124 replies to this topic

[WINO]

How about the term Grand Epreuve, mostly used by the English press to indicate a race for the F1 World Championship in the 50s. Short memories?

[AJCee]

You can copyright anything you want, but to enforce it can be difficult (and expensive!). It's mostly deterrence.

Worth noting that in countries covered by The Berne Convention (I.e. most of the world) copyright is automatic and doesn’t have to be applied for. Also, the term Grand Prix is so well established, and short, that you wouldn’t be able to claim copyright. “F1 Grand Prix” might be a different matter. Their trademarks probably cover the form, including the typeface, of those phrases.

Edited by AJCee, 26 March 2024 - 09:51.

[john aston]

True - but copyright has been on life support since the internet was created. Unless your work is demonstrably valuable and you can afford some pricey IP lawyers , you may as well forget it.  I've often seen posts on here worrying about  breaching the copyright in some ancient photo they've found online. It's laudable , of course , but in the real world that ship sailed a long time ago .  

[DCapps]

How about the term Grand Epreuve, mostly used by the English press to indicate a race for the F1 World Championship in the 50s. Short memories?

 

Ah, yes... Any further comment would simply ruffle feathers and lead to yet more rounds of stink-eye scribbling.

[E1pix]

True - but copyright has been on life support since the internet was created. Unless your work is demonstrably valuable and you can afford some pricey IP lawyers , you may as well forget it.  I've often seen posts on here worrying about  breaching the copyright in some ancient photo they've found online. It's laudable , of course , but in the real world that ship sailed a long time ago .

That’s completely untrue, John — and a terrible message for anyone to see.

Yes, fraud is at an all-time record, but that doesn’t mean the laws have been eradicated.

[john aston]

That’s completely untrue, John — and a terrible message for anyone to see.

Yes, fraud is at an all-time record, but that doesn’t mean the laws have been eradicated.

 I'm not sending about a message, just reflecting my own experience. Look at any forum , on any topic and you will see endless images reproduced without consent, and sometimes large extracts of  text - way outside the fair usage generally accepted. Crikey , I'm a nobody but  I' ve even had some of my own stuff appearing where it shouldn't . 

 

But some copyright holders don't do themselves any favours . A friend wanted to use a short extract from a long out of print book  recently and although in my view he didn't need consent (it was a very short quote ) he asked for consent from the copyright owner (the publisher, not the author ) . He was told it would  cost him several hundred pounds - which I'd bet is more than the total of sales in the last decade - it was not exactly a best seller.

[E1pix]

Thanks for the comments, John.

We both know how rampantly images are (illegally) used in this web era. And partly why I’ve yet to post images here, just to be branded “copyright police” as in the past.

I only mentioned this to correct that an image, or any original creative works, indeed does not need to prove of “rare or massive value” to avert illegal usage.

Easy as it is to throw in the towel in defeat, and trust me the issue is far worse or at least more debilitating in stock photography than in already-paid text or other works in general, I have pursued several infringements and only on my counsel — and the law is still on our side.

But Yes, some overquote usages. The sad reality of that, though, is again the damned web drove that. If one’s given their lifetime to Art, there’s times no sale beats a tiny sale that, frankly, is Defeat.

Thanks.


Edit: Know it is easy to find if your text has been used online. Copy a hundred words or so of anything you’ve posted, paste into Google, you’ll see your text posted and maybe even other sites with it.

Edited by E1pix, 27 March 2024 - 03:22.

[D28]

You can copyright anything you want, but to enforce it can be difficult (and expensive!). It's mostly deterrence.

I think we can conclude that F1 does not aggressively enforce its copyright on the name "Grand Prix". If they do not move against Indy Car, who could be considered a main open wheel competitor in N America, they are unlikely to concern themselves with Grand Prix de Trois-Rivieres, and many other local races. see:

 

https://gp3r.com/en/races/series

[sabrejet]

I think we can conclude that F1 does not aggressively enforce its copyright on the name "Grand Prix".

 

Why would "F1" have (or think it has) a copyright on the name "Grand Prix"? Lazy journos and armchair enthusiasts make that link where plainly it isn't correct. Which goes back to the start of this thread.

[E1pix]

I get the sense they indeed do have a copyright on it, but only in context of associated words like “Belgian Grand Prix.”

I’ve noted that in tennis, for one, names end with “of Tennis” to not run afoul of said copyright.

[D28]

Why would "F1" have (or think it has) a copyright on the name "Grand Prix"? Lazy journos and armchair enthusiasts make that link where plainly it isn't correct. Which goes back to the start of this thread.

See post  #99 above, I simply copied from the F1 web site.

[AJCee]

If you look at the guidelines on their website the rights they claim are limited to use in connection with their world championship. They can try and enforce against unlicensed use in conjunction with that.
They do not own the exclusive rights to the use of the term Grand Prix. It has been in common use for a major sporting event for over a century and they would be laughed out of court. A lot of what they are protecting are their trademarked logos and how the phrases they are claiming should be presented in association with their events. The phrases they are trying to protect have TM after them because they won’t get a registered trademark for it. (Trademarks have to be registered, copyright does not). They do look to be seeking to protect the use and presentation of them in the context of their events.

Besides, they would for example, be unable to stop Formula 1 power boating from using those terms as they have been established there for years.
Re the futile attempt by Victoria Beckham to get Peterborough Utd FC to drop the registration of their long established nickname of The Posh.

Edited by AJCee, 27 March 2024 - 16:37.

[sabrejet]

Re the futile attempt by Victoria Beckham to get Peterborough Utd FC to drop the registration of their long established nickname of The Posh.

 

A term known as "retrospective ****wittism".

[john aston]

I'd be amazed if anybody ever claimed to have had copyright per se on the words 'Grand Prix', or even  'F1 ' , come to that . But I suspect the terms have long been protected as trademarks. Similar , but not quite the same thing . You register a trademark but you don't do so with copyright .     

[D28]

I'd be amazed if anybody ever claimed to have had copyright per se on the words 'Grand Prix', or even  'F1 ' , come to that . But I suspect the terms have long been protected as trademarks. Similar , but not quite the same thing . You register a trademark but you don't do so with copyright .     

Thank-you, that makes things a bit clearer  What I was quoting from their web in # 99 above refers to  trademarks.

[brucemoxon]

Not sure if this adds to the debate or not...

There was a massive to-do over the use of the phrase 'Grand Prix' when the first Gold Coast Indycar race was in the planning / organising stages. CAMS (Confederation of Australian Motor Sport, now Motorsport Australia) went into bat for the FIA in trying to prevent the use of that title. 

 

But first, you can't copyright a title, so you can have multiple pieces of art in the form of films, books, songs, all with the same title and no relation to each other. And it's just the French phrase for 'big prize' anyway. In Germany it's a Grosser Pries and Italian a Gran Premio - why aren't they forced to use Grand Prix. I saw above a reference to 'Grand Epreuve', which I always thought was a good identifier of the difference between a race that was Considered Important, and a race that counted towards the World Championship.

 

And hell, there are about 19 'Grands Prix' in local speedway racing every year - why doesn't anyone go after them?

 

To the original point. Many grands prix have a long and glorious history outside of the World Championship, some even (like the Australian one) pre-dating it. Add me to the voters that cry 'lazy journalism'. Although, to the folks in the cheap seats, does anyone care?

 

 

 

BRM

[E1pix]

Now just imagine for a moment if we all waxed poetically about that “wonderful film called ‘Big Prize’”.

Somehow, even Francoise Hardy would seem less stunning.

[Charlieman]

I'd be amazed if anybody ever claimed to have had copyright per se on the words 'Grand Prix', or even  'F1 ' , come to that . But I suspect the terms have long been protected as trademarks. Similar , but not quite the same thing . You register a trademark but you don't do so with copyright .     

From the official Formula 1 TM website, it is clear that the commercial rights holders are protecting themselves from "passing off". The trademarks apply to words in a particular typeface which can only be used by licensees -- the style and wording cannot be used on T-shirts, magazines, promotional material, advertising displays etc without approval. It's no different from the official Hesketh and Tyrrell merchandise you can buy from Motor Sport magazine and other outlets.

 

There is one tricky limitation, the use of event tickets as promotional prizes. Formula 1 TM cannot prevent use but promoters would not be allowed to use an image of a ticket displaying the trademarked elements.

[BRG]

A term known as "retrospective ****wittism".

Although it perhaps pales in comparison to David Coulthard's unsuccessful attempt to trade-mark the Scottish Saltire...

 

Now just imagine for a moment if we all waxed poetically about that “wonderful film called ‘Big Prize’”.

Somehow, even Francoise Hardy would seem less stunning.

I wonder how the French see it then?  Or maybe in France the film had the exotic - to them - title of "Big Prize"?

 

Names like Ferrari, Schumacher or Villeneuve sound excitingly different to Anglophones, but perhaps not so much to their native ears?

[Tim Murray]

Names like Ferrari, Schumacher or Villeneuve sound excitingly different to Anglophones, but perhaps not so much to their native ears?

As in ‘Joe Flour’ and ‘Lewis Beans’ at Alfa in 1950/51. The name of their then team-mate gets regularly translated as ‘mud’ by the automatic translation feature on Facebook, but I gather the correct Italian word for mud is ‘fango’.

[ensign14]

Of course Flour ended up driving a four-and-a-third pint for Larry Smith.

[chr1s]

Although it perhaps pales in comparison to David Coulthard's unsuccessful attempt to trade-mark the Scottish Saltire...

 

Not to mention Lewis Hamiltons' three year court battle with Hamilton Watches....

[john aston]

 

Names like Ferrari, Schumacher or Villeneuve sound excitingly different to Anglophones, but perhaps not so much to their native ears?

 

I have a farmer friend who , if he had been born in Siena and not Middlesbrough would be called Michele Ferrari. Which is infinitely cooler than Michael Smith,  

[Nick Planas]

Names like Ferrari, Schumacher or Villeneuve sound excitingly different to Anglophones, but perhaps not so much to their native ears?

It happens a lot in the music world too. There was a British composer of light orchestral music in the first half of the 20thC born Albert Ketelby (and there are various spellings of the family name, including Kettelby). He added an accent to his name and became Ketèlby which obviously seemed to work as he was a high earner; popular with the early BBC. Those of my generation will have heard some of his music as it was played regularly through to the mid-70s.

Then of course there's that well known Italian opera composer Jo Green... now 'Verdi hell' did he end up? 

[ensign14]

He wrote a musical called The Slapper.