53 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

I've been on this for a while, so it's nice to see some drivers talking about it now. Fernando and George have taken up the cause ...

 

Alonso: Three days of single-car testing "unfair" on F1 drivers

Aston Martin's Fernando Alonso says it is "unfair" for Formula 1 drivers to only get one and a half day of winter testing in Bahrain.

 

https://www.autospor...ivers/10575897/

 

 

...

 

"We have very limited testing in Bahrain," Alonso said. "I've been thinking all winter about this, how unfair it is that we only have one day and a half to prepare a world championship.

 

"There is no other sport in the world, with all the money involved and with all the marketing and the good things that we say about Formula 1 and being closer and closer to the fans, [where that happens].

 

"I cannot understand why we then go to Bahrain for four days, which could be two and two for the drivers. If you go to three, which is not even, which is an odd number, you cannot divide between the drivers.

 

"And I don't know why we don't go with two cars? Because we are already in Bahrain and we race the following week."

 

Alonso is not the only driver who has led calls to open up winter testing to two cars, with Mercedes man and GPDA director George Russell also behind the idea.

 

"Personally speaking, I don't think three days is enough, because you have got to remember from a driver's perspective, that is one and a half days per driver," Russell said last year.

 

 

[Planetdune]

Everyone has the same rules, so it is totally fair.... /thread.

 

(if it is enough, that is another question entirely.. but fair, it certainly is)

Edited by Planetdune, 15 February 2024 - 18:20.

[CPR]

Lots of outdated rules now that we have a cost cap in place.

[AustinF1]

Everyone has the same rules, so it is totally fair.... /thread.

 

(if it is enough, that is another question entirely.. but fair, it certainly is)

Alonso's not a native English speaker, so while he speaks it very well for someone speaking English as a second (or third, or fourth) language, I think probably he didn't mean 'unfair' in the sense that any one driver or team was being disadvantaged. I think he meant that more in the sense that it was unfair to all the drivers and teams to make them compete on the edge with so little preparation behind the wheel, in cars they've never driven before. That certainly seems the much more likely interpretation of his and George's remarks imho, but who knows.

Edited by AustinF1, 15 February 2024 - 18:30.

[AustinF1]

Lots of outdated rules now that we have a cost cap in place.

Indeed.

[F1 Mike]

It just seems a bit odd to me that they restrict more and more, it gives test and reserve drivers absolutely no chance to drive current machines as the race drivers need all the track time to get tuned in with their cars

[P123]

It is slightly mad to transport all the cars to Bahrain, then only test with one per team.  Seems needlessly inflexible to have it still mandated as a single car, especially when reducing to one test, to be held at the same circuit as the opening race.

 

As an aside, along with the bland car launches and truncated testing, the sport is doing a good job at killing off any sort of build up to the new season.

[AustinF1]

It is slightly mad to transport all the cars to Bahrain, then only test with one per team.  Seems needlessly inflexible to have it still mandated as a single car, especially when reducing to one test, to be held at the same circuit as the opening race.

 

As an aside, along with the bland car launches and truncated testing, the sport is doing a good job at killing off any sort of build up to the new season.

Yep. Along with killing off the prospect of new teams entering, etc. It's not a great trend, to be sure.

[chdphd]

The first few races can act as tests

[IrvTheSwerve]

There should be more days but not at the same circuit that they’re friggin racing at the week after.

[IrvTheSwerve]

If we’re losing Barcelona from the calendar, let’s have a week of testing there again.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Very odd they can’t run two cars. Stick to one test but allow both cars to run.

Oh, and the circuit should be one that isn’t on the calendar.

Jerez, Portimao, Mugello etc

Archaic rules.

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 15 February 2024 - 18:47.

[Sebastien007]

Alonso is right but he repeats it each year, it is the same for everyone, they need to test during the first races, that's F1 now.

[AustinF1]

Very odd they can’t run two cars. Stick to one test but allow both cars to run.

Archaic rules.

Yeah it's crazy when a team has a problem, losing big chunks of already severely limited test time. Having both cars running would help significantly in limiting that loss. The idea of testing is to find the things that are going to go wrong. The way it is now, if they actually do find those problems, they lose a large % of their available test time when the car goes down.

[ANF]

Running two cars would require more mechanics and engineers at the circuit, right?

[AustinF1]

Alonso is right but he repeats it each year, it is the same for everyone, they need to test during the first races, that's F1 now.

I don't remember him saying it before, but he's not wrong. And it being the same for everyone isn't the point. From the drivers' standpoint, it's a safety issue imho. From ts' team's perspective, even having just one significant issue during the 3 days can set them back massively for the season. It's crazy.

[AncientLurker]

Running two cars would require more mechanics and engineers at the circuit, right?

Yes, but the same mechanics and engineers who are going to be there for the race the following week anyway.

[AustinF1]

Yes, but the same mechanics and engineers who are going to be there for the race the following week anyway.

Yeah I suppose they might bring more mechanics and enfgineers if they brought two cars, but then again, maybe not. I don't know how many they bring now, but with testing being as important as it is, I'd bet they bring more than half the mechanics and engineers despite only bringing half the cars.

[Sebastien007]

Here you had it in 2021

https://amp.nextgen-...ing,152823.html

[Clatter]

Running two cars would require more mechanics and engineers at the circuit, right?

They are probably already there.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Yeah it's crazy when a team has a problem, losing big chunks of already severely limited test time. Having both cars running would help significantly in limiting that loss. The idea of testing is to find the things that are going to go wrong. The way it is now, if they actually do find those problems, they lose a large % of their available test time when the car goes down.

They will say it’s down to cost, but Liberty probably want those things you highlight there to happen. Adds to the ‘show’. (It doesn’t)

[Thursday]

Two three day single car sessions would be good. 

A three day session in southern Europe a week before the Barhain test wouldn't be a burden on the teams and would help build excitement for the season. There are plenty of suitable venues, Paul Ricard or Barcelona after it leaves the calendar.

Two cars per team means more traffic on track and more people away from home.

[RedRabbit]

MotoGP enters the chat. 2 days of shakedown test before pre-season official testing. Test riders and race riders, each on their own bike PLUS sliding scale of in-season testing with test riders.

F1 has fallen off the cliff for sure with some of it's bizarre rules.

It's not a coincidence anymore that since testing has been non-existent in season that we have had unprecedented sustained dominance.

The sample size is big enough now to declare this has been a failure for the sport, and it absolutely has not had the targeted effect of leveling the playing field between the big teams and backmarkers.

[RedRabbit]

All for the sake of the show. Championship races should NOT be when teams are trying to figure the cars out still.

Pre-season should be at least 2 tests of 4 days. Stick it on YouTube as a highlights package at the end of each day.

Edit: and there should be at least a dozen in season testing days available for test or reserve drivers.

Edited by RedRabbit, 15 February 2024 - 19:12.

[ARTGP]

MotoGP enters the chat. 2 days of shakedown test before pre-season official testing. Test riders and race riders, each on their own bike PLUS sliding scale of in-season testing with test riders.

F1 has fallen off the cliff for sure with some of it's bizarre rules.

It's not a coincidence anymore that since testing has been non-existent in season that we have had unprecedented sustained dominance.

The sample size is big enough now to declare this has been a failure for the sport, and it absolutely has not had the targeted effect of leveling the playing field between the big teams and backmarkers.

 

 

Unfortunately for the drivers, the teams themselves prefer it this way because it's the same for everyone and it's less expensive.    

Edited by ARTGP, 15 February 2024 - 19:16.

[loki]

There are several means from which to prepare the car and driver for the season.  Testing is now a means from which to correlate to see if your other tools are accurate.  You’ll get better, more consistent data from tunnels, CFD, sims and the like than from pounding around a track for a few days.

[AustinF1]

Here you had it in 2021

https://amp.nextgen-...ing,152823.html

OK, cool. He was right then, too.

[DutchQuicksilver]

I’m fine with three days of testing, but yeah I’m a bit baffled as to why two cars aren’t allowed. They are already in Bahrain and race there the week after, so why not two cars?

[ConsiderAndGo]

There are several means from which to prepare the car and driver for the season. Testing is now a means from which to correlate to see if your other tools are accurate. You’ll get better, more consistent data from tunnels, CFD, sims and the like than from pounding around a track for a few days.

Nah.

Not having that.

[AustinF1]

All for the sake of the show. Championship races should NOT be when teams are trying to figure the cars out still.

Pre-season should be at least 2 tests of 4 days. Stick it on YouTube as a highlights package at the end of each day.

Edit: and there should be at least a dozen in season testing days available for test or reserve drivers.

Yep, and with the budget cap in place, let the teams figure out how much to spend on what.

[Clatter]

I’m fine with three days of testing, but yeah I’m a bit baffled as to why two cars aren’t allowed. They are already in Bahrain and race there the week after, so why not two cars?

 

I miss the days of testing. It was a good day out at a test session. Cars out on track for most of the day, and it was free to attend at Silverstone. They only started to charge not that long before the test ban came in.

[Ruusperi]

By April they start complaining that Friday free practice is useless.

 

But yeah, I miss the days when teams were testing at Magny-Cours, Estoril, Monza all year around. You could read the latest test results from magazines or a new thing called the Internet. Also, it always seemed the biggest crashes and flips always happened during testing, and obviously without TV coverage, the only thing we got were aftermath photographs.

 

It's bizarre F1 claims it's the most valuable sport in the world and worth of trillion billion quadrillion dollars, but can't afford allow a few days of testing, when 20+ years ago they could afford to do testing all the time (especially Ferrari). So actually F1 has become poor?

Edited by Ruusperi, 15 February 2024 - 20:16.

[SenorSjon]

MotoGP enters the chat. 2 days of shakedown test before pre-season official testing. Test riders and race riders, each on their own bike PLUS sliding scale of in-season testing with test riders.

F1 has fallen off the cliff for sure with some of it's bizarre rules.

It's not a coincidence anymore that since testing has been non-existent in season that we have had unprecedented sustained dominance.

The sample size is big enough now to declare this has been a failure for the sport, and it absolutely has not had the targeted effect of leveling the playing field between the big teams and backmarkers.

Since the testing ban, we've only got 2 teams winning the WCC for 15(!) seasons now:
2009 Mercedes (Brawn)
2010-2013 Red Bull
2014-2021 Mercedes
2022-2023 Red Bull

And that while the testing ban was brought in to break dominant (Ferrari) streaks. That went well.

[Laster]

Wasn’t the testing ban to reduce spending?

[AncientLurker]

So actually F1 has become poor?

Not poor, greedy and profit driven. The cost cap was originally to protect small teams, but now, with the revenue stream being what it is, the less the teams spend the more money they pocket. Adding more test days and two cars at tests would help make it more competitive likely, but I don’t think that is what the aim of F1 is any longer.

The term the F1 circus has been used for a long time, but now more than ever it is truly that. Blocking Andretti from entry into their stage production was a very telling part of this. F1 sadly is now much closer to Cirque du Soleil than a sport.

[JL14]

Yeah, I never understood why these last year they are not allowed to test with 2 cars.

 

Even if the second car had to driven by their reserve/test/young driver for the season, to make sure they are better prepared as well to step-in and get some mileage.

[Fastcake]

There are several means from which to prepare the car and driver for the season.  Testing is now a means from which to correlate to see if your other tools are accurate.  You’ll get better, more consistent data from tunnels, CFD, sims and the like than from pounding around a track for a few days.

I agree on the technical side, the engineers these days just want to know their fancy machines are working, but I don't believe simulation can ever completely replicate the experience for a driver.

[Nathan]

Testing was largely about comparing parts and testing endurance, computers can now do that very well.

 

Here I remember the old days endless testing being dominated by the teams that did the endless testing....which was only ever 2 teams at a time. 

 

On one side you can talk about here only being 2 teams winning, but when has the grid as a whole ever been closer?

 

It's not a coincidence anymore that since testing has been non-existent in season that we have had unprecedented sustained dominance.
 

 

Schumacher + Ferrari = ??

Edited by Nathan, 15 February 2024 - 22:27.

[AustinF1]

Wasn’t the testing ban to reduce spending?

Yep, but now there's a budget cap that they can work under - if they were allowed to do so.

[azza200]

There should be more days but not at the same circuit that they’re friggin racing at the week after.

 

Blame the owners of Bahrain who wanted the exclusivity of testing for F1 at their track 

[pdac]

Practice makes perfect, so the saying goes. Of course drivers (and everyone) wants more testing. But that's the challenge. You have to use the limited resources to the best you can. 

[William Hunt]

There should be more testing opportunities, forced by the FIA, for young drivers as well. Considering the number of races we have 1 test session for a rookie driver for each car that has no rookie in it, is also far too few opportunities.

[Nathan]

I agree, if any more testing is put in it should be for rookies and young drivers.  The rest are F1 drivers, so...

[krapmeister]

Blame the owners of Bahrain who wanted the exclusivity of testing for F1 at their track

This is the silly thing about it - the increased jeopardy and chance to jumble up the grid has been put forward as a reason for reduced FP sessions (as well as testing, although that has primarily been cost driven). Then they go test at the very same track they will be racing at only a few days later.

But as you say, Bahrain has paid for the privilege of being the pre-season test venue. As always in F1, money talks.

[AncientLurker]

Blame the owners of Bahrain who wanted the exclusivity of testing for F1 at their track

Blame greed for agreeing to it.

[CoolBreeze]

It's the same thing whereby you are given a limited amount of time to train for the olympics.

 

At the end of the day, this thing is just a show and not a sport anymore

[IrvTheSwerve]

Blame the owners of Bahrain who wanted the exclusivity of testing for F1 at their track 

Or blame F1 for taking the cash without thinking how it will affect the sport…

[onemoresolo]

There are several means from which to prepare the car and driver for the season.  Testing is now a means from which to correlate to see if your other tools are accurate.  You’ll get better, more consistent data from tunnels, CFD, sims and the like than from pounding around a track for a few days.

 

You can't genuinely believe that the best way of getting data about how a car will perform on track isn't by actually running it on track? Everything else is hypothetical. Data-based to the nth degree hypothetical, but hypothetical nonetheless.

Edited by onemoresolo, 16 February 2024 - 11:20.

[Clatter]

There are several means from which to prepare the car and driver for the season. Testing is now a means from which to correlate to see if your other tools are accurate. You’ll get better, more consistent data from tunnels, CFD, sims and the like than from pounding around a track for a few days.

Really? How many times have teams come to grief because their modelling tools didnt corrolate with the real world? If the teams were allowed to go testing, they wouldn't refuse the opportunity in favour of sitting back at base playing on the computers.

[george1981]

The lack of on track testing was proposed to save costs before the cost cap era. This led to the better funded teams to spend huge amounts of money on simulators. Now the F1 simulators are a routine part of F1 car development. To the point that drivers are discussing how their new cars will perform based on the simulator response.