81 replies to this topic

[Grippy]

Damon often gets characterised as the less talented driver who made up for it with hard work. But when you put it like that, it indeed speak volumes.

Speak to any amateur driver and they’ll talk about just how good the professionals really are, but as fans, we pick apart that top 1%.

He was also a motorcycle dispatch rider and racer, neither of which you can do unless you have an intuitive feel for grip levels and control, so it's not like he went from road cars to racing cars.

[KWSN - DSM]

Obviously it is a sport for privileged, if you have a rich father, or a famous racing father, you have a lot more chances to get into F1. If you don't, you must be supremely talented.

 

However the sons of racing drivers need to be talented aswell... You can be a Max Verstappen, a Nico Rosberg, a Carlos Sainz Jr, but also you can be a Mick Schumacher, a Nelson Piquet Jr, or a Nico Prost.

 

Mick Schumacher the F3 and F2 Champion not talented?

Nelson Piquet Jr Formula E Champion, GP2 runner up, British F3 Champion not talented?

[RacingFan10]

Mick Schumacher the F3 and F2 Champion not talented?

Nelson Piquet Jr Formula E Champion, GP2 runner up, British F3 Champion not talented?

 

We are talking talented in F1 level, not F3/F2/GP2/FE

[Primo]

If I was to guess, I'd say that more than 99% of the motorsport talents will never do a single race.

[KWSN - DSM]

We are talking talented in F1 level, not F3/F2/GP2/FE

 

Both were/are better than several current F1 drivers, they are really not good examples.

[RacingFan10]

Both were/are better than several current F1 drivers, they are really not good examples.

 

Oh yes they could be marginally better than Stroll and Sargeant

[PayasYouRace]

Obviously it is a sport for privileged, if you have a rich father, or a famous racing father, you have a lot more chances to get into F1. If you don't, you must be supremely talented.

However the sons of racing drivers need to be talented aswell... You can be a Max Verstappen, a Nico Rosberg, a Carlos Sainz Jr, but also you can be a Mick Schumacher, a Nelson Piquet Jr, or a Nico Prost.

And those last three are also extremely talented drivers. You have to be to be to race at the levels they did. It’s just that they’re not quite at the top. We can justifiably say they weren’t good enough for Formula 1, but that’s so rarefied you need to be among the best of the best.

[messy]

I really struggle to believe that much in the genetics side of it. Nico Rosberg, Mick Schumacher, Max Verstappen, Carlos Sainz, do they grow up into top level drivers because they’re naturally more gifted because of their brilliant DNA or because they grew up in rich Motorsport families where their father’s source of riches was a highly successful (a stretch with Jos I guess) career in that they inevitably wanted to follow and had every access to from an early age, money no object and with a name that immediately opens doors? Say driver A is from that background and driver B is from a more ordinary background with no family links, where their parents have had to remortgage the house to pay for a Formula Ford car that they can’t afford to crash because of the cost of spares. Which driver is going to be faster?

You’ve obviously got to be talented, but I simply don’t believe the 20 guys that line up at the start of a Grand Prix are the 20 most talented racing drivers in the world, they’re just the best out of the ones that have had the opportunities. There are probably people on this forum right now, probably this thread, who could have been just as quick as some of those had they been pounding round kart tracks from age 6 or whatever.

[RacingFan10]

And those last three are also extremely talented drivers. You have to be to be to race at the levels they did. It’s just that they’re not quite at the top. We can justifiably say they weren’t good enough for Formula 1, but that’s so rarefied you need to be among the best of the best.

 

Talented yes, because if you are not talented at all you dont spend many years on karting in early age, that's for sure. But extremely... Well that separates the success and the failure

 

I really struggle to believe that much in the genetics side of it. 

 

I do believe in genetics, in racing or anything else. A racing driver (professional or just amateur) has more chances of having a son who likes driving and is talented at it, compared to someone else that doesn't drive or doesn't like it.

Same for anything else, football, other sports, crafts, arts, professions...

 

IIRC, Alonso and Hamilton fathers were not professional racing drivers but they were amateurs.

[Ali623]

You’ve obviously got to be talented, but I simply don’t believe the 20 guys that line up at the start of a Grand Prix are the 20 most talented racing drivers in the world, they’re just the best out of the ones that have had the opportunities. There are probably people on this forum right now, probably this thread, who could have been just as quick as some of those had they been pounding round kart tracks from age 6 or whatever.

In terms of theoretical potential, there’s no doubt hundreds of Verstappen-level talents out there that never get a proper chance in karting, let alone single-seater racing, because of the financial commitment involved.

[PayasYouRace]

Talented yes, because if you are not talented at all you dont spend many years on karting in early age, that's for sure. But extremely... Well that separates the success and the failure

And you named drivers who have successful professional careers.

[RacingFan10]

And you named drivers who have successful professional careers.

 

Not in F1 though, I thought this thread is about F1

[PayasYouRace]

Not in F1 though, I thought this thread is about F1

It is, and the answer to the OP’s question is, “they’re all very talented”.

[PlatenGlass]

I really struggle to believe that much in the genetics side of it. Nico Rosberg, Mick Schumacher, Max Verstappen, Carlos Sainz, do they grow up into top level drivers because they’re naturally more gifted because of their brilliant DNA or because they grew up in rich Motorsport families where their father’s source of riches was a highly successful (a stretch with Jos I guess) career in that they inevitably wanted to follow and had every access to from an early age, money no object and with a name that immediately opens doors? Say driver A is from that background and driver B is from a more ordinary background with no family links, where their parents have had to remortgage the house to pay for a Formula Ford car that they can’t afford to crash because of the cost of spares. Which driver is going to be faster?

You’ve obviously got to be talented, but I simply don’t believe the 20 guys that line up at the start of a Grand Prix are the 20 most talented racing drivers in the world, they’re just the best out of the ones that have had the opportunities. There are probably people on this forum right now, probably this thread, who could have been just as quick as some of those had they been pounding round kart tracks from age 6 or whatever.

 

Obviously with sons of F1 drivers it's difficult to tease apart genetics v environment, but it's worth noting that the rate of relatives getting into F1 is much higher than most other sports at the top level. But another interesting driver is Charles Leclerc. He is the godson of Jules Bianchi (F1 driver who tragically died as we all know), who himself was the great nephew of F1 driver Lucien Bianchi and grandson of racing driver Mauro Bianchi. Anyway, Leclerc isn't related to any of these people, but coincidentally has become a top F1 driver himself. I say coincidentally. It's obviously not just coincidental. Opportunity is a very big part of it.

 

So yes, I do think when you walk into a room full of people, there are probably a few people who could have been F1 drivers given the right opportunities. I'm not saying there is a Max or Lewis in every room, but potential F1 drivers, yes.

[KWSN - DSM]

I really struggle to believe that much in the genetics side of it. Nico Rosberg, Mick Schumacher, Max Verstappen, Carlos Sainz, do they grow up into top level drivers because they’re naturally more gifted because of their brilliant DNA or because they grew up in rich Motorsport families where their father’s source of riches was a highly successful (a stretch with Jos I guess) career in that they inevitably wanted to follow and had every access to from an early age, money no object and with a name that immediately opens doors? Say driver A is from that background and driver B is from a more ordinary background with no family links, where their parents have had to remortgage the house to pay for a Formula Ford car that they can’t afford to crash because of the cost of spares. Which driver is going to be faster?

You’ve obviously got to be talented, but I simply don’t believe the 20 guys that line up at the start of a Grand Prix are the 20 most talented racing drivers in the world, they’re just the best out of the ones that have had the opportunities. There are probably people on this forum right now, probably this thread, who could have been just as quick as some of those had they been pounding round kart tracks from age 6 or whatever.

 

Most F1 drivers are among the 50 best drivers in the world.

[messy]

Most F1 drivers are among the 50 best drivers in the world.

Yes. Because they’re top level, experienced athletes who’ve built up the skill and are operating at a really high level.

Most talented is a completely different thing, and that’s where I’m pretty sure the answer is a resounding no.

[noikeee]

Yes. Because they’re top level, experienced athletes who’ve built up the skill and are operating at a really high level.

Most talented is a completely different thing, and that’s where I’m pretty sure the answer is a resounding no.

It's a spectacular coincidence that the most of the best drivers in the world all pretty much seem to come from the 1% wealthiest people in the world, isn't it?

[George Costanza]

It's a spectacular coincidence that the most of the best drivers in the world all pretty much seem to come from the 1% wealthiest people in the world, isn't it?

Lewis and Michael didn't... And they both have 7 world championships.

Edited by George Costanza, 31 March 2024 - 23:47.

[DRSwing]

It's a spectacular coincidence that the most of the best drivers in the world all pretty much seem to come from the 1% wealthiest people in the world, isn't it?

 

 

Lewis and Michael didn't... And they both have 7 world championships.

 

 

I believe of all the F1 World Champions from the 2000s, only Max and Rosberg come from wealthy/driver father backgrounds .

Mika, Michael, Fernando, Kimi, Lewis, Jenson & Sebastian are all not born in rich families. 

[PlatenGlass]

Lewis and Michael didn't... And they both have 7 world championships.

Having a father willing to work two jobs and dedicate himself to furthering your career is a sort of privilege in itself.

I probably said this upthread, but Verstappen and Hamilton are possibly the two best-known drivers for having fathers help shape their career and they're the two most successful on the grid.

[Anderis]

I think I've seen some banal points mentioned in this thread.

 

Like there are some potentially talented people who've never got to try the motorsport. Is this news, really? How's that different to any other sport out there?

 

I believe I've had natural physical capabilities that could make me a successful sportsman in certain sports. I had insanely strong legs as a teenager, also my legs are proportionally longer compared to the rest of the body than that of an average human. I maintain very low body fat easily without having to use willpower and I would be very inclined to live a professional lifestyle as I'm not tempted by things like unhealthy food, alcohol and partying. Maybe I could be an extraordinary talent in a sport that involves jumping. Doesn't matter. I've never had an opportunity to try.

 

The only sports club that was feasibly accessible to me before I turned 19 was a soccer club. And I loved soccer, yet my experience with the sport was still disappointing. My parents were openly negative about my engagement in the sport. For a long time we didn't have a team for boys my age so I had to train and play with boys 2 years older than me (which is a huge difference for late pre-teens and early teens). Of course it wasn't fun to be playing at such a disadvantage. I was obviously a weaker player that the older boys, they didn't respect me and playing with them was not fun. I gave up and stopped attending trainings. A few years later they opened a team for boys my age. I was thrilled to join again, yet the experience was not fun again. The coaches didn't care. When we were training free kick shots, I was better than anyone else in my team by a large margin. None of the coaches bothered to realise and decide that I would be the one performing free kicks during matches. One of the coaches decided that I would be playing as a defender, which I didn't like as I've always preferred to run away from others than to chase them. I was also held down by low stamina, which was caused by my bad posture. I could've easily fixed it with right exercises (I did later in my life) but I've had no such help at a younger age.
So I was doomed to fail at becoming a sportsman, no matter how much I loved the sport and how naturally talented I could've been. No matter what sport I was the most talented in.

There;s no one single sport that's popular and easily accessible in every place in the world. Yes, motorsport has an additional bareer that's being a very expensive sport and inaccessible for people with low or even average income. But the end effect is not that different than for sports, where the bareer is low popularity and lack of available infrastructure. And there are personal issues like kids not being able to commit because of their life situation. Every sport has a limited talent pool. Some to a bigger extent than others but motorsport is not unique. I would think all of this was obvious enough for everyone.

Edited by Anderis, 01 April 2024 - 09:24.

[messy]

I don't think calling other people's discussion 'banal' is a particularly good way to get your point across, and even then I'm not sure I agree with it. I think F1 and motorsport in general is pretty much incomparable with football, athletics, any sport you care to mention really, in terms of the barrier for "normal people" to gain entry to even the most basic, grassroots starting point. It's on another planet. Being the son of a billionaire doesn't make you naturally more talented in a racing car but it does open all the doors to get the opportunities others will never have. And unlike say football, driving an F1 car is a completely different thing to driving a kart so to even get to the point where you can start to learn the skill, you need to get almost to the very top.

Edited by messy, 01 April 2024 - 10:34.

[garoidb]

Having a father willing to work two jobs and dedicate himself to furthering your career is a sort of privilege in itself.

I probably said this upthread, but Verstappen and Hamilton are possibly the two best-known drivers for having fathers help shape their career and they're the two most successful on the grid.

 

That was important, of course, but there's no way someone working two jobs can really finance the later stages of the racing ladder. McLaren and/or Mercedes (not sure which, really) were vitally important for those stages (as with other sponsors for other drivers). There's a bit of survivorship bias in looking at the guys who made it. More might be revealed by looking at why other karters or junior drivers did not advance. Including the sons of wealthy parents and of former F1 drivers who didn't make it all the way.

[ray b]

sure luck vs skill is a factor

vettel suddenly did not lose talent after 4 WDC IN A ROW

what he lost was some  syncopation some how with the car

a secret link with understanding anticipation feeling one with the ride

 

no idea how to make it happen

but if and when it does they are unbeatable

while it lasts

 

so is max now like vettel before more skilled or just more in tune with the car

that fits them more then their co-driver in the same car

 

maybe not totally 100% that but a big chunk of why one wins more

[Hrco42]

This is a question you could ask in any sport, not just F1. Almost half of the worlds population is located in India and China. So statistically, 10 out of 20 best athletes in any sport should come from those two countries and they should be near the top in any sport. However, we know it is not like that and they are successful in very few sports.

That's because, to become great in any sport, it is not enough just to have the talent, you also need to have the interest and opportunity. Why are Brazil, Germany, Italy always among the best in football? Are they so lucky that best footballers are always born in those countries? No, but football is very popular there, a lot of young boys dream of becoming new Pele, Kahn, Roberto Baggio and therefore start practicing football at a young age. And due to the high interest, there are a lot of youth football clubs and scouts watching those kids. And out of tens of thousands of kids every year, a very few actually have what it takes to become a top footballer. And a lot more are good enough to become a professional footballer in first, second or third league.

 

I would argue that right now in the world, there are more than 20 people who, if they had the same upbringing as Max Verstappen, would be even better drivers than him. Only, one of those people was born in rural China and will spend his entire life in the circle 10 km from where he was born, one was born in the USA and dreamed of becoming new Michael Jordan and therefore started playing basketball as a kid, one had no opportunity nor interest to go into racing and became software developer etc.

[7MGTEsup]

sure luck vs skill is a factor

vettel suddenly did not lose talent after 4 WDC IN A ROW

what he lost was some  syncopation some how with the car

a secret link with understanding anticipation feeling one with the ride

 

no idea how to make it happen

but if and when it does they are unbeatable

while it lasts

 

so is max now like vettel before more skilled or just more in tune with the car

that fits them more then their co-driver in the same car

 

maybe not totally 100% that but a big chunk of why one wins more

 

My own opinion of this is that certain drives have a narrow operational window where they perform their best (Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Vettel spring to mind) if they can get into that window they are almost unbeatable but if they fall out that window they seem very average. Conversly drivers like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen seem to have a much wider window where they can operate meaning they seem much more consistent across their career.

 

Just my humble opinion.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 04 April 2024 - 12:06.

[KWSN - DSM]

My own opinion of this is that certain drives have a narrow operational window where they perform their best (Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Vettel spring to mind) if they can get into that window they are almost unbeatable but if they fall out that window they seem very average. Conversly drivers like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen seem to have a much wider window where they can operate meaning they seem much more consistent across their career.

 

Just my humble opinion.

 

Mine as well.

[Sterzo]

This is a question you could ask in any sport, not just F1. Almost half of the worlds population is located in India and China. So statistically, 10 out of 20 best athletes in any sport should come from those two countries and they should be near the top in any sport. However, we know it is not like that and they are successful in very few sports.

That's because, to become great in any sport, it is not enough just to have the talent, you also need to have the interest and opportunity.

To give a slightly odd illustration of how true that is, the UK-dominated sport of snooker was targeted about 20 years ago by the Chinese government as being one they wanted to becomen prominent in. I heard a junior minister interviewed on the BBC. (He pronounced it "snocker" but his English was infinitely better than my Mandarin). Now there are 9 Chinese players in the top 40 players, in amongst the English.

[messy]

My own opinion of this is that certain drives have a narrow operational window where they perform their best (Hakkinen, Raikkonen and Vettel spring to mind) if they can get into that window they are almost unbeatable but if they fall out that window they seem very average. Conversly drivers like Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton and Verstappen seem to have a much wider window where they can operate meaning they seem much more consistent across their career.

Just my humble opinion.

Not sure on having Hakkinen in there - he was pretty consistent over his career. Always very fast, always prone to making mistakes. His career looks a bit lopsided because he got a race-winning package so late in his career. Raikkonen and Vettel are probably the best examples though, could be superheroes in one scenario/formula then looked really ordinary when knocked out of that perfect confluence of circumstances. I always think of Jorge Lorenzo in MotoGP too. At his best, when everything was right, he was faster than Rossi, Stoner, Marquez, everybody. But if one single thing knocked him off, he was often completely rubbish. Rossi was an all-rounder, strong but arguably not THE best in every department. There’s a lot to be said for being adaptable and consistent across all the different aspects that make a great driver and I’d probably say a driver who’s an 8/10 in all categories is more talented than a driver who’s a 10/10 in some and a 5/10 in others.

Edited by messy, 04 April 2024 - 19:58.

[7MGTEsup]

Not sure on having Hakkinen in there - he was pretty consistent over his career. Always very fast, always prone to making mistakes. His career looks a bit lopsided because he got a race-winning package so late in his career. Raikkonen and Vettel are probably the best examples though, could be superheroes in one scenario/formula then looked really ordinary when knocked out of that perfect confluence of circumstances. I always think of Jorge Lorenzo in MotoGP too. At his best, when everything was right, he was faster than Rossi, Stoner, Marquez, everybody. But if one single thing knocked him off, he was often completely rubbish. Rossi was an all-rounder, strong but arguably not THE best in every department. There’s a lot to be said for being adaptable and consistent across all the different aspects that make a great driver and I’d probably say a driver who’s an 8/10 in all categories is more talented than a driver who’s a 10/10 in some and a 5/10 in others.

 

I don't know I remember a few times when Hakkinen seemed to be absent when things weren't going exactly as he liked. Maybe that was to do with motivation rather than skill, but I suppose you could argue that keeping yourself motivated and fighting to the bitter end is a skill in itself.

[PlatenGlass]

Hakkinen was definitely absent at times. Periods where he was slower than Coulthard for several consecutive races, rather than the odd race here and there. There was a pattern to it.

[George Costanza]

Mika is lucky to even be alive after his 1995 crash. He said that several times. The fact that he won two championships is a bonus. But Mika was lightning quick over a single lap. Faster than Michael at times.

Edited by George Costanza, 06 April 2024 - 04:36.