87 replies to this topic

[balmybaldwin]

I'm regularly surprised at how long it takes after an incedent for the appropriate flags, safety cars etc to be displayed.

 

Yesterday in F1 we saw Russel screaming for a red flag for a considerable time before a VSC was thrown.

 

In Formula E last year at Cape Town in Qualifying we saw Sam Bird crash to avoid an already stricken Mortara a full 30 seconds after the first incident before a yellow flag was shown

 

Again in FE - Rome we saw Bird crash and half the field pile in over the next 30 seconds or so again with very little flag action until about 8 cars had collided with him or the debris

 

There are many other examples of this in f1 and other series where it takes an age to get the flags out, cars slowed down and support crews to a stricken car safely

 

Is this because Marshalls have to get permission to show a flag? Is it only race control that can control the boards? (in which case why aren't they seeing what we are seeing and reacting?)

 

It seems to me that each of the 3 cases above, a head marshal at a post with eyes on should have been able to make the call for a flag almost instantly.  These were all obviously session stopping events with cars stranded on the racing line. Even if they have to radio RC why does it take so long?

 

Would it not be better to have an uneccesary Flag/SC than the sort of incident we saw in cape town, or whatever Russel was imagining was about to happen to him?

Edited by balmybaldwin, 25 March 2024 - 18:00.

[Peat]

 

Is this because Marshalls have to get permission to show a flag? Is it only race control that can control the boards? (in which case why aren't they seeing what we are seeing and reacting?)

 

 

 

AFAIK, flag marshals can wave yellow at thier own discretion and were in this case instant. The post cheif will report it up the chain to race control with or without additional info such as "track is blocked, car in track" etc. The race director makes the call. 

George saying (in understandable panic) that it took too long to call the VSC is to skip over the fact it's now accepted that drivers largely ignore yellow flags. 

Probably for the best, becuiase if they slow down unexpectedly they'd all get penalties now. 

Edited by Peat, 25 March 2024 - 18:33.

[Stephane]

It took 10 sec between crash and vsc

[TomNokoe]

I thought the Russell incident was dealt with quickly and correctly.

Buxton posted a poll on Twitter where 69% of the 20,000 voters said it should have been a red flag, which is totally bonkers to me. I think people are incorrectly reacting to the severity of the incident.

The only danger was Stroll because he was close behind. You can't legislate for this. You can split hairs for a few seconds of race control reaction time, but this is unreasonable IMO. Tsunoda and Hulkenberg were next on the scene under VSC and passed adequately slowly, roughly 30mph/50kph.

[PayasYouRace]

It took 10 sec between crash and vsc

 

That's pretty good, all things considered.

[balmybaldwin]

It certainly seemed longer than that. now Im going to have to go and find another F1 example

[Stephane]

That's pretty good, all things considered.

I don't know if there is a record for those sort of things, but I'm sure it's in the shorter ones

[chrcol]

I'm regularly surprised at how long it takes after an incedent for the appropriate flags, safety cars etc to be displayed.

 

Yesterday in F1 we saw Russel screaming for a red flag for a considerable time before a VSC was thrown.

 

In Formula E last year at Cape Town in Qualifying we saw Sam Bird crash to avoid an already stricken Mortara a full 30 seconds after the first incident before a yellow flag was shown

 

Again in FE - Rome we saw Bird crash and half the field pile in over the next 30 seconds or so again with very little flag action until about 8 cars had collided with him or the debris

 

There are many other examples of this in f1 and other series where it takes an age to get the flags out, cars slowed down and support crews to a stricken car safely

 

Is this because Marshalls have to get permission to show a flag? Is it only race control that can control the boards? (in which case why aren't they seeing what we are seeing and reacting?)

 

It seems to me that each of the 3 cases above, a head marshal at a post with eyes on should have been able to make the call for a flag almost instantly.  These were all obviously session stopping events with cars stranded on the racing line. Even if they have to radio RC why does it take so long?

 

Would it not be better to have an uneccesary Flag/SC than the sort of incident we saw in cape town, or whatever Russel was imagining was about to happen to him?

F1 has had a problem for years with unnecessary SC, in this race they actually got it right for once.

 

Just because a driver wants something it doesnt mean its the right thing to do.

 

A red flag the cars still would have to pass Russell on way to pits, the delta under SC when not behind SC is faster than VSC delta, SC is only better than VSC if you need the field bunched up for a gap to clear the track. Otherwise VSC is superior.

 

There was 1 lap left in the race, most logical thing was VSC combined with double yellows which is what happened, flat out telling the cars to stop and park up where they were would have been safer, but I am not sure if thats ever considered an option by the director.

 

(historically when a SC is called most of the time stewards start clearing before is a gap anyway hence me saying SC's get called when not needed)

Edited by chrcol, 25 March 2024 - 19:45.

[SenorSjon]

Russell wanted a red flag to save his position. The cars run at the same speed with VSC or red flags past the incident. There were no laps left to restart the race, so I think it has been dealt with in a proper manner. He should talk to his colleagues about speeds during yellows.

[NewMrMe]

From a safety standpoint on the last lap a VSC is effectively the same as a red flag anyway. Cars would need to drive past the incident at low speed in either case.

 

The only time I would advocate a red flag on the last lap is if the track is blocked.

[Peat]

Russell wanted a red flag to save his position. 

 

I'm known to be cynical, but that is beyond me. 

You can hear the fear in his voice. It's not about losing 6th place. 

[Stephane]

Yeah, he was just scared, as everyone would be in that situation.

[PayasYouRace]

I think in that situation I’d be calling for a red flag too, not necessarily having the presence of mind to think that a VSC would achieve the same safety effect at that moment.

[pacificquay]

The one I find more egregious is in IndyCar where they often delay a full-course yellow (SC) because of the potential impact on people’s pit stops - that should not be a consideration 

[Peat]

Yes, it's bogus. But in fairness it's never been for a safety critical response. It's usually for a car that has come to a stop and the driver will have been instructed to stay in the car. 

If the GP was an IndyCar race, that would have been an instant FCY regardless of it's proximity to pit cycles. 

Edited by Peat, 26 March 2024 - 09:12.

[southernstars]

It took 10 sec between crash and vsc

 

And in that time Stroll arrived on the scene and had to be warned by his race engineer where Russell was. It shouldn't be up to the race engineer to notice a problem and warn his driver. Unlike where Hamilton broke down, for instance, it was immediately obvious that Russell wasn't going anywhere and the VSC button should have been hit at minimum.

[southernstars]

Russell wanted a red flag to save his position. The cars run at the same speed with VSC or red flags past the incident. There were no laps left to restart the race, so I think it has been dealt with in a proper manner. He should talk to his colleagues about speeds during yellows.

 

Like others, I don't think it was cynical at all. He was on his side, his floor - the least reinforced part of the car - exposed, and he knew there were other cars coming where he was on the exit of a 200+km/h blind corner. He was clearly terrified. If Stroll had not been warned, it could have been a catastrophic impact.

[PayasYouRace]

And in that time Stroll arrived on the scene and had to be warned by his race engineer where Russell was. It shouldn't be up to the race engineer to notice a problem and warn his driver. Unlike where Hamilton broke down, for instance, it was immediately obvious that Russell wasn't going anywhere and the VSC button should have been hit at minimum.

I think the yellow flags were out immediately, so the question is why was Stroll ignoring them?

[IrvTheSwerve]

These decisions always feel longer than they actually are, especially when you’re watching a driver in a dangerous situation. I’d wager that most SC/VSC/red flags are decided between 5-15 seconds at an absolute maximum…when you think about it, the race director needs to see the incident, evaluate the danger, take in any extra information from marshals and his colleagues in the room and then decide on the necessary course of action. Doing this in 5-10ish seconds is actually pretty good…we always have people moaning saying ‘why is this a SC’ or ‘why isn’t this a red flag’ etc…(I’ve probably been one myself), but we have to realise that these decisions are being made almost instantly.

[PayasYouRace]

And my goodness do people complain if a red flag or SC is called when it appears to not be worthy of it.

Race control can never win in the fan’s eyes, so they might as well follow proper procedure.

[IrvTheSwerve]

And my goodness do people complain if a red flag or SC is called when it appears to not be worthy of it.

Race control can never win in the fan’s eyes, so they might as well follow proper procedure.

Indeed. I think people need to remember that we have humans in race control who will have varying opinions on how to deal with an incident, plus they need some time to process things. It’s not like it’s a video game where a driver crashes and it decides to throw a yellow instantly.

 

Even marshals putting out a yellow flag can take a couple of seconds.

[southernstars]

The thing is, in this case, there's nothing to evaluate. Russell's car was on its side, broadside across the track at a very fast corner. There's simply no question as to what should be done.

[PayasYouRace]

The thing is, in this case, there's nothing to evaluate. Russell's car was on its side, broadside across the track at a very fast corner. There's simply no question as to what should be done.

It appears there wasn’t any question. The VSC was called in what appears to have been the normal amount of time.

The only “instant” reaction one should expect are from the flag marshals. It appears they did their job as they should have done.

[sportyskells]

If there were more laps left I thing it would have been upgraded to a full safety car going by a earlier crash at the same turn earlier in the day

[Peat]

https://youtu.be/9z8...2ZRHab9ga&t=381

AFAIK, the on-screen flag notifications are directly linked to same system as RC see. So when a post marshal presses the 'Yellow Flag' button, it is reported to race control and the timing & scoring system simultaneously.

As you can see here, the yellows are out as Russells car is re-entering the track. I reiterate, Georges' fear about being hit is likely due to him knowing how little respect he and his colleagues treat yellow flags. Perhaps he'll stand up and remind everyone what a waved yellow means at the Suzuka driver meeting. 

[Stephane]

And in that time Stroll arrived on the scene and had to be warned by his race engineer where Russell was. It shouldn't be up to the race engineer to notice a problem and warn his driver. Unlike where Hamilton broke down, for instance, it was immediately obvious that Russell wasn't going anywhere and the VSC button should have been hit at minimum.

So, in the end, Stroll slowed enough for it to be safe, right ?

Be it flags, panels, cockpit leds, race engineer, whatever. It worked.

[Beri]

So, in the end, Stroll slowed enough for it to be safe, right ?

Be it flags, panels, cockpit leds, race engineer, whatever. It worked.

 

And after all, we need to realize that:

[IrvTheSwerve]

The thing is, in this case, there's nothing to evaluate. Russell's car was on its side, broadside across the track at a very fast corner. There's simply no question as to what should be done.

I mean, you say there’s ’nothing to evaluate’, but there is…they still need to see the incident (a couple of seconds to take it in), decide what to do (another couple of seconds), listen to any comms that come in (a couple of seconds) and then give the order (another second)…even an ‘instant’ decision needs to take 5,6+ seconds. There isn’t just someone hovering over a red flag button for the whole race…

[Burtros]

You can’t eliminate all risks in the sport and I was fine with how it was handled. VSC made sense. You could hear the panic in GR63 voice and it’s understandable he called for Red, it’s a natural reaction.

The point that comes out of this is we all know drivers are still not taking yellow flags seriously enough.

Presumably this was being covered by double waved yellows immediately and by the time Stroll got there?

[Stephane]

You can see them on Stroll onboard, yes

[amerikalei]

So, in the end, Stroll slowed enough for it to be safe, right ?

Be it flags, panels, cockpit leds, race engineer, whatever. It worked.

It looked if from that highlight clip.  I do wonder what it looked like from Stroll's onboard.  Seems likely he would have seen some disturbance, dust, or (and here I'm recalling something I read decades ago) seeing the crowd reaction in the stands.  After all, these guys are hyper aware in the cockpit. 

 

Given this is the RC thread, I'm sure there are folks who can conjure up counter-examples of poor driver awareness.  But generally it seems like this was not a short sighted in the rain type of situation.

[pdac]

And my goodness do people complain if a red flag or SC is called when it appears to not be worthy of it.

Race control can never win in the fan’s eyes, so they might as well follow proper procedure.

 

Not saying a red flag was appropriate here but, really, it shouldn't matter one jot if people complain as long as the right call is made based on the situation at the moment. If it subsequently turns out a better call could have been made, it should not matter. When it's a safety call it's about making the right call, safety-wise, for the potential problem. It should not be about waiting to see how the problem pans out.

[IrvTheSwerve]

It looked if from that highlight clip.  I do wonder what it looked like from Stroll's onboard.  Seems likely he would have seen some disturbance, dust, or (and here I'm recalling something I read decades ago) seeing the crowd reaction in the stands.  After all, these guys are hyper aware in the cockpit. 

 

Given this is the RC thread, I'm sure there are folks who can conjure up counter-examples of poor driver awareness.  But generally it seems like this was not a short sighted in the rain type of situation.

Here’s the Stroll onboard, with radio:

 

https://youtu.be/Pxl...yZcbJ5I4N_DMiKZ

[jonpollak]

Thread needs paulb
Jp

[ANF]

Here’s the Stroll onboard, with radio:
 
https://youtu.be/Pxl...yZcbJ5I4N_DMiKZ

You don't often hear such good warnings on the radio: "Danger, he's in the track! Danger! Be careful, careful, careful!"

[monolulu]

Listening to some of the team radio calls there does seem to have been some confusion about the medical car appearing on track. A couple of drivers thinking it was the SC & asking whether they should overtake. 

[Spillage]

The criticism of their handling of the Russell crash confuses me - what do you gain from throwing a red flag on the final lap? The race is neutralised, everyone crawls back around to the start line and the race ends. That's what happened anyway?

[Beri]

The criticism of their handling of the Russell crash confuses me - what do you gain from throwing a red flag on the final lap? The race is neutralised, everyone crawls back around to the start line and the race ends. That's what happened anyway?

 

Nothing compared to a full VSC. Same as throwing in the SC, that would not have helped as well. This was the correct decision in my opinion.

[Ruusperi]

Buxton posted a poll on Twitter where 69% of the 20,000 voters said it should have been a red flag, which is totally bonkers to me. I think people are incorrectly reacting to the severity of the incident.

I think it's a generation thing. Those fans who started watching F1 in Masi-era were taught to the idea that every bigger (or even a minor) crash warrants a red flag, whereas I belong to the generation when red flag was reserved  for fatal crashes or track blockages. Pileups like Australia 2002 can be cleared in 5 laps under the SC.

 

About the race control, a professional race director makes his decision based on rational assessment. He can't get emotional and freak out like "OMG, car's upside down, red flag, red flaaaaag!!!". Instead, he must first evaluate the situation and hear the team radio message. If the driver says "I'm all right", there's no need to rush or stop the race. Medical car is usually sent just to pick up the driver (or because the G-force sensory went over the limit). If by further evaluation there seems to be a barrier damage that needs lengthy fixing, then red flag might be a better choice that wasting 15 laps under the SC.

 

One thing I have advocated for years is adopting Code 60. It's regularly used in GT and endurance racing (like last weekend at Mugello 12H, see the link) to neutralize the race and even allow recovery without the need of actual SC. I don't get F1's reluctance to adopt Code 60. It doesn't have to replace VSC but just be in the arsenal of what the race director can do. It could be used as a combination with VSC where VSC is upgraded to Code 60 or vice versa. For handling Russell's crash, Code 60 would have been perfect.

https://www.youtube....au09VtZ&t=21779

[Beri]

I think it's a generation thing. Those fans who started watching F1 in Masi-era were taught to the idea that every bigger (or even a minor) crash warrants a red flag, whereas I belong to the generation when red flag was reserved  for fatal crashes or track blockages. Pileups like Australia 2002 can be cleared in 5 laps under the SC.

 

About the race control, a professional race director makes his decision based on rational assessment. He can't get emotional and freak out like "OMG, car's upside down, red flag, red flaaaaag!!!". Instead, he must first evaluate the situation and hear the team radio message. If the driver says "I'm all right", there's no need to rush or stop the race. Medical car is usually sent just to pick up the driver (or because the G-force sensory went over the limit). If by further evaluation there seems to be a barrier damage that needs lengthy fixing, then red flag might be a better choice that wasting 15 laps under the SC.

 

One thing I have advocated for years is adopting Code 60. It's regularly used in GT and endurance racing (like last weekend at Mugello 12H, see the link) to neutralize the race and even allow recovery without the need of actual SC. I don't get F1's reluctance to adopt Code 60. It doesn't have to replace VSC but just be in the arsenal of what the race director can do. It could be used as a combination with VSC where VSC is upgraded to Code 60 or vice versa. For handling Russell's crash, Code 60 would have been perfect.

https://www.youtube....au09VtZ&t=21779

 

This.

[Peat]

Isn't VSC just F1's over-complicated version of Code 60?

[Stephane]

Kind of, yes

[Gareth]

Buxton posted a poll on Twitter where 69% of the 20,000 voters said it should have been a red flag, which is totally bonkers to me. I think people are incorrectly reacting to the severity of the incident.

I can see why (even though I would disagree) someone might think that.

 

End result in the race would have been no different, I think?

 

So what was the benefit of the VSC? Drivers trundling past the chequered flag and a cool down lap where the crowd get to clap them round (but the finishing order is the same). Is that worth it to send the cars past the scene of the incident, with people on track, one more time?

 

Personally I think it is (that cool down lap where you get to applaud the people who have put on the race for you is an important part of the experience of the day), but I don't think it's bonkers to decide it's not.

[Bleu]

Before the delta times were introduced, sometimes safety car meant that drivers continued full speed until they reached safety car. And I would say that was the partial reason for Alonso's crash in Brazil 2003.

[Oulton]

I think it's a generation thing. Those fans who started watching F1 in Masi-era were taught to the idea that every bigger (or even a minor) crash warrants a red flag, whereas I belong to the generation when red flag was reserved  for fatal crashes or track blockages. Pileups like Australia 2002 can be cleared in 5 laps under the SC.

 

About the race control, a professional race director makes his decision based on rational assessment. He can't get emotional and freak out like "OMG, car's upside down, red flag, red flaaaaag!!!". Instead, he must first evaluate the situation and hear the team radio message. If the driver says "I'm all right", there's no need to rush or stop the race. Medical car is usually sent just to pick up the driver (or because the G-force sensory went over the limit). If by further evaluation there seems to be a barrier damage that needs lengthy fixing, then red flag might be a better choice that wasting 15 laps under the SC.

 

One thing I have advocated for years is adopting Code 60. It's regularly used in GT and endurance racing (like last weekend at Mugello 12H, see the link) to neutralize the race and even allow recovery without the need of actual SC. I don't get F1's reluctance to adopt Code 60. It doesn't have to replace VSC but just be in the arsenal of what the race director can do. It could be used as a combination with VSC where VSC is upgraded to Code 60 or vice versa. For handling Russell's crash, Code 60 would have been perfect.

https://www.youtube....au09VtZ&t=21779

But there was an unnecessary red flag at Silverstone 2021. I don't recall an unnecessary red flag since though, although there may have been one, not sure.

[ANF]

VSC used to be an unsafe option, but the VSC rules for double yellow flags were (finally!) improved as a result of the crane incident at Suzuka 2022. https://www.racefans...o-affect-races/

Previously, drivers were allowed to accelerate to much greater speeds than the delta time would allow, as long as they slowed down and registered a positive delta at one point between each marshalling sector light panel. This is no longer the case; drivers must now remain positive of the delta in a double yellow flag marshalling sector. From the Race Director's Event Notes: "Double Waved during VSC or SC: Any driver passing through a double waved yellow marshalling sector during a VSC or SC, in addition to the requirements in 1.2 above, must remain positive of the SECU delta time in the sector concerned."

Edited by ANF, 26 March 2024 - 15:15.

[sgtkate]

Russell wanted a red flag to save his position. The cars run at the same speed with VSC or red flags past the incident. There were no laps left to restart the race, so I think it has been dealt with in a proper manner. He should talk to his colleagues about speeds during yellows.

Is there a "STOP IMMEDIATELY" flag? The red flag doesn't make the cars stop on track as soon as possible and wait for further instructions. I don't think it was anything to do with trying to protect his position at all he was stuck on his side with cars coming towards him at speed.  

[ANF]

VSC vs Red Flag in general, though: When a race is red-flagged there's no incentive for cars to stay close to the car in front, or stay close to a delta time, like they do under (V)SC. When a race is red-flagged, drivers and engineers know that the gaps have lost all meaning and that they will line up in the pit lane.

[PayasYouRace]

Is there a "STOP IMMEDIATELY" flag? The red flag doesn't make the cars stop on track as soon as possible and wait for further instructions. I don't think it was anything to do with trying to protect his position at all he was stuck on his side with cars coming towards him at speed.

He wasn’t blocking the entire track. There was no need to stop immediately. Just slow enough that you could drive around him.

Even under a red flag, you should be prepared to stop, so that could cover that need.

[IrvTheSwerve]

VSC vs Red Flag in general, though: When a race is red-flagged there's no incentive for cars to stay close to the car in front, or stay close to a delta time, like they do under (V)SC. When a race is red-flagged, drivers and engineers know that the gaps have lost all meaning and that they will line up in the pit lane.

Yep. People equating speeds under a VSC and speeds under a red flag are wrong, IMO. Drivers under red flag are generally more cautious and ready to stop, plus they aren’t chasing a delta time.

 

I personally think it should have been a red (and if it had happened at any other time it likely would have been), but I can understand race control’s decision given the need for an expedient outcome.