and 100m race the 100m winner doesn't count.

Also a sprint is a more pure form of racing without the tyre management science experiment too thus demonstrating pure pace. I will never understand denigrating a win just because it's a shorter distance.

Edited by gowebber, 12 January 2024 - 21:21.

[messy]

He’s won a race in an F1 car, so he’s an F1 race winner - but it’s not a Grand Prix and for God knows how many decades, only Grand Prix wins really mean anything. Sprint wins are trivia/numbers in a box underneath GP wins and championships, at best alongside pole positions, fastest laps etc. so technically yes, but he’s not a GP winner. How much a sprint win counts for is kinda up to the viewer to decide for themselves.

Edited by messy, 12 January 2024 - 21:18.

[KWSN - DSM]

messy, on 12 Jan 2024 - 21:18, said:

He’s won a race in an F1 car, so he’s an F1 race winner - but it’s not a Grand Prix and for God knows how many decades, only Grand Prix wins really mean anything. Sprint wins are trivia/numbers in a box underneath GP wins and championships, at best alongside pole positions, fastest laps etc. so technically yes, but he’s not a GP winner which is the only stat that’s really meaningful.

 

https://en.wikipedia...mpionship_races

[messy]

KWSN - DSM, on 12 Jan 2024 - 21:18, said:

https://en.wikipedia...mpionship_races

All decades ago.