3387 replies to this topic

[RedRabbit]

Apart from Melbourne and Jeddah, Ferrari have been 3rd and 4th every race. On a Sprint weekend in unsuitable conditions for the car, they're 4th and 5th, and somehow the sky has fallen.

It's like stepping into the twilight zone, or a nursery school in here sometimes.

[vlado]

It’s not just the cooler conditions or the setup.. there are inherent characteristics in the car that can’t be fixed with setup, that’s why I think they won’t be able to fix the warm up issues until next year, just like RB wasn’t able to fix the RB18. I hope that I’m wrong of course

[Astandahl]

Apart from Melbourne and Jeddah, Ferrari have been 3rd and 4th every race. On a Sprint weekend in unsuitable conditions for the car, they're 4th and 5th, and somehow the sky has fallen.

It's like stepping into the twilight zone, or a nursery school in here sometimes.

I didn't (still don't) have high hopes for this season. I just hate seeing Sainz and Leclerc complete the race behind Perez

Edited by Astandahl, 23 April 2024 - 08:40.

[dia6olo]

It’s not just the cooler conditions or the setup.. there are inherent characteristics in the car that can’t be fixed with setup, that’s why I think they won’t be able to fix the warm up issues until next year, just like RB wasn’t able to fix the RB18. I hope that I’m wrong of course

I don't buy into the warm up issue can't be fixed until next year.

We had shocking tyre deg with the SF-23 because of overheating the tyres that was fixed in-season, and it was done on a very flawed car.

There's no reason why with some in-season upgrades they can't shift the warm up window a little which is likely all that is required.

They have also had 3 P2 starts out of the 5 races, maybe some of us are exaggerating the issue, maybe the fix required isn't all that big.

I have said that I also feel we are not maximising the race tyre because we are not generating enough heat, however, I feel that's a relatively small problem, mostly because I think even if not quite there they are very close to were they need to be with the in-race tyre setup.

Edited by dia6olo, 23 April 2024 - 01:41.

[Gambelli]

The issue is definitely exaggerated, not sure here Ferrari's last 0.2 sec or so of pace went last weekend, but it's not the end of the world.  Even RedBull have had a race where the pace wasn't where their average shows it should have been.

 

Just odd it was meant to be McLaren's bogey track, not Ferrari's but surely we all agree that the whole enjoyment of F1 comes from unpredictability?  If we knew the exact order and gaps going into every weekend, why bother watching at all.

[w1Y]

IMO the promising thing with this car is they seemed to have gotten on top of tyre deg etc relative to where it has been in the past. Maybe I'm wrong but I always remember them struggling at the end of stints. If anything they seem to.be stronger than others more recently.

Red bull is on a other planet but this is an area that they seemed to.have made big improvements. Just seemed to me that China didn't suit the car and thats OK because I think China is more unique in its demand in the front end.

Edited by w1Y, 22 April 2024 - 23:49.

[MissingApex]

IMO the promising thing with this car is they seemed to have gotten on top of tyre deg etc relative to where it has been in the past. Maybe I'm wrong but I always remember them struggling at the end of stints. If anything they seem to.be stronger than others more recently.

Red bull is on a other planet but this is an area that they seemed to.have made big improvements. Just seemed to me that China didn't suit the car and thats OK because I think China is more unique in its demand in the front end.

Red Bull only was quicker in the slow corners (quite a bit though), in the quick corners they were pretty much even.

[AlexS]

Surprised to not have seen yet an after action report about the subpar performance.

[GiorgioF1]

   

 

https://dubz.co/c/35ad5f

 

[vlado]

Ferrari: summary of information from @formu1a__uno via live Twitch:

- Ferrari will unveil its special livery for the Miami Grand Prix on May 1. It will not only be the car but also the drivers' suits with helmets normally.

- HP/Ferrari agreement = very important operation. Already from an economic point of view because we are expecting a very large sum of money. This completely covers Lewis Hamilton's salary. And then also from a technology point of view, the deal is similar to what Oracle is doing with RB.

- Leclerc = @mara_sangiorgio explains that he is quite confident about the next updates but not only him, it's the whole team. There is a collective internal confidence that dates back to the winter. They have been working a lot on this concept for a long time, as well as the new things that are coming. In fact, since the 2023 Dutch Grand Prix, the team has understood the path they need to take for their car concept.

- Updates = no major updates planned for Miami because of the sprint weekend but there will be some small new features. The team continues to accelerate development at the factory and for Imola, the SF-24 EVO version should be ready.

- The fact that Ferrari is waiting quite a long time to introduce their first major package is because they saw in the wind tunnel that they could gain even more performance in certain areas of the car so it is worth the wait.


https://x.com/ferrar...zg-bv2n8am2mMAg

[STRFerrari4Ever]

https://dubz.co/c/35ad5f

It’s like a long running gag but Leclerc has himself to blame for keeping him as his race engineer. Can you imagine GP and Max being clueless as to what the other is talking about? I certainly can’t.

Miami should be a scorcher temperature wise so the tyres are gonna suffer for pretty much every team, maybe our tyre wear will come into its own but it’s also a Sprint weekend so no time to nail the ideal setup as evidenced by China.

[dia6olo]

It’s like a long running gag but Leclerc has himself to blame for keeping him as his race engineer. Can you imagine GP and Max being clueless as to what the other is talking about? I certainly can’t.

Miami should be a scorcher temperature wise so the tyres are gonna suffer for pretty much every team, maybe our tyre wear will come into its own but it’s also a Sprint weekend so no time to nail the ideal setup as evidenced by China.

Just to be clear I'm also not convinced with Leclerc's racing engineer but a lot of it is nonsense and ultimately he's still there because Leclerc values him.

 

Ferrari “original line”, the explanation of the live test on the SF-24 Hard

 

 "Maybe Xavi won't go down in history as the best communicator ever, okay, he'll make mistakes every now and then, that's okay. But this crazy desire to place his head on the media pillory, every Sunday when the races are on, frankly seems exaggerated. We say this also because we have been listening to him on the radio for 5 years now. Every single session. And often, observing the comments on social media , we notice how any occasion is a good one to decontextualize his "vocal exploits" and shred him."

[prty]

It’s like a long running gag but Leclerc has himself to blame for keeping him as his race engineer. Can you imagine GP and Max being clueless as to what the other is talking about? I certainly can’t.

Miami should be a scorcher temperature wise so the tyres are gonna suffer for pretty much every team, maybe our tyre wear will come into its own but it’s also a Sprint weekend so no time to nail the ideal setup as evidenced by China.

How was that the fault of Leclerc engineer? The message was quite understandable.
There's a strong tendency to blame the engineer or Ferrari for anything that happens, no matter if it's reasonable to do so or not.

[Massa]

Yeah, they've been far too conservative so far IMO. No point having better degradation than RB if we lose a lot of pace. I want them to go full qualifying setup to see how bad it can get in the race with degradation.

That would be stupid to do that.

[MissingApex]

Just to be clear I'm also not convinced with Leclerc's racing engineer but a lot of it is nonsense and ultimately he's still there because Leclerc values him.

Ferrari “original line”, the explanation of the live test on the SF-24 Hard

"Maybe Xavi won't go down in history as the best communicator ever, okay, he'll make mistakes every now and then, that's okay. But this crazy desire to place his head on the media pillory, every Sunday when the races are on, frankly seems exaggerated. We say this also because we have been listening to him on the radio for 5 years now. Every single session. And often, observing the comments on social media , we notice how any occasion is a good one to decontextualize his "vocal exploits" and shred him."

Does he really value him or doesn’t he have a choice?

There is a huge difference in communication between f.e. GP and Max or Lewis and Bono compared to Xavi and Charles.

I’ve never heard GP discussing Plan D or G with Max, he just tells him what the strategy is, where as Xavi is asking Charles about every race what he thinks about Plan B or D.
You don’t ask a driver to help you make a decision in the middle of a race.

Also, last race both Charles and Max had the same problem with a draining battery, GP told Max immediately which settings he had to change to solve the problem, Xavi’s response was the usual ‘we will check and come back to you’.

A driver should be concentrating on driving the car, and should not be answering questions about strategy or having to wait minutes before his race engineer finds a solution for his problem. Adequate communication between driver and the race engineer can make a significant difference in a race.

In my opinion Xavi is more of a distraction and frustration than being helpful to Charles, needs to be replaced asap by a proper race engineer.

[Massa]

What's the problem if Ferrari have 5-6 strategy options in a race ? So just because it's bothering YOU, Leclerc have to change HIS engineer ?

In every team the ask a drivers what he is thinking about this or that strategy, there is nothing new.

What's wrong with checking and coming back, do you really think Red Bull doesn't check before telling something to Verstappen ?

I think they as a team know better than all of us what a driver can and cannot do in the car, I found astonishing to see someone who are not a racing driver, telling a race engineer and his driver what they have to do in a race.

As if Vasseur was not in this business for the past 30 years.


Vasseur, Charles, and all the team is fine with Leclerc's engineer, otherwise he would not be here. Deal with it.

Edited by Massa, 24 April 2024 - 14:20.

[MissingApex]

What's the problem if Ferrari have 5-6 strategy options in a race ? So just because it's bothering YOU, Leclerc have to change HIS engineer ?

In every team the ask a drivers what he is thinking about this or that strategy, there is nothing new.

What's wrong with checking and coming back, do you really think Red Bull doesn't check before telling something to Verstappen ?

I think they as a team know better than all of us what a driver can and cannot do in the car, I found astonishing to see someone who are not a racing driver, telling a race engineer and his driver what they have to do in a race.

As if Vasseur was not in this business for the past 30 years.


Vasseur, Charles, and all the team is fine with Leclerc's engineer, otherwise he would not be here. Deal with it.

The issue is they shouldn’t let a driver decide about strategies because he doesn’t have the overall view of the race, he shouldn’t be bothered by that.

Also, a decent racing engineer doesn’t have to ‘check’, he should have the solution for a problem right away, how many laps did it take to find a fix and how much time was lost?

[catent]

Does he really value him or doesn’t he have a choice?

There is a huge difference in communication between f.e. GP and Max or Lewis and Bono compared to Xavi and Charles.

I’ve never heard GP discussing Plan D or G with Max, he just tells him what the strategy is, where as Xavi is asking Charles about every race what he thinks about Plan B or D.
You don’t ask a driver to help you make a decision in the middle of a race.

Also, last race both Charles and Max had the same problem with a draining battery, GP told Max immediately which settings he had to change to solve the problem, Xavi’s response was the usual ‘we will check and come back to you’.

A driver should be concentrating on driving the car, and should not be answering questions about strategy or having to wait minutes before his race engineer finds a solution for his problem. Adequate communication between driver and the race engineer can make a significant difference in a race.

In my opinion Xavi is more of a distraction and frustration than being helpful to Charles, needs to be replaced asap by a proper race engineer.

Very good post, I agree with all of it. I have been defending Leclerc as it relates to Xavi's continued presence, stating it's very likely that there are many administrative steps (be it individuals or logistical processes) to cross before dismissing an employee of the team. If one individual had entire control/say over another's employ, this idea that Leclerc can snap his fingers and get rid of Xavi, that would be concerning to me (and seemed unlikely). 

 

Over time it's become increasingly clear that - under most circumstances - drivers do in fact have a lot of control/say over their race engineer. And regardless of who determines whether Xavi stays or go, be it Leclerc, someone else within Ferrari, or a combination of both, it's also becoming increasingly clear that the relationship isn't working and Leclerc needs a new - and better - race engineer. Kind of funny to be saying that now, in 2024, when that statement ("it's also becoming increasingly clear that the relationship isn't working and Leclerc needs a new - and better - race engineer") was very relevant/apparent during the 2022/23 seasons, too. I guess Leclerc was willing to be patient and give Xavi (and the team at large) time to work on communication. Beyond that, I'm sure Leclerc was also looking forward and hoping that a superior race car with better tire degradation would result in more favorable situations during races, making strategic decisions easier, clearer, less pressurized - and that - coupled with a stronger pit-wall around Xavi supporting him, Vasseur's leadership, etc, would improve the situation enough such that Xavi could stay without Leclerc asking for him to be dismissed. That time is up; it's time to find Leclerc a new race engineer.

 

Leclerc is often left frustrated/confused; Xavi struggles to communicate clear, succinct, direct instructions; the two lack any rapport, lack any chemistry, the exact opposite of finishing each others' sentences. At this point, I suspect Leclerc doesn't realize just how much better things can be should he have a race engineer who is competent and with whom he gets along well. And, going a step further, I suspect Leclerc doesn't fully appreciate the positive impact that a superior race engineer will have on his own ability to race confidently, calmly, and without distraction. 

Edited by catent, 24 April 2024 - 15:14.

[vlado]

[KWSN - DSM]

 

 

How do they calculate that?

[catent]

As @KWSN - DSM asked, how is this calculated? What are the variables being used? It looks like an axis graph but the axes are not labeled.

Edited by catent, 24 April 2024 - 15:26.

[KWSN - DSM]

As @KWSN - DSM asked, how is this calculated? What are the variables being used? It looks like an axis graph but the axes are not labeled.

 

[dia6olo]

What's the problem if Ferrari have 5-6 strategy options in a race ? So just because it's bothering YOU, Leclerc have to change HIS engineer ?

In every team the ask a drivers what he is thinking about this or that strategy, there is nothing new.

What's wrong with checking and coming back, do you really think Red Bull doesn't check before telling something to Verstappen ?

I think they as a team know better than all of us what a driver can and cannot do in the car, I found astonishing to see someone who are not a racing driver, telling a race engineer and his driver what they have to do in a race.

As if Vasseur was not in this business for the past 30 years.


Vasseur, Charles, and all the team is fine with Leclerc's engineer, otherwise he would not be here. Deal with it.

Some people, actually most people will always see what they want to see.

Some people would have you believe that Ferrari pay Leclerc a fraction of the money they pay his engineer because what Leclerc does or has to say is unimportant, why on earth would they pay Leclerc multiple times more than his engineer and give him choices, it makes no sense 

Leclerc's engineer is still there because right or wrong Leclerc is OK with it not because he is stuck with him.

Edited by dia6olo, 24 April 2024 - 16:28.

[vlado]

How do they calculate that?

https://x.com/f1bigd...zg-bv2n8am2mMAg

[KWSN - DSM]

https://x.com/f1bigd...zg-bv2n8am2mMAg

 

Thanks but I am not smart enough to understand that.

[MissingApex]

Some people, actually most people will always see what they want to see.
Some people would have you believe that Ferrari pay Leclerc a fraction of the money they pay his engineer because what Leclerc does or has to say is unimportant, why on earth would they give Leclerc choices
Leclerc's engineer is still there because Leclerc is OK with it not because he is stuck with him.

I think he’s stuck with him, for now.

Does GP give Max choices? He just tells him what to do.

They (should) have a strategy team to calculate what the best choice is. A driver doesn’t have all the information needed to make decisions on that.

Xavi lacks charisma and clarity, especially in the most hectic phases of the Grand Prix. He is saying to Charles things like, ‘I want to make sure Charles is happy with what we’re going to do’. You don’t ask a driver to help you make a decision in the middle of a race. All a driver wants is to know that the decision has been made for this reason and move on.

Charles’ radio messages expressing his frustration with Xavi have almost become iconic.

[dia6olo]

I think he’s stuck with him, for now.

Does GP give Max choices? He just tells him what to do.

They (should) have a strategy team to calculate what the best choice is. A driver doesn’t have all the information needed to make decisions on that.

Xavi lacks charisma and clarity, especially in the most hectic phases of the Grand Prix. He is saying to Charles things like, ‘I want to make sure Charles is happy with what we’re going to do’. You don’t ask a driver to help you make a decision in the middle of a race. All a driver wants is to know that the decision has been made for this reason and move on.

Charles’ radio messages expressing his frustration with Xavi have almost become iconic.

As I said in my first comment on the subject "Just to be clear I'm also not convinced with Leclerc's racing engineer".

I am not disputing his competence, as I said I am also not convinced with him, I am however calling BS on those that think he is stuck with him because he has no choice.

[SCUDmissile]

That chart is hilarious hahahaha what rubbish

[nemanja]

   

 

https://dubz.co/c/35ad5f

I really, really do not understand Charles regarding his engineer.

That must be worst race engineer in the whole wide world.

 

I will get back to you.

[Enzoluis]

What's the problem if Ferrari have 5-6 strategy options in a race ? So just because it's bothering YOU, Leclerc have to change HIS engineer ?

In every team the ask a drivers what he is thinking about this or that strategy, there is nothing new.

What's wrong with checking and coming back, do you really think Red Bull doesn't check before telling something to Verstappen ?

I think they as a team know better than all of us what a driver can and cannot do in the car, I found astonishing to see someone who are not a racing driver, telling a race engineer and his driver what they have to do in a race.

As if Vasseur was not in this business for the past 30 years.


Vasseur, Charles, and all the team is fine with Leclerc's engineer, otherwise he would not be here. Deal with it.

 

What I see is that they do not have a blind confidence in each other and that Xavi should have what is happening in the car as if he were on it, in that way Xavi can check before Leclerc asks,  My model of relationship between driver an engineer is Michel and Ross. 

[gpking]

https://youtu.be/n0C...fKnScHgsnqwa--u
https://youtu.be/ZKl...0IEEJinmr_uKjgY

Videos in Italian but there are English subtitles.

[vlado]

they really have awesome 3d graphics.. not sure how accurate, but really nice to look at 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by vlado, 24 April 2024 - 23:58.

[nemanja]

https://youtu.be/n0C...fKnScHgsnqwa--u
https://youtu.be/ZKl...0IEEJinmr_uKjgY

Videos in Italian but there are English subtitles.

Second clip is really quite telling and very interesting.

Thanks.

[STRFerrari4Ever]

I mean it’s very simple to understand, Xavi might be great at analysis or behind the scenes work etc. but when it comes to conveying the information to Leclerc in a concise, coherent and most importantly confident manner, he has never displayed that.

There are countless examples where you think wtf? Turkey 21, Monaco 22 and Spa 22 are just a few examples of the communication issues that arise from him being the engineer. Initially I cut him some slack since English isn’t his first language but this is F1 so there are not really any excuses.

What some of you are failing to realise is that it’s a weakness having him as a race engineer and it only becomes more apparent when we’re in the fight for victories and really at the sharp end, Monaco 22 was the most glaring example to date.

GP is the benchmark in terms of race engineers because he has the information ready and delivers it promptly and you also hear this when he even tells Max off on how he uses his tyres as it potentially jeopardises the stint length(a radio message last season). Furthermore, during one of the closest title battles in 2021, he was always on point with the information he delivered to Max, now swap Xavi into that same scenario and you’d get a completely different outcome.

Edited by STRFerrari4Ever, 25 April 2024 - 01:49.

[Risil]

Please could we keep Newey speculation in the big Newey Leaves Red Bull thread for now?

 

https://forums.autos...red-bull-split/

[prty]

[ferrarista]

https://www.youtube....h?v=jlg-GyeQ5w0

0,15s is massive; doesn’t it depict a bad image of the driver Leclerc?
The gains are bigger as quicker as you go in the slower corners since forever.
I would think he doesn’t need this kind of advice from his engineer.
Now it’s clear what Marcos meant, Charles looks like a fool for not understanding what he wanted him to do.

Edited by ferrarista, 25 April 2024 - 18:46.

[Enzoluis]

0,15s is massive; doesn’t it depict a bad image of the driver Leclerc?
The gains are bigger as quicker as you go in the slower corners since forever.
I would think he doesn’t need this kind of advice from his engineer.
Now it’s clear what Marcos meant, Charles looks like a fool for not understanding what he wanted him to do.

 

If they wanted to test again the original line there was some reason they choose it until they saw Norris faster with the alternative.