57 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

Been a while since we had any manufacturers leaving F1…. Honda left but then aborted that and decided to stay… and we’ve now got Ford joining (sort of) and Audi coming in

F1 is fat on Manufacturers just now;

Ferrari
Mercedes
Renault
Honda
Ford (RBPT)
Audi

Which one will dump F1 first in your opinion… for ‘strategic’ reasons or just the board deciding it’s not worth it?

I reckon Renault is going to look shaky if they start the year with another dud. They are in eternal ‘reboots’ and never seem to make any real progress. Their success with Redbull must seem a long time back, and their dominant engines in the 90’s seem like a dream.

[noikeee]

Alpine definitely look like they're going nowhere.

 

It's sort of a 1985 situation. Or worse.

[Beri]

Renault would very much be plausible should Alpine tank it with the Hypercar programme as well. I cant see them leaving just 1 series should they pull the plug. But rather ditch it all together. But a sale of the team to another party and remain engine manufacturer, is something I think could be a thing for Renault as well.

[azza200]

Honda, Audi 

[ArnageWRC]

Hopefully Audi.......

[RedRabbit]

Well, it's quite a fallacy that manufacturers just dump F1 at will all the time. Most of them commit to quite a few years at a time, and usually withdraw after a major economic event. That's not unreasonable, and generally longer than any independents do.

[F1 Mike]

The thing is with Renault, they only appear from the outside to be half supportive of their team. You don't feel like they're trying to get the right people and structure in place for success. They're not going after big drivers either.

Stuck in the midfield without a strategy for success isn't good marketing for a big manufacturer

[Risil]

Stuck in the midfield without a strategy for success isn't good marketing for a big manufacturer

 

It's been working for Renault for the last 10 years. I find it mystifying but perhaps you can get a certain amount of value just by being there and not embarrassing yourself and blowing up every race.

[Nathan]

With 4 of the 6 factory teams being near self sustaining I doubt many will.  Ford is in bed with the best.  Honda has the history of quitting, so them.

[1player]

Cadillac

[pacificquay]

Renault's switch to the Alpine brand is why they'll not be ditching F1.

 

They get a little known marque loads of exposure for something that is now post cost-cap either cost neutral or even profitable.

[F1 Mike]

It's been working for Renault for the last 10 years. I find it mystifying but perhaps you can get a certain amount of value just by being there and not embarrassing yourself and blowing up every race.

Is it actually working though? What would be the impact if they weren't here? I suppose if the team is self sustaining it doesn't really make a difference either way.

[Nathan]

Cadillac

 

I was biting my tongue...

[Risil]

Is it actually working though? What would be the impact if they weren't here? I suppose if the team is self sustaining it doesn't really make a difference either way.

If it wasn't working my assumption is that Renault would've pulled out by now, when the evidence in fact shows that they take a continued (and occasionally heavy-handed) interest.

They haven't won many races but I don't know whether they're genuinely targeting race wins any more than Sauber or Williams are.

[F1matt]

Ford.

[Lennat]

Cadillac

 

Well, they haven't joined, so... 

 

I will not take them seriously as a manufacturer in F1 unless they build an engine (or at least do something resembling Ford's branding and actual technical partnership with RB, rather than just using another existing manufacturers engine).

 

I DO take Andretti seriously, but GM as sponsor is not that different to the Alfa Romeo involvement with Sauber, which certainly didn't feel like a works effort.

[DeKnyff]

Is there any manufacturer deeply involved, other than Ferrari?

Audi and Ford aren’t involved yet. Not 100% sure they will finally step in.

Honda has left.

Mercedes and Renault own teams, but AFAIK it’s merely a financial control, without a direct factory technical implication like Honda or Toyota in the past.

Of course, both Renault and Mercedes are engine manufacturers, but this is a different degree of implication and there is a long tradition in the sport of manufacturers supplying engines. It will remain.

And then, there is Ferrari, of course, but it’s an obviously special case.

[JRodrigues]

Not Ferrari.

[Gravelngrass]

They are all waiting for F1 to reach its peak so that they can exit with the highest possible profit. When that comes, probably everyone except Ferrari could potentially leave. Most are investment companies these days. They don’t care about the racing as much as about the $$. Maybe RBR is the most successful Red Bull sports team and they may have an incentive to stay just for marketing and PR alone. Mercedes, if they don’t start winning again, may see it as more detrimental to their brand than beneficial, and they won a lot so it wouldn’t be too bad for their image if they left. Alpine is relatively new both as a car brand and as a F1 brand, so even though they are a mess, they may also choose to stay.

[Risil]

Who are you referring to when you say "most"?

 

Williams and Sauber are definitely owned by investment companies, no serious argument there. Although Sauber's owners are about to get out in favour of Audi, which proves the soundness of their business model. Red Bull appear to be treating the Visa CashApp team like one right now, but they have political reasons to own a B team as well.

 

I think the others (Haas, Alpine, Aston Martin, McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes) are all in it for their own reasons. I don't see any common approaches there.

[Nathan]

Is there any manufacturer deeply involved, other than Ferrari?

Mercedes and Renault own teams, but AFAIK it’s merely a financial control, without a direct factory technical implication like Honda or Toyota in the past.

 

I think compared to the road car division, the Scuderia is operated by a completely different management team, and staffed by different people, and thus other than being in the same industrial complex, I don't see the operational difference.  Lots of German names on the board of MBGP and MAMGHPP     If one really wants to squeeze the juice, I think the 'N.V.' in Ferrari N.V. stands for 'naamloze vennootschap', which probably sounds funny said with an Italian accent.

[AncientLurker]

To be more timely and relevant, maybe the thread should be "Which manufacturer will F1 dump next?"

[Risil]

I think compared to the road car division, the Scuderia is operated by a completely different management team, and staffed by different people, and thus other than being in the same industrial complex, I don't see the operational difference.  Lots of German names on the board of MBGP and MAMGHPP     If one really wants to squeeze the juice, I think the 'N.V.' in Ferrari N.V. stands for 'naamloze vennootschap', which probably sounds funny said with an Italian accent.

Is that equally true for powertrains, I wonder? How we used to think about this kind of thing was that building F1 cars was a specialist art but F1 engines benefitted from a connection to manufacturer knowledge, personnel, capabilities, finance etc.

[juicy sushi]

I mean, the code could be valuable, in terms of getting the electric bit and the oily bit to talk to each other properly, but the F1 battery tech is not teaching anything to manufacturers, and the ICE is probably not teaching them anything new either, since no one is investing in building new ICE designs.

[ARTGP]

As far as I know, no one makes batteries anyway. It's all coming from suppliers like Panasonic, SAFT, and the A123 reboot. 

Edited by ARTGP, 27 February 2024 - 15:58.

[DeKnyff]

I think compared to the road car division, the Scuderia is operated by a completely different management team, and staffed by different people, and thus other than being in the same industrial complex, I don't see the operational difference. Lots of German names on the board of MBGP and MAMGHPP If one really wants to squeeze the juice, I think the 'N.V.' in Ferrari N.V. stands for 'naamloze vennootschap', which probably sounds funny said with an Italian accent.

Whatever. I see a much more direct link between the Ferrari road cars (assuming that Ferraris can be called “road cars”) and F1 than in the case of Mercedes or Renault. Call it subjectivity or even emotionality if you want, but Ferraris are not metal tins with four wheels which take you front point A to point B. They are much more than that and F1 is one of the things which make them special.

And to start with, both the Ferrari car factory and the F1 facility are at the same small town (17,000 people) of Maranello.

[cbo]

Cadillac comes in and Renault leaves when Andretti/Cadillac buys Alpine.

[juicy sushi]

Call it subjectivity or even emotionality if you want, but Ferraris are not metal tins with four wheels which take you front point A to point B. They are much more than that and F1 is one of the things which make them special.

Indeed, they are excellent university endowment funds for the children of Ferrari mechanics.

Edited by juicy sushi, 27 February 2024 - 16:35.

[Nathan]

The direct link is the F1 team comes up up with some great technology, and then the road car team is tasked with making a road car equivalent to cross brand.  Other than the action of the paddles, the F355 F1 transaxle bears no similarity to any semi-auto the Scuderia ever produced.  Even the paddles operated differently. They just crudely, for F1 standards, automated the manual like Toyota did with the MR-S and sent a memo to marketing.   I have a hard time thinking of what innovation Ferrari actually ever brought to F1... but like everything Ferrari all the F1 sourced road car stuff is smoke and mirrors... Just tell them a good emotive story that feeds the myth.

As for road car production ability, anything Ferrari can do Mercedes-Benz can do.  What has Ferrari done with road cars that Lamborghini hasn't? McLaren as a start up - twice - equaled what Ferrari was doing with no auto maker parent.  What makes them 'special' is how people get tied into the story, drama and mythology of the brand.
 

Is that equally true for powertrains, I wonder? How we used to think about this kind of thing was that building F1 cars was a specialist art but F1 engines benefitted from a connection to manufacturer knowledge, personnel, capabilities, finance etc.

 

I think in buying Ilmor Daimler got a specialized R&D engineering company they didn't have the equivalent of inhouse, and I think that can carry over to Brackley.  Like you, I believe that F1 is specialist art and I have to think within auto company's so large they surely have talent, equipment, resources to help the war effort.

Edited by Nathan, 27 February 2024 - 16:49.

[DeKnyff]

The direct link is the F1 team comes up up with some great technology, and then the road car team is tasked with making a road car equivalent to cross brand.  Other than the action of the paddles, the F355 F1 transaxle bears no similarity to any semi-auto the Scuderia ever produced.  Even the paddles operated differently. They just crudely, for F1 standards, automated the manual like Toyota did with the MR-S and sent a memo to marketing.   I have a hard time thinking of what innovation Ferrari actually ever brought to F1... but like everything Ferrari all the F1 sourced road car stuff is smoke and mirrors... Just tell them a good emotive story that feeds the myth.

As for road car production ability, anything Ferrari can do Mercedes-Benz can do.  What has Ferrari done with road cars that Lamborghini hasn't? McLaren as a start up - twice - equaled what Ferrari was doing with no auto maker parent.  What makes them 'special' is how people get tied into the story, drama and mythology of the brand.
 

 

I think in buying Ilmor Daimler got a specialized R&D engineering company they didn't have the equivalent of inhouse, and I think that can carry over to Brackley.  Like you, I believe that F1 is specialist art and I have to think within auto company's so large they surely have talent, equipment, resources to help the war effort.

 

Yes, much of the connection between F1 and Ferrari is emotional. That's why it is so important for Ferrari P&L account. Ferraris are bought on emotions, not on rational decisions. And if Alpine and Mercedes are in F1, it's because they want to generate emotions. There can be some technological reasons behind the supply of engines, but I don't think this is the case for full F1 teams. They are all in F1 for the same reason than Red Bull: the image and the association with dynamism and excellence. That they try to promote the sales of fizzy drinks or SUVs makes no difference. Only Ferrari keeps a relationship between the sport and the product they sell, even if this relationship is more a concept than real hardware components.

[George Costanza]

Ferrari will be in F1 forever.

[FirstnameLastname]

Ferrari will be in F1 forever.

Ferrari is F1 spelt backwards

Or something.

[azza200]

Engine Suppliers that have quit F1 numerous times over the years

 

Honda

Merc

Ford

Renault 

 

That only leaves Ferrari left as an engine supplier Audi i can't see ending up in F1 if anything they will end up back in Sportscars/Endurance racing again. The others have all left F1 in the past for various reasons if 2 go at end of one season F1 is ****ed considering those engine suppliers are in 4 cars each 

[peroa]

Why would anybody quit?

F1 is a business model now, not an endless money pit.

An entry is worth a fortune now.

[FirstnameLastname]

Why would anybody quit?
F1 is a business model now, not an endless money pit.
An entry is worth a fortune now.

This is true - staying in is probably advisable if you’ll ever want to use F1 for marketing in the future as the costs to rejoin would probably exclude every company now.

Farm your entry out for the years you don’t want the exposure - but keep a silent shareholding

[Clatter]

Is there any manufacturer deeply involved, other than Ferrari?

Audi and Ford aren’t involved yet. Not 100% sure they will finally step in.

Honda has left.

Mercedes and Renault own teams, but AFAIK it’s merely a financial control, without a direct factory technical implication like Honda or Toyota in the past.

Of course, both Renault and Mercedes are engine manufacturers, but this is a different degree of implication and there is a long tradition in the sport of manufacturers supplying engines. It will remain.

And then, there is Ferrari, of course, but it’s an obviously special case.

 

Honda haven't really left. They still supply RB with PU's, and will be supplying Aston from 2026.

[FullThrottleF1]

Hopefully all of them. I want to see Liberty fail

[HistoryFan]

I think Alpine. They are really disappointing.

 

2nd Audi

[FNG]

Audi

[FNG]

Why would anybody quit?

F1 is a business model now, not an endless money pit.

An entry is worth a fortune now.

 

Changing the engine rules every couple of years costs them close to a Billion. Isn't that the cost to developing an engine? There is no break even or profit in the massive investment into engines. And if they keep changing it every 5 years, and they aren't winning, I can see that being cause to leave. Which is why I think Audi won't even make the grid. They have to build an engine from scratch. That will be a lot of money to be at the bottom of the grid for the first 5 years.

[azza200]

Why would anybody quit?

F1 is a business model now, not an endless money pit.

An entry is worth a fortune now.

 

difference is Manufactures eventually will reach a point where the F1 program is becoming to costly and they will have to eventually leave there is a limit and it has happened before. Toyota comes to mind straight away 

[andysaint]

Who are you referring to when you say "most"?

Williams and Sauber are definitely owned by investment companies, no serious argument there. Although Sauber's owners are about to get out in favour of Audi, which proves the soundness of their business model. Red Bull appear to be treating the Visa CashApp team like one right now, but they have political reasons to own a B team as well.

I think the others (Haas, Alpine, Aston Martin, McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes) are all in it for their own reasons. I don't see any common approaches there.

Toto Wolff is a business man and is an investor. Ineos (Jim Ratcliffe-Man Utd) is also an Equal investor. Mercedes Benz put some money but I don’t think anywhere as much as people think.

Alpine is partially owned by investors. Ryan Reynolds and others have brought in.

Haas is there to sell tools. If Gene Haas wasn’t selling tools I doubt he would be there.

The real genuine racing teams on the grid are Ferrari and McLaren. All others do have some ulterior motive and investors. Red Bull - to sell energy drinks. Aston Martin, a sports investment company now have invested in them.

[loki]

McLaren…

[loki]

Well, they haven't joined, so... 

 

I will not take them seriously as a manufacturer in F1 unless they build an engine (or at least do something resembling Ford's branding and actual technical partnership with RB, rather than just using another existing manufacturers engine).

 

I DO take Andretti seriously, but GM as sponsor is not that different to the Alfa Romeo involvement with Sauber, which certainly didn't feel like a works effort.

They’ve been admitted as an engine manufacturer for 2028.  They’ve indicated and perhaps desire now that Andretti got the thumbs down to enter in 2026 but regs prevent them prior to 2028

[Nathan]

Toto Wolff is a business man and is an investor. Ineos (Jim Ratcliffe-Man Utd) is also an Equal investor. Mercedes Benz put some money but I don’t think anywhere as much as people think.

Alpine is partially owned by investors. Ryan Reynolds and others have brought in.

Haas is there to sell tools. If Gene Haas wasn’t selling tools I doubt he would be there.

The real genuine racing teams on the grid are Ferrari and McLaren. All others do have some ulterior motive and investors. Red Bull - to sell energy drinks. Aston Martin, a sports investment company now have invested in them.

 

Ferrari is a publicly traded company, the largest shareholder is Exor Investments.  McLaren's majority shareholder is the investment fund of the Bahrain government.

Why can't a billionaire also be a genuine racer?  I think you need to understand the concept of holding companies and their purposes, and that while Exor, Longbow, Yee Tree are family/group investment companies they are also used to own assets that create real and accounting losses to help offset taxes against profitable ventures also owned within the group.  No point taking a tax loss personally if you live in Monaco.    The assets of most wealthy people are held in trusts and holdcos, not in their names.  Wolff's MBGP shares are owned through 'Motorsport Invest Ltd', Niki's shares were owned by a Holdco named after him.  

Edited by Nathan, 27 February 2024 - 21:16.

[DeKnyff]

 

Why can't a billionaire also be a genuine racer?

 

Wasn't investing in motor racing the easiest way for a billionaire to become a millionaire?

[Melbourne Park]

The direct link is the F1 team comes up up with some great technology, and then the road car team is tasked with making a road car equivalent to cross brand.  Other than the action of the paddles, the F355 F1 transaxle bears no similarity to any semi-auto the Scuderia ever produced.  Even the paddles operated differently. They just crudely, for F1 standards, automated the manual like Toyota did with the MR-S and sent a memo to marketing.   I have a hard time thinking of what innovation Ferrari actually ever brought to F1... but like everything Ferrari all the F1 sourced road car stuff is smoke and mirrors... Just tell them a good emotive story that feeds the myth.

As for road car production ability, anything Ferrari can do Mercedes-Benz can do.  What has Ferrari done with road cars that Lamborghini hasn't? McLaren as a start up - twice - equaled what Ferrari was doing with no auto maker parent.  What makes them 'special' is how people get tied into the story, drama and mythology of the brand.

 

It's often said that F1 doesn't assist road car technology. And vice versa - road car tech doesn't assist F1. But Mercedes engine for this formula was ground breaking, an. d used a lot of Mercedes in house engineering expertise - a case IMO of road car expertise helping an F1 team.

 

As for the other way around - F1 helping road cars - there are lots of benefits IMO. Weight saving, composites, brakes, cooling, aero testing, safety, tyre behaviour, to name a few. Tech may filter down eventually. The issue for F1 not assisting road cars, comes from its restrictive rules. Imagine if a new rule for 2028 was a to have car less than 4 metres long, less than 2 metres long, using today's tyres on 4 wheels, weighing no more than 770 kg meeting today's safety standards, an input limit on energy to the engine, with 6 power plants per car allowed the first year, the rest is quite open, and whose fuel was hydrogen . We just might see a safe hydrogen car. But the rules don't allow much innovation relevant to road cars. So essentially, F1 is a marketing tool inside a very restricted formula. 

Edited by Melbourne Park, 27 February 2024 - 22:48.

[flyboym3]

Nobody.

The fight is to get in and Liberty say non to them.

[Gravelngrass]

Toto Wolff is a business man and is an investor. Ineos (Jim Ratcliffe-Man Utd) is also an Equal investor. Mercedes Benz put some money but I don’t think anywhere as much as people think.

Alpine is partially owned by investors. Ryan Reynolds and others have brought in.

Haas is there to sell tools. If Gene Haas wasn’t selling tools I doubt he would be there.

The real genuine racing teams on the grid are Ferrari and McLaren. All others do have some ulterior motive and investors. Red Bull - to sell energy drinks. Aston Martin, a sports investment company now have invested in them.

Thanks for answering in my stead. I would add “Aston Martin” to the ones you mentioned. Maybe Stroll has a deeper interest, namely his son winning something, but if it doesn’t happen, I could see him exiting too.

So yeah, aside from the fact that they have been the only team present in every championship, I can see why Ferrari command such influence. It would seem them and McLaren are potentially the only ones one could argue will stay as long as the championship exists.

[MRX94]

As a Ferrari fan, I have sometimes been wondering about the day when they have finally had enough of getting humiliated by Mercedes and an energy drinks maker and pull the plug. Sounds insane, but they don't need to be in F1 to sell cars anymore, those things sell themselves pretty well these days, in fact that side of the business is now the clear winner between the two. They don't even put the Ferrari WCC plaque in the cars anymore I don't think, because it's too embarrassing. The F1 team is no longer the crown jewel of Ferrari.

 

But seriously, it's probably going to be Alpine.