22 replies to this topic

[PCC]

I was telling someone about Doug Nye's wonderful story of Graham Hill's enthusiastic non-embrace of early, primitive 'black box' technology in 1965 (reported in Motor Sport). It opened the question of when - or even if - data logging became common in F1 pre-telemetry. I think telemetry became widespread in the late '80s, but was there much data logging before that?

I know we have a thread on the use of computers, but it doesn't seem to address this question.

[Michael Ferner]

IIRC, Ken Tyrrell and his team used data logging in 1978, it was news at the time. Don't know about the extent, though. Ferrari also had some data logging equipment at their Fiorano test track about that time frame, and Porsche used it in endurance racing. All from hazy memories of late seventies magazine articles.

[sabrejet]

Start with Jim Hall and work forward from there til F1 "discovered" it...

[Richard Jenkins]

Dr Karl Kempf worked with Tyrrell from 1977 to 1980 in data gathering, logging and analysis, which was widely seen at the time as pioneering.
However, he also worked with Ferrari from 1976-1978 so it wasn't just a Tyrrell thing.
There's a whole section dedicated to it in the Tyrrell book.

[Stephen W]

Dr Karl Kempf worked with Tyrrell from 1977 to 1980 in data gathering, logging and analysis, which was widely seen at the time as pioneering.
However, he also worked with Ferrari from 1976-1978 so it wasn't just a Tyrrell thing.
There's a whole section dedicated to it in the Tyrrell book.

 

I attended a talk by Kempf that was organised by the aerospace company I worked for. Everyone else there was a there to see about the nuts & bolts of the project and how it could be used in their work. I was the only racing fan present. I asked several questions specific to his time at Tyrrell and got some very interesting answers. 

[2F-001]

Start with Jim Hall and work forward from there til F1 "discovered" it...

Indeed: I don't know if it was a 'first', but there are pictures of Jim Hall sitting in his Chaparral 2 with data-logging of some description being recorded on track on a small reel-to-reel machine in the cockpit - this in the early-to-mid sixties. Presumably some GM input there - the similarly GM-aligned Penske operation also used the 'black lake' testing and data-gathering facilities that Chevrolet had the run of.

Edited by 2F-001, 10 March 2024 - 09:42.

[2F-001]

Karl Kempf was the name I was wracking my brains for when I read Peter's opening post. But was he implementing data-recording - to be downloaded and analysed after the fact - or live telemetry? I had assumed the former...

[Roryswood]

Ford GT40 , I have seen a photo of Bruce running a GT40 with data logging equipment at Le Mans it could have been the J car

[Doug Nye]

Don't forget that long before computer technology became effective reality Auto Union ran a mechanical graph-recording system during testing mainly, developed I believe - from dicey memory - by senior engineer Dr Eberan von Eberhorst, later of postwar Cisitalia, ERA, Jowett and Aston Martin fame.  He and Maurice Olley really established and defined mathematically the preferable basics of suspension behaviour and its effect upon car cornering power and handling.  Eberan is also credited with having explored early side-skirted (or at least 'fenced') underfloor aerodynamic form, in that case on Auto Union's later (ill-fated) speed record car programme.  He was a clever old stick. And I would be confident that Rudi Uhlenhaut and his colleagues at Mercedes-Benz would not have been far behind in 'data recording'.

 

DCN

[Richard Jenkins]

Karl Kempf was the name I was wracking my brains for when I read Peter's opening post. But was he implementing data-recording - to be downloaded and analysed after the fact - or live telemetry? I had assumed the former...

It ended up being a bit of both, in truth.

There were certain things with camber settings, for example, that they got live data from.

[PCC]

Thank you all, this is very interesting information. It sounds like data logging was pioneered very early by Auto Union, and again by Jim Hall and BRM (what ever became of that experiment? Dig Graham's view eventually prevail?), but didn't become common until the late '70s, with telemetry following about a decade later.

 

The progress in this area has been extraordinary. But to tell you the truth, I find that the more precise racing becomes as a science, the less interesting I find it as a sport. But maybe that's just me.

[PCC]

Start with Jim Hall and work forward from there til F1 "discovered" it...

Like quite a few other things....

[Charlieman]

Don't forget that long before computer technology became effective reality Auto Union ran a mechanical graph-recording system during testing mainly...

The paper tachograph (time stamped activity data) was first used on commercial vehicles in the 1920s, having appeared on locomotives in the 1840s. 

 

An analogue electronic recording system was just about possible at the birth of Formula One, owing to improvements in valve technology and magnetic tapes. The technology for live transmission was similarly possible (the radio teletype was developed in the 1930s and the car phone was immediately post war) but probably too heavy. A compact radio system would have been possible after 1955 with the commercial availability of transistors.

[Roger Clark]

Ford GT40 , I have seen a photo of Bruce running a GT40 with data logging equipment at Le Mans it could have been the J car

There was a photo of him in the Mk 4 with data logging in the Autosport report of the 1967 Le Mans test weekend.

[PCC]

Postscript: the person with whom I had the (virtual) exchange that inspired this thread has become the newest TNF member, registered as 'JakobusVdL'. for some reason, he's unable to post yet (is there a time lag between registering and being allowed to post?), but hopefully that will be remedied soon!

[rl1856]

Jim Hall's use of telemetry may have come from or was very heavily influenced by Zora Arkus Duntov's use of recording equipment while developing various Corvette racing models.   Chevy was definitely using telemetry during the CERV-1, CERV-ll  and Corvette Grand Sport programs.  All 3 vehicles were developed prior to the development of the Chaparral ll in the fall of 1963 and Hall's use of data equipment in 1964-65-66.  

[VWV]

I recall reading an Road & Track article July 1984 written by Peter Wright about a test at Paul Ricard with the Lotus 78 with Mario Andretti, Ronnie Peterson and Jackie Stewart who was testing current F1 cars for a series. The car had sensors and data loggers which were used to create G-G diagrams though corners to compare the 3 drivers driving style.

[2F-001]

Jim Hall's use of telemetry may have come from or was very heavily influenced by Zora Arkus Duntov's use of recording equipment while developing various Corvette racing models.   Chevy was definitely using telemetry during the CERV-1, CERV-ll  and Corvette Grand Sport programs.  All 3 vehicles were developed prior to the development of the Chaparral ll in the fall of 1963 and Hall's use of data equipment in 1964-65-66.  

Quite a bit of this touched on in Paul van Valkenburgh's book - well, in some detail actually.

Edited by 2F-001, 11 March 2024 - 15:35.

[VWV]

 Dr. Karl Kempf's story.

 

  https://racer.com/20...1-data-logging/

[Sterzo]

^ What an utterly fascinating (and entertaining) story. No superlative is quite good enough...

[Doug Nye]

That Karl Kempf piece by Mark Glendinning is superb - thanks for highlighting it.

 

I did an 'Autosport' piece with Karl during the Tyrrell period.  Can't find it now.  It won't be a patch on Mark's - and that's not only down to corporate secrecy back then - 

 

DCN

[Michael Ferner]

Loved the bit about "you never go through the same corner twice"! Good to see old-school philosophy put to practical use - I don't think he said that unwittingly, he's probably read Heraclitus and knew of the significance. 

[small block]

That Karl Kempf piece by Mark Glendinning is superb - thanks for highlighting it.

 

I did an 'Autosport' piece with Karl during the Tyrrell period.  Can't find it now. 

 

DCN

It's in the March 3 1977 issue of Autosport.