10272 replies to this topic

[Peeko]

Its clear Leclerc has weaknesses that Ferrari has spotted which is why they won’t give him the same de facto #1 position Schumacher had and instead, have drivers next to him that are free to race and will challenge him when the opportunity comes.

This is a massive assumption on your part. Here's one: Schumacher had a defacto #1 because he had no reason to leave the team that he just won two straight championships with, and he could command it. Its not like Leclerc's situation at all.

 

Sainz can't be gone soon enough. What a pissing contest this thread has become.

[DeKnyff]

This is a massive assumption on your part. Here's one: Schumacher had a defacto #1 because he had no reason to leave the team that he just won two straight championships with, and he could command it. Its not like Leclerc's situation at all.

 

Sainz can't be gone soon enough. What a pissing contest this thread has become.

 

"Sainz can't be gone soon enough"

 

Not that you are pissing any less than others...

[KPower]

This is a massive assumption on your part. Here's one: Schumacher had a defacto #1 because he had no reason to leave the team that he just won two straight championships with, and he could command it. Its not like Leclerc's situation at all.

 

Sainz can't be gone soon enough. What a pissing contest this thread has become.

 

If Leclerc is the #1 driver and has been with the team for 6+ years, seems to me he'd have some pull in the Ferrari camp. Instead we get complaints that the car is suited to the other driver, the other driver makes life hard for him, the other driver should listen to Charles, management ignores him, etc, etc. Why do all of these things happen to poor Charles?

 

But don't worry, as you said Sainz will be gone and the 7x champ is coming in just a few weeks. I'll be right here to enjoy the honeymoon period and everything after. 

[sterlingfan2000]

I think Ferrari is realizing that Leclerc never going to be a Schuhmacher or Verstappen.

[catent]

There is very little doubt Carlos Sainz is the only and true protagonist of this thread. He exercises some kind of fascination, as absolutely everything seems to revolve around him.

I tend to think the protagonist - on the track, at least - is Charles Leclerc, who has outscored and beaten his teammate, Carlos Sainz, in virtually every season they've competed head-to-head in the same car (especially when weighing DNFs, mechanicals, etc).

 

But yes, perhaps Carlos Sainz is the protagonist of this thread. Or, to put it a bit more accurately, Sainz is a figure of interest being discussed within this thread.

[Enzoluis]

Maybe the other way around: which one from those examples had a *default* #1 and #2, and wasn't decided based on performance as the season evolved?
Ferrari with Schumacher and Verstappen with Perez. Who else?

 

Vettel was #1 for the team since half of 2010, Hamilton always with the exception of 2016, Alonso Always. Button was first driver for Brown, he were not going to point on Barrichello a WDC. Kimi was in 2007 and Massa in 2008.

[DeKnyff]

I tend to think the protagonist - on the track, at least - is Charles Leclerc, who has outscored and beaten his teammate, Carlos Sainz, in virtually every season they've competed head-to-head in the same car (especially when weighing DNFs, mechanicals, etc).

 

But yes, perhaps Carlos Sainz is the protagonist of this thread. Or, to put it a bit more accurately, Sainz is a figure of interest being discussed within this thread.

 

Yeah, Leclerc is supposed to be the lead driver, so it's normal that he wins. Very little to discuss about it.

 

Nevertheless, it's absolutely amazing that, despite all that, Sainz is by far the most mentioned driver in this thread. And always in very emotional terms. Worth a psychological research.

[catent]

I think Ferrari is realizing that Leclerc never going to be a Schuhmacher or Verstappen.

Based on what? Leclerc having the best overall season of his career?

 

Good lord, this thread has become miserable the past few days. 

 

Over the past 18 or so months, Leclerc has demonstrated himself to be a top-driver. Anyone claiming themselves, or Ferrari, or anyone else has identified some fundamental, unsolvable flaw in Leclerc's driving that will prevent him from becoming a WDC at some point in the future, is absolutely, positively full of sh*t. End of story. The same could be about Verstappen, or Schumacher, or Hamilton, or Vettel, or any other WDC-winning driver at various stages in their career: even the best drivers look human at times, even the best drivers have 'off' weekends, and even the best drivers face struggles. Ironically we're having this discussion on the heels of a strong weekend for Leclerc - within what has been a very strong season for him - which makes this conversation all the more insane.

 

On the balance of the season, Leclerc has been one of the strongest drivers on the grid (hell, he's been one of the strongest drivers on the grid going back to midway through the 2023 season); his tire management, racecraft, and race-pace have taken a massive step forward; he's no longer purely a rapid qualifier who's a bit unpolished in races; he's become the real-deal, the full-package, developing some serious race-pace to match his qualifying prowess. 

 

I generally have found Sainz likable until recently, so I'm not one who has an entrenched, negative opinion of Sainz (some hypocrisy with regard to team orders has started to come to the fore, which I don't care for, but that's more recent). What I will say, though, is this: there is no universe in which anyone must tear-down Leclerc, or question his quality as a driver, in order to defend Sainz. Besides being flat-out wrong and inconsistent with reality, it's just generally a bad-look and a toxic approach to feel the need to bring others down in an effort to prop oneself (or one's opinion) up. 

 

Sainz a quality driver himself. On a good day, he's a top-5 driver on the grid, and on his best days, he can compete with anyone. I'll say it again: the need to bring Leclerc down in order to prop-up Sainz is a shame, on so many levels. 

Edited by catent, Today, 16:56.

[prty]

Vettel was #1 for the team since half of 2010, Hamilton always with the exception of 2016, Alonso Always. Button was first driver for Brown, he were not going to point on Barrichello a WDC. Kimi was in 2007 and Massa in 2008.

Just to make sure I understood your message right, you're saying that Kimi got the default #1 role since the beginning (race 1) of the season in 2007, and just after winning that championship, it was his teammate Massa who got a default #1 status since the beginning (race 1) of the 2008 season. Is that correct?

Edited by prty, Today, 16:46.

[DeKnyff]

Vettel was #1 for the team since half of 2010, Hamilton always with the exception of 2016, Alonso Always. Button was first driver for Brown, he were not going to point on Barrichello a WDC. Kimi was in 2007 and Massa in 2008.

 

Yeah, you can become #1 driver by contract or by showing on track that you have more speed than your team mate. But, at the end of the day, in most cases there is a #1 and a #2 driver when a team is fighting for a WDC. There have been some exceptions, like Senna - Prost or Alonso - Hamilton, but they tend to end in tears.

 

This year, we have had Norris and Piastri at McLaren and while there has not been much tension because I don't think they had a realistic WDC winning chance, I predict that if McLaren is again a contender in 2025, one of them will leave the team at the end of the year.

[prty]

Based on what? Leclerc having the best overall season of his career?

Good lord, this thread has become miserable the past few days.

Over the past 18 or so months, Leclerc has demonstrated himself to be a top-driver. Anyone claiming themselves, or Ferrari, or anyone else has identified some fundamental, unsolvable flaw in Leclerc's driving that will prevent him from becoming a WDC at some point in the future, is absolutely, positively full of sh*t. End of story. The same could be about Verstappen, or Schumacher, or Hamilton, or Vettel, or any other WDC-winning driver at various stages in their career: even the best drivers look human at times, even the best drivers have 'off' weekends, and even the best drivers face struggles. Ironically we're having this discussion on the heels of a strong weekend for Leclerc - within what has been a very strong season for him - which makes this conversation all the more insane.

On the balance of the season, Leclerc has been one of the strongest drivers on the grid (hell, he's been one of the strongest drivers on the grid going back to midway through the 2023 season); his tire management, racecraft, and race-pace have taken a massive step forward; he's no longer purely a rapid qualifier who's a bit unpolished in races; he's become the real-deal, the full-package, and it shows when he's given a racecar with pace.

I generally have found Sainz likable until recently, so I'm not one who has an entrenched, negative opinion of Sainz (some hypocrisy with regard to team orders has started to come to the fore, which I don't care for, but that's more recent). What I will say, though, is this: There is no universe in which anyone must tear-down Leclerc, or question his quality as a driver, in order to defend Sainz. Besides just being flat-out wrong and inconsistent with reality, it's just generally a bad-look and a toxic approach to feel the need to bring others down in an effort to prop oneself up.

Sainz a quality driver himself. On a good day, he's a top-5 driver on the grid, and on his best days, he can compete with anyone (if given a fast enough car). I'll say it again: the need to bring Leclerc down in order to prop-up Sainz' quality is a shame, on so many levels.

Leclerc can be a WDC, and actually next year he has a high chance I think. The car is looking really good and the future teammate Hamilton not so good under these regulations.

But as I said several times, even if he wins, he's really similar to Kimi. Very spectacular, likes oversteer, and is fragile looking, so the fans love it. However he has, just like Kimi, a very narrow operating window regarding balance. Even last season it turned out that he likes oversteer, just not every kind of oversteer, but stable oversteer.
So he might win if the planets align, but as for today, he's very far from a current Verstappen, peak Alonso or Hamilton, or peak Schumacher. Those are just in a different league. Can you imagine any of those having so much trouble with Sainz, or disappearing when the car is a bit understeery?

Edited by prty, Today, 16:58.

[Enzoluis]

Just to make sure I understood your message right, you're saying that Kimi got the default #1 role since the beginning (race 1) of the season in 2007, and just after winning that championship, it was his teammate Massa who got a default #1 status since the beginning (race 1) of the 2008 season. Is that correct?

 

yes.

[prty]

yes.

Then I feel I don't need to say anything else on that

[Speedometer]

I think Ferrari is realizing that Leclerc never going to be a Schuhmacher or Verstappen.

 

To be fair on Leclerc, he's never had the luxury of "easier" teammates like Verstappen. Put Charles in the best car with an inconsistent teammate like Perez that has zero ability to put any pressure on him and i'm sure Charles too would look like a driving god.  

Edited by Speedometer, Today, 17:06.

[DeKnyff]

Based on what? Leclerc having the best overall season of his career?

 

Good lord, this thread has become miserable the past few days. 

 

Over the past 18 or so months, Leclerc has demonstrated himself to be a top-driver. Anyone claiming themselves, or Ferrari, or anyone else has identified some fundamental, unsolvable flaw in Leclerc's driving that will prevent him from becoming a WDC at some point in the future, is absolutely, positively full of sh*t. End of story. The same could be about Verstappen, or Schumacher, or Hamilton, or Vettel, or any other WDC-winning driver at various stages in their career: everyone looks human at times, has 'off' weekends, and struggles (ironically we're having this discussion on the heels of a strong weekend for Leclerc - within what has been a very strong season for him - which makes the whole conversation all the more insane).

 

On the balance of the season, Leclerc has been one of the strongest drivers on the grid (hell, he's been one of the strongest drivers on the grid going back to midway through the 2023 season); his tire management, racecraft, and race-pace have taken a massive step forward; he's no longer purely a rapid qualifier who's a bit unpolished in races; he's become the real-deal, the full-package, and it shows when he's given a racecar with pace. 

 

I generally have found Sainz likable until recently, so I'm not one who has an entrenched, negative opinion of Sainz (some hypocrisy with regard to team orders has started to come to the fore, which I don't care for, but that's more recent). What I will say, though, is this: There is no universe in which anyone must tear-down Leclerc, or question his quality as a driver, in order to defend Sainz. Besides just being flat-out wrong and inconsistent with reality, it's just generally a bad-look and a toxic approach to feel the need to bring others down in an effort to prop oneself up. 

 

Sainz a quality driver himself. On a good day, he's a top-5 driver on the grid, and on his best days, he can compete with anyone (if given a fast enough car). I'll say it again: the need to bring Leclerc down in order to prop-up Sainz' quality is a shame, on so many levels. 

 

Again, a post about a strictly Leclerc question (if he is on Schumacher or Verstappen level) which turns into a Sainz discussion. The guy is just magic! 

[brucewayne]

To be fair on Leclerc, he's never had the luxury of "easier" teammates like Verstappen. Put Charles in the best car with an inconsistent teammate like Perez that has zero ability to put any pressure on him and i'm sure Charles too would look like a driving god. This is the issue of have with Max. He has it too easy with teammates.

Some people live in the past. To compete in WCC, you can’t rely solely on one driver anymore. The playing field is getting more even, that’s what the budget cap is for. And for making profits obviously. RB won’t win a WCC anymore unless they upgrade their second driver.

For Ferrari, Leclerc extended his contract for 3 years, and an 7 time world champion will join for two years at least. They did their homework. Those times of Schumacher, without any restrictions in testing and budgeting, are long gone. Even Max looks human from time to time.

Edited by brucewayne, Today, 17:10.

[PrinceBira]

To be fair on Leclerc, he's never had the luxury of "easier" teammates like Verstappen. Put Charles in the best car with an inconsistent teammate like Perez that has zero ability to put any pressure on him and i'm sure Charles too would look like a driving god.  This is the issue of have with Max.  He has it too easy with teammates.

 

Well, they both drove versus Sainz ;). 

 

I think Leclerc can be WDC easily. He's a step further in his development compared to Norris.

 

The only step he needs to make is to iron out some strange mistakes he still seems to make (like his Mexico almost crash). The mistake rate seems to have reduced though, so if he can keep up this line he won't have many other weak points. 

[brucewayne]

Well, they both drove versus Sainz ;).

I think Leclerc can be WDC easily. He's a step further in his development compared to Norris.

The only step he needs to make is to iron out some strange mistakes he still seems to make (like his Mexico almost crash). The mistake rate seems to have reduced though, so if he can keep up this line he won't have many other weak points.

Leclerc is super constant this year. Will be also key next year, main focus has to be to deliver a car that can compete from the beginning.

[Peeko]

"Sainz can't be gone soon enough"

 

Not that you are pissing any less than others...

Show me where I have been pissing on Sainz? Go ahead. I'll wait. You Sainz apologists are in here tearing down Lerclerc because you don't like what's being said about Sainz. Its primary school recess stuff.

Edited by Peeko, Today, 17:17.

[SophieB]

This thread is supposed to be about the car, please get back to discussing I don’t know, rear wings or something!
There is a team thread somewhere, and I get why there is overlap from time to time but it’s not really fair on the tech minded fans. There’s too much to unpick/remove, please just get back on track.

[DeKnyff]

This thread is supposed to be about the car, please get back to discussing I don’t know, rear wings or something!
There is a team thread somewhere, and I get why there is overlap from time to time but it’s not really fair on the tech minded fans. There’s too much to unpick/remove, please just get back on track.

 

Not wanting to discuss moderators, but there was a poll some time ago about uniting both threads (not only for Ferrari, but all teams) and I think it would have been a good idea. At the end of the day, technical issues and team issues are closely related.

 

That said, I'll do my best for posting on the correct thread.

[SophieB]

Not wanting to discuss moderators, but there was a poll some time ago about uniting both threads (not only for Ferrari, but all teams) and I think it would have been a good idea. At the end of the day, technical issues and team issues are closely related.

 

That said, I'll do my best for posting on the correct thread.

We’ll discuss in the off season backstage. I hope you appreciate not wanting to discuss it here further for the same reason as not wanting the team talk to overwhelm it but - and I say this to anyone reading this who has views either way - feel free to PM me.

[brucewayne]

This thread is supposed to be about the car, please get back to discussing I don’t know, rear wings or something!
There is a team thread somewhere, and I get why there is overlap from time to time but it’s not really fair on the tech minded fans. There’s too much to unpick/remove, please just get back on track.

Back to the main part:

Interesting to see that they put the new floor on at the start.
Maybe they will run it in FP again?

https://x.com/brakeb...Osfp9l5bhDKm2ug