124 replies to this topic

[sabrejet]

This cropped up on a well-known social media site and I didn't know where to look. I'm no Aus GP aficionado, but I know who Frank Matich is, and I've heard of Warwick Farm. And I know there are others.

 

https://live.staticf...3e5e9b9df_b.jpg

 

 

Are we doomed?

 

[Tim Murray]

I believe it’s still the case that the Joneses (Stan and Alan) and the Ascaris (Antonio and Alberto) are the only father-and-son pairings to have won their national GP.

[john aston]

Same as it ever was. I can still remember who won races I attended 50 years ago but the 21 year old me had no idea (and little interest ) in who had won the same race in 1924. 

[Ray Bell]

There have been several Australian winners of the Australian Grand Prix...

 

1927 - Geoff Meredith

1929 - Arthur Terdich

1930, 1932, 1933 - Bill Thompson

1931 - Carl Junker

1934 - Bob Lea-Wright

1935, 1936/7 - Les Murphy

1939 - Alan Tomlinson

1947 - Bill Murray

1948 - Frank Pratt

1949 - John Crouch

1950, 1952, 1953 - Doug Whiteford

1951 - Warwick Pratley

1954, 1957, 1958, 1962 - Lex Davison

1955, 1963, 1964 - Jack Brabham

1959 - Stan Jones

1960 - Alec Mildren

1970, 1971 - Frank Matich

1974, 1975 - Max Stewart

1976 - John Goss

1977 - Warwick Brown

1979 - John Walker

1980 - Alan Jones

[Michael Ferner]

The gentlemen in the picture look suitable subdued, so let's cheer them up: I think it's fair to say no country has done better at the Australian Grand Prix in terms of driver victories than Australia. But it's been a while, that's true. Enough time for the EffOne brigade to succeed in their efforts to delete all memory of history outside of their little box?

[68targa]

I believe it’s still the case that the Joneses (Stan and Alan) and the Ascaris (Antonio and Alberto) are the only father-and-son pairings to have won their national GP.

 

 Nigel & Damon

[ensign14]

To be frank I have sympathy with First Sportz on this one.  After all, how does one define Grand Prix?  Is it anything with Grand Prix in the title, or a shorthand term for something of major international importance?  Has nobody ever won the German Grand Prix because it was the Grosser Preis?   Do we have to say that there has been a GP winner from Hong Kong because Albert Poon won the Macao GP?   With the best will in the world the AGP was not a Grande Epreuve until 1985, and if you take that sort of definition of Grand Prix - perfectly legitimate so to do and in this context the natural meaning - then it is correct.

[Tim Murray]

Nigel & Damon

?????

[68targa]

Ignore me - my internal humour !

[Jon Saltinstall]

Same as it ever was. I can still remember who won races I attended 50 years ago but the 21 year old me had no idea (and little interest ) in who had won the same race in 1924. 

 

I get that completely, John, and that will be the case for 99% of the current audience. It's a shame that there is little sense of history in so many areas.

 

I would add, though, that there are a few anoraks like me who were actually interested in motorsport in the 1920s (and before!) when I was watching races in 1975 - and I was only eleven then! Maybe I'm just beyond redemption ...

[B Squared]

Then the same must be said about me Jon. When I attended my first Indianapolis 500 in 1968, my family was already close friends with Peter and Sally DePaolo and we also knew Harry Hartz and George Souders. The sports history helps keep the modern sport alive for me.

[Michael Ferner]

The sports history helps keep the modern sport alive for me.

 

Not for me, though - I have lost all interest in current affairs!

 

But you're right, of course, and that's the main problem I see here. How are the young people going to get interested or even only get to appreciate the vast past of the sport if they are continually short changed in this lazy sort of manner. Nobody really NEEDS to know about the history, it's a luxury, but quite an enjoyable one as we all will attest here, yet current fans do not even get the chance to know about it because the (economical) powers that be live in this little bubble of EfffOne 'history' (i.e. statistics, mostly) and ignore everything else. It would be so easy to make a correct statement, without misleading the audience. It's just lazy entitlement that brings us here, and that's a sad loss for those who aren't allowed to know better.

[Michael Ferner]

Btw, what's the relevance of the Scuderia Ferrari shield smack in the middle of the photo composition? 

[Charlieman]

Take a look at the flag in the background. It appears to have been transposed in some way because the curvature of the three stars is the wrong way round. I thought it had been from a montage of flags because the union jack is in the wrong place (but the right way up).

[ensign14]

Probably the Oz flag upside down as a sign of distress (at continued failure).  Subtle.

[BRG]

I've heard of Warwick Farm. 

Who did he drive for and when did he win the Australian GP?

 

Sorry, but this is all a bit silly and doesn't show TNF in its best light.  Yes, we should remember history  but we should also keep a sense of proportion.  Equating a minor domestic race with a World Championship event simply makes TNF look foolish.

[Sterzo]

It's not worse than we thought, it's the same as it ever was. As a child in the fifties I was given a book claiming Henry Ford had invented the motor car.

[B Squared]

Not for me, though - I have lost all interest in current affairs!

These last few years I've done my best to ignore all the politics and bs that is inherent within the sport and have just concentrated on watching the races. No driver favorites for the last 20 years and that also helps me relax and just enjoy what is on offer. In my opinion, it's still the neatest thing out there, I have no idea what I would replace racing with in my life.

Team Penske holds a special place as I was lucky enough to meet Mark and Roger when I was 12 years old (1970) due to Sunoco sponsoring me in Soap Box Derby. Others within Team have been friends for 30 years and remain a highlight regarding my closeness to the sport.

[Michael Ferner]

Who did he drive for and when did he win the Australian GP?

 

Sorry, but this is all a bit silly and doesn't show TNF in its best light.  Yes, we should remember history  but we should also keep a sense of proportion.  Equating a minor domestic race with a World Championship event simply makes TNF look foolish.

 

Pointing out silly errors is silly, but making those errors not? Got it... As for 'minor domestic race', I'll leave it to the Aussie posters here to come down hard on you

 

 

These last few years I've done my best to ignore all the politics and bs that is inherent within the sport and have just concentrated on watching the races. No driver favorites for the last 20 years and that also helps me relax and just enjoy what is on offer. In my opinion, it's still the neatest thing out there, I have no idea what I would replace racing with in my life.

Team Penske holds a special place as I was lucky enough to meet Mark and Roger when I was 12 years old (1970) due to Sunoco sponsoring me in Soap Box Derby. Others within Team have been friends for 30 years and remain a highlight regarding my closeness to the sport.

 

Good for you, and I mean it! But, simply ignoring the BS and watching the races is not for me, when the races themselves have become BS. Every gimmick in the book, from pit stops over DRS to orchestrated FCY to benefit *the show* (*glitter, sparkle*) leaves me with no alternative but to switch off. I don't enjoy watching dices tumble.

 

How did you do in the Soap Box Derby? Tell me you won it!! 

Edited by Michael Ferner, 21 March 2024 - 11:37.

[B Squared]

I won my local race in 1972 (over nearly 100 cars) and was one of 252 competitors at Akron that year. I got beat in the third round by the eventual world champion, Robert Lange, Jr. of Boulder Colorado. His cousin won the next year with the electromagnet, got disqualified and Derby took a huge national hit.

I still have the Western Union message, the letter of congratulations, and the signed photo that Mark sent to me. I was even written up in Sunoco publications alongside Mark and George Follmer as drivers carrying the Sunoco name to victory. Pretty cool stuff for a 14-year-old at the time.

Edited by B Squared, 21 March 2024 - 11:50.

[Michael Ferner]

Reuters publishes the same nonsense:

 

Formula One statistics for the Australian Grand Prix | Reuters

 

 

Start time: 0400 GMT (1500 local)[/size]

AUSTRALIA

There are two Australian drivers in Sunday's race, McLaren's Oscar Piastri and RB's Daniel Ricciardo, for the first time since 2013 when Ricciardo was on the grid with Mark Webber.

No Australian driver has ever won a home grand prix.

This year’s race will be the 27th held at Albert Park, and 38th Australian Grand Prix. It was held in Adelaide, as the final race of the year, between 1985 and 1995.

 

38th Australian GP? Missed by half a century, only.

[FlyingSaucer]

 

Reuters publishes the same nonsense:

 

Formula One statistics for the Australian Grand Prix | Reuters

 

 

 

 

38th Australian GP? Missed by half a century, only.

 

 

kkkkkkkkkk I don't know what's more embarassing - a well-know company like Reuters publishing an article like this or the journalist who writes for them not even bothering to check the information. Even a site like Wikipedia could have shown how wrong/ridiculous this statement is!

 

These are times when I (as a journalist) get angry. A guy who writes this nonsense can make articles for Reuters; and I, who bother to research what I'm writing about, can't!

 

Ç'est la vie....

[2F-001]

... have just concentrated on watching the races. No driver favorites for the last 20 years and that also helps me relax and just enjoy what is on offer. In my opinion, it's still the neatest thing out there...
 

That should be carved in stone as a sound philosophy for a happy life.

 

I still find plenty to enjoy watching current racing, but much less so at the Formula One level - partly because getting to see it trackside is such a tricky and expensive deal (tv viewing being a very poor substitute) ans partly because I find it increasingly difficult to seperate the racing from the background bullshit, the ott presentation and the hysterical commentaries.

But I'm getting along to more national and club level meetings than I've done for many a year.

Edited by 2F-001, 21 March 2024 - 12:57.

[MarkBisset]

 

 

The great, the good, and the grovelling attended the Governor's Grand Prix Ball at the govvies pad in Melbourne tonite.

 

I'm always torn about attending these first class-piss-ups as a Republican but after the first two glasses of Taittinger my dominant side, hypocrisy, kicks in.

 

Its the 60th anniversary of Bruce McLaren's 1964 Tasman Cup victory - the very first Tasman - in the 'very first McLaren’ - aboard a Cooper T70 Climax at Longford in March 1964. The same weekend in which Tim Mayer died in the other T70. When Teddy Mayer overcame his grief and decided he wanted a future in motor racing , the other key foundation piece of Bruce McLaren Motor Racing Ltd was in place.

 

So it's fitting that the remaining T70 owned by Melbourne man - and friend - Adam Berryman was on display.

 

 

 

 

The other highlight was a long chat to Vern and Jenny Schuppan. Vern turned 81 the other day and is trim, taut, terrific and sharp as a tack. They live in a penthouse apartment in the Adelaide Markets building on the old GP track, have a son who lives in Albert Park with whom they are staying  this weekend, and a daughter who lives in Cambridge. They spend about three months a year in the UK, and in Portugal where they have had a home since the 1980s. 
 

 

 

 

 

Gunther what’s-his-name the ‘Drive To Survive’ Star, couldn’t understand a word the prick said, but the chicks loved him.

Edited by MarkBisset, 21 March 2024 - 13:08.

[Ray Bell]

It's a bit sad of those decrying the pre-World Championship races as 'minor domestic races'...

 

Do you understand how important those races were to Australians? I doubt you even have a glimmer of an idea.

 

The competitors would be from many distant places, they'd overcome many obstacles to get to the events, it was important. For instance, a decision was made in the late thirties that the race should have a serious national significance, it would rotate from state to state to make it truly national and no other race was allowed to carry the title 'Grand Prix'. Well, that latter one fell down temporarily in 1946 and 1958, but generally has held good.

 

Competitors bought or built cars just to make it to their Grand Prix with a chance of winning. Jack Brabham came home from Europe to compete in his home Grand Prix. Crowds turned out in droves to watch these 'minor domestic races'. Like 60,000 people in the hot January sun at Lobethal in the Adelaide Hills in 1939. Like the tens of thousands who crammed into Bathurst to see Englishman Peter Whitehead demolish the field in 1938. And when it was part of the Tasman Cup series, with a selection of current F1 drivers dominating proceedings, the crowd at Longford for the 1965 event was the equal of 10% of the population of Tasmania.

 

To discount these events from the lineage of the name, Australian Grand Prix, is an insult to those who raced in those events, those who travelled to see them and those who still recall them in vivid colour.

[DCapps]

Information from the always reliable, accurate, trustworthy, and historically correct formula1.com site:

 

 

Vital statistics

• First Grand Prix – 1996 (first Australian Grand Prix held at Adelaide in 1985)
• Track Length – 5.278km
• Lap record – 1m 20.235s, Sergio Perez, 2023
• Most pole positions – Lewis Hamilton (8)
• Most wins – Michael Schumacher (4)
• Trivia – Almost a third of the field retired on the first lap back in 2002 when eight cars pulled out following a dramatic multi-car collision triggered by Ralf Schumacher’s Williams flying over the back of Rubens Barrichello’s Ferrari
• Pole run to Turn 1 braking point – 271 metres
• Overtakes completed in 2023 – 74
• Safety Car probability – 67%
• Virtual Safety Car probability – 50%
• Pit stop time loss – 20.1 seconds (including 2.5s stationary)

Needless to suggest, somewhat myopic view of the event...

 

On a parallel note, it is the politics and handbags-at-dawn stuff that makes the history of motor sport so interesting to some of us.

The Jenkinson Syndrome of ignoring such goings on might be fine for enthusiasts and fans, but it tends to not serve the past, present, and even the future very well.

We despised, unwanted-and-unloved, and beneath-contempt historians tend to focus on such things because it is often more interesting than the racing itself, along with establishing context.

 

The FIA F1 web site is about as shallow and thin as one can get. Zero issues with an attention-deficit audience because nothing takes more than 60 to 90 seconds, at the very most, to read. If that..

Then again, should one point out things that are ahistorical or incorrect, oh my...!

[F1Frog]

A random website worded a statistic badly. It’s not that deep.

[2F-001]

 

On a parallel note, it is the politics and handbags-at-dawn stuff that makes the history of motor sport so interesting to some of us.

The Jenkinson Syndrome of ignoring such goings on might be fine for enthusiasts and fans, but it tends to not serve the past, present, and even the future very well.

We despised, unwanted-and-unloved, and beneath-contempt historians tend to focus on such things because it is often more interesting than the racing itself, along with establishing context.

 

I find this interesting and thought-provoking...  I was, for example, thoroughly intrigued and fascinated by the so-called 'FISA-FOCA' war, although I had a somewhat selective or warped view on it at the time.

But the more recent shenanigans have been more of a turn-off. While the sport has clearly changed enormously over time, I have clearly changed in some way too.

 

I have become more and more interested in the history since my late teens (nigh on half a century ago), but I suspect I might be in the minority here in attending many current race meetings as well as historic ones.

[ensign14]

 

Reuters publishes the same nonsense:

 

Formula One statistics for the Australian Grand Prix | Reuters

 

 

 

 

38th Australian GP? Missed by half a century, only.

 

Everything before 1985 was a "Grand Prix", not a Grand Prix.  Lipstick on a pig.

[ensign14]

To discount these events from the lineage of the name, Australian Grand Prix, is an insult to those who raced in those events, those who travelled to see them and those who still recall them in vivid colour.

 

Again, though, how are you defining "Grand Prix"?  Anything with the name Grand Prix?  Is Keith Holland a Grand Prix winner?  Lee Han Seng?  Billy Monger?

 

Leaving the Tasman events aside (which of course were not won by domestic racers), at its highest the Australian GP before 1985 was a domestic race, often to a formula far below the elite levels.  I would argue it's an insult to say that Max Stewart should be considered at a higher echelon than François Cevert or Jean Alesi for winning a couple of F2 races which happened to have a portentious title.

 

In the motor sport context, it is just as legitimate to discount the pre-1985 races when talking about the Australian GP as it is to discount the 1960s races when talking about the Singaporean GP. 

[BRG]

It's a bit sad of those decrying the pre-World Championship races as 'minor domestic races'...

 

Do you understand how important those races were to Australians? I doubt you even have a glimmer of an idea.

 

You seem to think that minor domestic race means one that no-one considers it important.  All races are important to those involved - that much is blindingly obvious even to me.  The banger races at Wimbledon Stadium were important to those racing or spectating.  But nobody outside southern England gave a damn about them, just as nobody outside Australasia cared much about the pre-WC Australian GP.  As far as I can see, just one of those races was won by a driver from outside Australia or NZ and that was Prost driving a Formula Pacific Ralt.  Hardly the stuff of legends.  

 

The British GP was won twice by French drivers in French Delage cars.  But I doubt if those races are deemed anything but minor domestic races, even in Byfleet or Weybridge, and I would regard anyone who counted them in the tally of British GPs as being a tad over pedantic.  I can sort of understand someone wanting to include two Maserati victories in the tally of British GP winning marques as these were at least to F1 regulations and had a few international entries.

Edited by BRG, 21 March 2024 - 16:48.

[DCapps]

Actually, for the most part I tend to tune out almost all of the "auto racing history" stuff from the Winston Smith brigade of scribes along with the usual bullshit from those "journalists" who rarely (if ever) let facts get in the way of a good story.

 

That the history of motor sport extends beyond the provenance of a particular car/chassis or the race data for an event or the record of a personality or so on and so forth might certainly be a difficult concept for some to grasp, of course.

History is both a contact sport and an often odd communal/solo process. 

How we interpret the past certainly changes for a variety of reasons, but facts based upon solid evidence, usually archival material, still tend to be facts.

That there was an Australian Grand Prix in 1928 and a Canadian Grand Prix in 1961 and a United States Grand Prix for Sports Cars in 1958 are facts.

Etcetera, etcetera, und so wieder...

[ensign14]

The British GP was won twice by French drivers in French Delage cars.  But I doubt if those races are deemed anything but minor domestic races, even in Byfleet or Weybridge, and I would regard anyone who counted them in the tally of British GPs as being a tad over pedantic.

 

Those though WERE proper international races (Brooklands 1926 was wayyyyyy better than de l'ACF 1926) - but the pedantry comes out in that they were not British GPs, but RAC GPs.

The ones that were not "proper" GPs were the original Donington GPs - the Shuttleworth/Ruesch era.

[Henk Vasmel]

And these people call themselves historians. They seem to forget completely that the meaning of the words "Grand Prix" have changed considerably over the years. The first Grand Prix (in motor racing), the 1906 French GP (if I am not mistaken) was a proper top-line event, yet quite different from what we consider a Grand Prix to be today. There have been many years where a lot of races were called Grand Prix, and certainly not only the most important one in a country (sometimes also regarded as the national Grand Prix). Even some front-line countries have selected a sports car race to be their national Grand Prix, because they couldn't win what we now consider the logical race to wear that title. Also there were races, not intended for the top echelon, F1, GP-formula, even F2 (1952-53) called Grand Prix, and doubtless many minor races as well, some lost in the fogs of time. And we should not forget those countries where the name Grand Prix was translated into their own language (Grote Prijs, Gran Premio, Magyar Nagdij etc.

Another substantial difference came in 1950 when the series of World Championships was started. Initially the majority of races for that championship was called Grand Prix, even the national Grand Prix, but not all of them (Indianapolis!). Besides, there were many races outside the championship that were still called Grand Prix. Some would later join the championship, others didn't. Sometimes there were more than one race per country in the world championship (Pescara/Monza, Sebring/Indianapolis etc.) After 1960 that more or less stabilized for many years, until The USA again got more than one Grand Prix. By now, the rules and the power behind the World Championship was changing a lot, even though successive races never showed a sudden break in development because of that. Non championship races (for Formula 1) became a thing of the past, and the name Grand Prix was suddenly being owned, with the end result that nobody else (in motor racing) could use that name anymore. That was more than 40 years ago, and in those years the wording Grand Prix got more and more the meaning of "a race in the World Championship"

Now if today's journalist writes an article intended for today's fanbase, it is quite correct that he uses today's meaning of the word Grand Prix. It is nowhere necessary to give the whole history of the changing meaning of "Grand Prix" for his public, because they don't know and don't care. People here don't need that explanation as well, because most of us know perfectly well what has happened (because We do care).

Edited by Henk Vasmel, 21 March 2024 - 17:46.

[sabrejet]

For the pedants and apologists, the original post states, "No Australian driver has ever won a home grand prix", not "...World Championship..." or whatever. The statement is not qualified, hence critique of its crass nature is entirely appropriate.

[ensign14]

The first Grand Prix (in motor racing), the 1906 French GP (if I am not mistaken) was a proper top-line event, yet quite different from what we consider a Grand Prix to be today.

 

1901 Pau GP, I think.  Am guessing most Grand Prix histories though start in 1906.

 

For the pedants and apologists, the original post states, "No Australian driver has ever won a home grand prix", not "...World Championship..." or whatever. The statement is not qualified, hence critique of its crass nature is entirely appropriate.

Again though.  What is the definition, in this context, of "Grand Prix"?  The term can carry a number of meanings, including literally an event called a grand prix, but also an informal appellation for an F1 World Championship race - as I'm not aware of any that were NOT called Grands Prix, while the term Grand Prix in motor racing outside that is a rarity.  And the average person is not going to think that Roberto Moreno pootling around in a Ralt is a bona fide Grand Prix.  Just because it's called the Australian Grand Prix does not make it what the average person thinks a Grand Prix is.

[DCapps]

And these people call themselves historians. 

 

Actually, they tend to refer to themselves as "auto racing Historians" or something very similar.

 

They do not tend to be, for the most part it seems, actual historians, but that is of little concern since "historians" tend to be very suspect people, of course, making those horrid displays of the knowledge they may have acquired through years of research and scholarship versus simply reading what is on a web site.

 

After all, those wretched, terrible historians tend to muddy the waters with their use of nuance, complexity, and even perplexity in developing their interpretations of the past.

 

As Henk points out, there is more than a bit of scattered dots to connect in the past regarding all this.

 

One should realize that even the summary Henk provides is subject to question/revision in some aspects, although what he provides is easily better than whatever else is floating around out there.

[Henk Vasmel]

One should realize that even the summary Henk provides is subject to question/revision in some aspects.

 

Oh, certainly. I wrote it in a short period of time, while also having something else to take care of. The big sin is that I sent it on the same day that I wrote it. Opinion pieces (like this, as opposed to a collection of easily identifiable facts) should wait a bit for a second review and only sent after that. And I didn't have the chance to discuss with somebody who also knows about these things. So it tends to be a bit quick and one-sided. But a discussion here about it is fine, of course.

That the Pau Grand Prix pre-dated the French Grand Prix, I missed (Google is your worst enemy, after Bing). I now realize that I knew that, but it didn't pop up in the right moment.

[DCapps]

Oh, certainly. I wrote it in a short period of time, while also having something else to take care of. The big sin is that I sent it on the same day that I wrote it. Opinion pieces (like this, as opposed to a collection of easily identifiable facts) should wait a bit for a second review and only sent after that. And I didn't have the chance to discuss with somebody who also knows about these things. So it tends to be a bit quick and one-sided. But a discussion here about it is fine, of course.

That the Pau Grand Prix pre-dated the French Grand Prix, I missed (Google is your worst enemy, after Bing). I now realize that I knew that, but it didn't pop up in the right moment.

 

Henk, you did very well in tossing together the essential elements pertinent to the issue at hand. Heavens knows that it is a HUGE collection of moving parts that easily mushrooms into a massive word salad in the blinking of an eye. You kept it as simple and direct as possible and that was not easy. Good show. HDC

[sabrejet]

Again though.  What is the definition, in this context, of "Grand Prix"?

 

In this case, the term, "Australian Grand Prix" is very clear. This is the point of this thread.

[Ray Bell]

The shallowness shines through, the ensign and BRG show clearly...

 

Prost and Moreno? I will declare quite frankly that those particular races, the Formula Atlantic events on the piddly Calder circuit, were those least deserving of the 'Grand Prix' title.

 

Ensign, I covered (I think adequately) the point you've again raised the point about applying the 'Grand Prix' title in a haphazard fashion. You might like to read it again, the decision was made in the late thirties that there would be only one event in Australia called by that title annually. I added that this rule was broken in 1946 (the NSW Grand Prix at Nowra Naval Air Base) and 1958 (the Melbourne Grand Prix named for Stirling Moss and Jack Brabham disputing it in then-current F! Coopers), I forgot the Patriotic Grand Prix in Perth, which raIsed funds for some aspect of World War II in 1941 and the Victory Grand Prix held in the euphoria of the end of that war at Caversham in WA.

 

However, there's something else I feel needs to be taken into account. Using French terms such as 'Grand Prix' is not a natural thing in Australia, it takes some serious application and would have been even harder to sell in the twenties and thirties. My parents, for instance, with country backgrounds, could not pronounce it correctly right through the sixties and they were not alone.

 

So the application of that name to an event originally termed '100 Miles Road Race' at Phillip Island in 1928 was a very serious attempt to elevate the status of this race. It was the main motor race held in all of Australia each year. Even at Phillip Island, the 1933 Grand Prix could readily have been overshadowed by a 300-mile event celebrating the centenary of Victoria, it wasn't. The Australian Grand Prix prevailed.

 

The only one of the races I listed which could fall into the realms of a 'minor domestic race' was the 1927 affair at Goulburn.

 

So why have I landed heavily on the ensign and BRG so heavily?

 

Because they mention Prost and Moreno as examples of races of local stature won by a visiting driver of international stature.

 

Have they not heard of the 1956 Australian Grand Prix at Albert Park? Did they not note that it's not in my list of races won by Australians?

 

Featuring several then-current F1 cars and drivers and run over what was then close to a full Grand Epreuve distance, surely it counts?

 

Should I also delve into the Max Stewart reference for its ills? "A couple of F2 races which happened to have a portentious title" indeed...

[ensign14]

Ray, the point is that the Australian Grand Prix was not a "Grand Prix" in the modern and accepted sense of the word any more than the Mozambique Grand Prix was.  Even though it was the biggest race in a state. 

 

Let's throw it the other way.  Imagine a statement saying "the most successful Australian Grand Prix driver is Lex Davison".  For winning four Australian Grands Prix that contained, between them, precisely zero non-Australasian drivers.  That would be a statement almost calculated to have a misleading innuendo. 

 

In this case, the term, "Australian Grand Prix" is very clear. This is the point of this thread.

"Bombay duck" is also very clear.  Is it a duck from Bombay?

[Doug Nye]

Ooooooh. Gawd ... another tedious thread with that 'h' word bandied about just constantly.....

 

zzzzzzzzzzz

[Porsche718]

I'm having some difficulty watching this thread descending into ... something!

 

I'm not sure what it is?

 

It it can only become worse if some peanut now brings up ... "what is really Formula One" ... and when did it truly start?

 

Doug, do you want to go for a pint while this is all going on?

[sabrejet]

And these people call themselves historians.

 

One would hope they don't. I would never consider myself a motorsport historian, though I do for other areas of interest. Nowadays, primary sources or peer-reviewed publications count for nothing against internet-based 'research'.

[Ray Bell]

My friend the ensign...

 

Using the Lex Davison example isn't going to cover up the exclusion from your mind of the Olympic Australian Grand Prix.

 

And sure, I accept that the modern acceptance of the meaning of the terminology has dumbed society down. Why not, however, attempt to add some accuracy?

[seanmac]

Ooooooh. Gawd ... another tedious thread with that 'h' word bandied about just constantly.....

 

zzzzzzzzzzz

I assume that the ‘h’ word in question is Hubert   

[BRG]

Have they not heard of the 1956 Australian Grand Prix at Albert Park?

I cannot speak for ensign but, no, I had not heard about that race.  If pressed, I might have said that there probably was a race called that in 1956 but that I knew no details of it.  I am not a living encyclopedia of minor domestic races.  Just because four overseas drivers competed does not make it a big deal, even if one was Stirling Moss.  During the Supertouring era of the BTCC, there were often more than four overseas drivers on the grid, but that did not make the series any more relevant globally.  

 

Just because some Australians chose to call their race a "Grand Prix" did not make it necessarily a major world event.  I am sorry that your national pride is hurt, but you need to be realistic.

[Michael Ferner]

How preposterous of anyone outside the little F1 bubble daring to call their race "Grand Prix", and pretending to be "relevant"!

 

I'm sorry that your F1 pride is hurt, bit you need to be realistic!

Edited by Michael Ferner, 22 March 2024 - 10:06.

[Catalina Park]

The French Grand Prix was first held in 1950. Anything before that was irrelevant.