58 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

After Haas used Magnussen to slow the pack up and give Hulkenberg a pitstops worth of gap… is there the chance that more teams will now seize this ‘tactic’, and is it a legitimate sporting thing to do? Obviously folk will say ‘just overtake them then’ but it’s the tactic of backing folk up on tighter corners and acceleration zones where there’s no space to pass. There’s quite a few circuits now where this sort of tactic could easily come into play - especially after seeing how effective it was last weekend

[William Hunt]

If they don't change the rules, for sure I can see this happening. Now backing up a pack is not illegal at all, also not under older rules. What is problematic is doing an overtake that causes a 5 or 10 second penalty and not giving the place back whilst also backing up the pack.

Edited by William Hunt, 12 March 2024 - 14:14.

[tyker]

After Haas used Magnussen to slow the pack up and give Hulkenberg a pitstops worth of gap… is there the chance that more teams will now seize this ‘tactic’, and is it a legitimate sporting thing to do? Obviously folk will say ‘just overtake them then’ but it’s the tactic of backing folk up on tighter corners and acceleration zones where there’s no space to pass. There’s quite a few circuits now where this sort of tactic could easily come into play - especially after seeing how effective it was last weekend

He did it at one point by cutting the chicane to keep his position and getting a 10 second penalty to go with his other 10 second penalty, the ineffectness of penalties.

[William Hunt]

Off course if you either gain a position or manage to keep a position because you cut the track / cut a chicane, then there always should be a give the position back order from the stewards on top of the time penalty if they had given one (or not).

[1player]

Please, not everything has to be discouraged by rules. We need more racing and less lawyering.

It's annoying for the cars behind, but this is motorsport. It's their entire job to overtake the car in front. This may open a larger discussion on whether the cars still suffer from dirty air and have a hard time overtaking, and the FIA should ensure we can enjoy nimble cars instead of a procession, but whatever Magnussen did is the name of the game.

[KWSN - DSM]

They should when help team, teammate or themselves, at it's core it is racing as racing should be done, not just brute force or speed, but cunning use of car, track, tires and talent. No one should have a problem or issue with this, on the contrary.

 

Sainz were lauded

Hamilton tried to win a World Championship

Alonso did it and was praised

 

Magnussen did it and netted a very, very important point for his team by racing in all aspects of what racing is.

[William Hunt]

During the last GP of 2010, at Abu Dhabi, Alonso in his Ferrari was stuck behind Vitaly Petrov's Renault all race. That caused Alonso to lose his chance to win the world title that year, he ended that race in 7th, behind the Renault duo Kubica-Petrov, and came 4 points short on Vettel. But Petrov was perfectly entitled to fight for his position and block Alonso.

[Muppetmad]

For those who gain/maintain places unduly, giving up that place needs to be part of the penalty.

[KWSN - DSM]

During the last GP of 2010, at Abu Dhabi, Alonso in his Ferrari was stuck behind Vitaly Petrov's Renault all race. That caused Alonso to lose his chance to win the world title that year, he ended that race in 7th, behind the Renault duo Kubica-Petrov, and came 4 points short on Vettel. But Petrov was perfectly entitled to fight for his position and block Alonso.

 

Much as you obviously dislike it, Magnussen were equally entitled to fight for his position and block Albon, he incurred a penalty and paid the price in shape of 10 seconds - You should have zero problem with Magnussen, who did exactly what the rules allowed him to do within the confines of getting a penalty, you issue can only be with the rules.

 

And before I am made (even more) out to be a Magnussen apologist, this is what I think the rules should be:

 

https://forums.autos...ead/?p=10532319

[TomNokoe]

Magnussen was only able to execute this by illegally overtaking Tsunoda and refusing to give back the position, thus positioning himself at the head of the queue.

I may start my own thread, but the old-fashioned drive-through penalty would have nipped this so-called "strategy" right in the bud.

Personally, as with Perez in AD21, I think it falls under the "unnecessarily slowly / erratic driving" regulation, but it usually gets a pass because it's novel/funny/exciting. A key distinction would be Alonso vs Hamilton Hungary 21, where he held Hamilton up through legitimate defence. Bah!

[Masterfail]

If not relying on dirty tactics there is nothing wrong with trying to help your team. But Magnussen did rely on dirty tactics. On top of that he even got rewarded for it since he wasn't passed by Verstappen, making his penalty obsolete. Great rules.

[KWSN - DSM]

Just remember this mean you can never complain over penalties being given according to the rules anymore.

[Nathan]

I don't think teams have just figured this out. It will only work at certain tracks and was effective for Haas because they had the top speed advantage to be slow out of slow corners.

[KWSN - DSM]

I don't think teams have just figured this out. It will only work at certain tracks and was effective for Haas because they had the top speed advantage to be slow out of slow corners.

 

Exactly as they had in Bahrain where neither RB could not overtake Magnussen soft tires, hard tires and DRS.

 

Edit to add 'not' in front overtake. 

Edited by KWSN - DSM, 12 March 2024 - 15:26.

[William Hunt]

Much as you obviously dislike it, Magnussen were equally entitled to fight for his position and block Albon, he incurred a penalty and paid the price in shape of 10 seconds - You should have zero problem with Magnussen, who did exactly what the rules allowed him to do within the confines of getting a penalty, you issue can only be with the rules.

 

And before I am made (even more) out to be a Magnussen apologist, this is what I think the rules should be:

 

https://forums.autos...ead/?p=10532319

 

Whaaaat?  Why do you always pick on me, thinking that I dislike Kevin when I obviously don't. Did you even read what I wrote about Kevin in the Haas thread???? .....

[TomNokoe]

Magnussen's Sector 1 times, laps 23-47

36.375
36.264
36.561
36.579
36.586
36.373
36.072
36.329
36.500
36.336
36.290 Hulkenberg pits
34.753
34.681
34.509
34.443
34.416
34.225
34.213
34.044
33.954
33.941
34.118
33.856
33.970
33.881

[PayasYouRace]

Apparently this is the first time someone has backed up the pack. Never happened before, so a can of worms has been unlocked.

No that’s not right. This has always been a bit of a tactic when overtaking is difficult. We’ve even seen drivers use it to back their rivals into the pack. Remember Hamilton and Rosberg in Abu Dhabi?

[MikeTekRacing]

teams use it - it's super hard not to be overtaken though.
It's fair game as long as they keep it fair. There is (and should be) no rule against driving slower than your maximum and defending hard

[Oulton]

They should when help team, teammate or themselves, at it's core it is racing as racing should be done, not just brute force or speed, but cunning use of car, track, tires and talent. No one should have a problem or issue with this, on the contrary.

 

Sainz were lauded

Hamilton tried to win a World Championship

Alonso did it and was praised

 

Magnussen did it and netted a very, very important point for his team by racing in all aspects of what racing is.

 

I think the best example of defensive driving to help your team-mate was Alonso in Hungary 2021, but then no-one has his race-craft and guile, he didn't do anything untoward like Magnussen did (off track to stay ahead)

[KWSN - DSM]

Whaaaat?  Why do you always pick on me, thinking that I dislike Kevin when I obviously don't. Did you even read what I wrote about Kevin in the Haas thread???? .....

 

I am not always picking on you, as you can see in the post you reply here I very much want draconian penalties, but I am firmly of the belief when racing within and according to rules and regulations then the jumping up and down by posters is postering against better knowledge.

 

I am a fan of Magnussen, if I had my way he would have been in the pits serving a penalty within 2 laps - But my way is not how F1 is in 2024, so I naturally back ANY driver giving us great racing, while following the rules - Which Magnussen ver much did, accepted 2 penalties then proceeded to race those trying to overtake him.

[KWSN - DSM]

Magnussen's Sector 1 times, laps 23-47

36.375
36.264
36.561
36.579
36.586
36.373
36.072
36.329
36.500
36.336
36.290 Hulkenberg pits
34.753
34.681
34.509
34.443
34.416
34.225
34.213
34.044
33.954
33.941
34.118
33.856
33.970
33.881

 

That is how you race.

[Clatter]

Nothing wrong with backing up the pack, if done legally. Going off to maintain a position just shows the stupidity of time penalties. They could have given Magnusson a 10 minute penalty and he wouldn't have cared. The only good thing you can say is that they are starting to listen and have at least increased the penalty from 5 to 10 seconds.

[PayasYouRace]

Personally, as with Perez in AD21, I think it falls under the "unnecessarily slowly / erratic driving" regulation, but it usually gets a pass because it's novel/funny/exciting. A key distinction would be Alonso vs Hamilton Hungary 21, where he held Hamilton up through legitimate defence. Bah!

He was driving slowly. Clearly not unnecessarily so as he wasn’t overtaken, and it wasn’t erratic.

[KWSN - DSM]

Magnussen managed a 10th in Hungary some years ago, by employing same brilliant racing.

[ATM]

I don't see any problem with the slowing down itself, it's racing. I do see however a loop in the penalties when the place is not given back as it should have been. Maybe we can invent a new penalty, like a drive through the pits at reduced speed, no stopping; that should solve it.

[Autodromo]

Alonso did this at Monaco as well.  I guess at some point you just go ahead and pass off track at the Nouvelle chicane and pull away.  This is why tracks like this suck.

[Risil]

Magnussen was only able to execute this by illegally overtaking Tsunoda and refusing to give back the position, thus positioning himself at the head of the queue.

I may start my own thread, but the old-fashioned drive-through penalty would have nipped this so-called "strategy" right in the bud.

Personally, as with Perez in AD21, I think it falls under the "unnecessarily slowly / erratic driving" regulation, but it usually gets a pass because it's novel/funny/exciting. A key distinction would be Alonso vs Hamilton Hungary 21, where he held Hamilton up through legitimate defence. Bah!

In Abu Dhabi 2016 could Nico Rosberg have passed Hamilton off track and then built a 5 second lead over the slower non-Mercedes cars behind?

[Beri]

Backing up the pack for the good of the team.. Since when is that called unfair driving? It is the perfect tactic that has been used ever since the inception of Grand Prix motor racing. People complaining should find another obsession to follow. Netflix crowd.

[Montie]

After Haas used Magnussen to slow the pack up and give Hulkenberg a pitstops worth of gap… is there the chance that more teams will now seize this ‘tactic’, and is it a legitimate sporting thing to do? Obviously folk will say ‘just overtake them then’ but it’s the tactic of backing folk up on tighter corners and acceleration zones where there’s no space to pass. There’s quite a few circuits now where this sort of tactic could easily come into play - especially after seeing how effective it was last weekend

Other teams and drivers has done it before, Alonso fx. has done it in Monaco and Hungary. Now Magnussen does it and it’s an issue, funny huh?

[TomNokoe]

Other teams and drivers has done it before, Alonso fx. has done it in Monaco and Hungary. Now Magnussen does it and it’s an issue, funny huh?

The key issue for me is that he was already penalised, but chose to take half the grid with him.

[Autodromo]

Other teams and drivers has done it before, Alonso fx. has done it in Monaco and Hungary. Now Magnussen does it and it’s an issue, funny huh?

Again, I think part of the problem is that he went off track to do so.

[Montie]

I think the best example of defensive driving to help your team-mate was Alonso in Hungary 2021, but then no-one has his race-craft and guile, he didn't do anything untoward like Magnussen did (off track to stay ahead)

Alonso did defend aggressively against Hamilton, they even made contact, so that was dirty from Alonso as well?

[Montie]

The key issue for me is that he was already penalised, but chose to take half the grid with him.

Blame the rules not the driver that races by the rules.

[Montie]

Again, I think part of the problem is that he went off track to do so.

He went of track before falling back though.

Also as I see it, when going off while trying to overtake Tsunoda, I saw Tsunoda squeezing him against the wall. They were alongside each other, Magnussen on the dirty side and having to turn sharply caused him to go off track, he did not cut the track on purpose. If he had backed off coming to the turn they might have collided instead.

[Anderis]

Backing up the pack is a legitimate strategy.

 

Backing up drivers you don't fight for position with should not be a legitimate strategy. That's why lapped cars get blue flags. And that's why you should always give drive-through penalties for offences related to fighting for position. Time penalties are garbage.

Edited by Anderis, 12 March 2024 - 20:09.

[Autodromo]

He went of track before falling back though.

Also as I see it, when going off while trying to overtake Tsunoda, I saw Tsunoda squeezing him against the wall. They were alongside each other, Magnussen on the dirty side and having to turn sharply caused him to go off track, he did not cut the track on purpose. If he had backed off coming to the turn they might have collided instead.

There was an earlier (?) incident at T1 where Magnussen went completely off track due to braking too late but he did not give the position back.

[Burtros]

It’s not hugely different to what Alonso did to Hamilton at Hungary 21 really.

Backing up rivals to benefit a teammate has always been a thing, not regular but still a thing.

Magnusson did an excellent job of it, illegal overtake on Yuki aside.

[PayasYouRace]

Given Magnussen's penalty, would race control have been justified in showing him blue flags to let faster cars by? They weren't fighting for position after all.

[Oulton]

Alonso did defend aggressively against Hamilton, they even made contact, so that was dirty from Alonso as well?

 

I don't recall any dirty driving. Contact with Hamilton you say? Enough said.

[Oulton]

Blame the rules not the driver that races by the rules.

 

I don't condone what Magnussen did (the off-track bit only, the defensive stuff is fine) but I can imagine doing exactly what he did, ie. not giving up the place because I haven't been ordered to. Any driver will get away with what he can.

[MikeTekRacing]

Given Magnussen's penalty, would race control have been justified in showing him blue flags to let faster cars by? They weren't fighting for position after all.

what do you mean? 

They were fighting for position and he actually finished in front of most of them

[Autodromo]

what do you mean? 

They were fighting for position and he actually finished in front of most of them

I believe that was somewhat artificial, however, because Verstappen lapped a couple of the back markers and the time penalty does not put you behind a lapped car (because they complete one less lap)

 

Edit:  nevertheless, you are correct that they were fighting for position.

Edited by Autodromo, 12 March 2024 - 21:47.

[Stephane]

did someone mention Villeneuve Suzuka 97 yet ?

[BoDarvelle]

teams use it - it's super hard not to be overtaken though.
It's fair game as long as they keep it fair. There is (and should be) no rule against driving slower than your maximum and defending hard

 

A lot of people ignore the fact Mag was faster than those behind him. He easily pulled away after Hulk pitted.

 

No different than every other time this tactic has been used.

 

Was there a thread made for this? I don't recall so much pearl clutching when Alonso backed up over half the field.

[BoDarvelle]

Given Magnussen's penalty, would race control have been justified in showing him blue flags to let faster cars by? They weren't fighting for position after all.

 

lol no

[MikeTekRacing]

A lot of people ignore the fact Mag was faster than those behind him. He easily pulled away after Hulk pitted.

 

No different than every other time this tactic has been used.

 

Was there a thread made for this? I don't recall so much pearl clutching when Alonso backed up over half the field.

I will say it again that, for me, the biggest issue was jumping Tsunoda offtrack to keep his position.

That has to somehow become illegal, otherwise you could always cut a chicane, get back in front and mess with the others

[Montie]

There was an earlier (?) incident at T1 where Magnussen went completely off track due to braking too late but he did not give the position back.

No.

[expert]

For those who gain/maintain places unduly, giving up that place needs to be part of the penalty.

This.  The problem wasn't KMag using backing up tactics by itself, it's that he was only in the position to back up by breaking other rules.

 

Admittedly the risk of fiddling around here risks bringing too much room for interpretation back into stewards hands and a different set of problems emerging.  Perhaps we need to see more cases of it before rushing to judgement.

[Montie]

Any other team would do exactly what Haas did, that is the bottom line. Don’t tell me that any of the other teams would tell driver to pull over and let the rest of the field past. And RB complaining and claiming it is unsportsmanlike, give me a break, they would have done same.

[scheivlak]

Any other team would do exactly what Haas did, that is the bottom line. Don’t tell me that any of the other teams would tell driver to pull over and let the rest of the field past. And RB complaining and claiming it is unsportsmanlike, give me a break, they would have done same.

. Anyone who has no problems with obstruction has no reason to complain about complaining. Complaining about obstruction is just as much part of the game as obstruction itself