87 replies to this topic

[Ruusperi]

I don't recall an unnecessary red flag since though, although there may have been one, not sure.

Albon's crash in 2023 was definitely an unnecessary red flag by Wittich. Given how Hauger had a carbon copy crash last weekend in F2 and it was cleared in a few laps under the SC.

[Stephane]

VSC vs Red Flag in general, though: When a race is red-flagged there's no incentive for cars to stay close to the car in front, or stay close to a delta time, like they do under (V)SC. When a race is red-flagged, drivers and engineers know that the gaps have lost all meaning and that they will line up in the pit lane.

We know via Gasly at Suzuka in 21 that it's not the case.

[IrvTheSwerve]

We know via Gasly at Suzuka in 21 that it's not the case.

That’s a ‘driver being an idiot’ issue rather than a procedural issue, I would say.

 

[Stephane]

But that's because drivers are idiots that we have VSCs and what not.

[IrvTheSwerve]

But that's because drivers are idiots that we have VSCs and what not.

I’m surprised more hasn’t been done to crack down on speeds during red or yellow flags, tbh, especially in light of the Bianchi incident. Obviously we have the VSC, but more can be done.

[ARTGP]

I’m surprised more hasn’t been done to crack down on speeds during red or yellow flags, tbh, especially in light of the Bianchi incident. Obviously we have the VSC, but more can be done.

 

I don't understand why they don't have an electronic speed limiter activated during VSC. 

Edited by ARTGP, 26 March 2024 - 16:20.

[sgtkate]

He wasn’t blocking the entire track. There was no need to stop immediately. Just slow enough that you could drive around him.

Even under a red flag, you should be prepared to stop, so that could cover that need.

Well he was blocking the track, i.e. the tarmac. Cars had to drive onto the grass to get around him. But, regardless of whether there was room or not, anyone who watches Formula E will see what can happen when a "STOP! NOW!" flag doesn't exist...there was a big crash on a blind corner exit, 3 more cars (IIRC) hit the car in the middle of the track with 2 v near misses. Yellow flags were waving and cars had slowed down but they did not realise that there were cars all across the track, and well, carnage. Luckily no serious injuries. Drivers pretty much ignore yellow flags only lifting slightly so I have no belief that they'd actually be able to stop on a sixpence if needed to...then again they don't slow for yellow flags because of a potential loss of time to a competitor, there is no potential time loss under a red flag. Perhaps it is enough. That massive FE crash though...ooofffff.

[PayasYouRace]

Well he was blocking the track, i.e. the tarmac. Cars had to drive onto the grass to get around him. But, regardless of whether there was room or not, anyone who watches Formula E will see what can happen when a "STOP! NOW!" flag doesn't exist...there was a big crash on a blind corner exit, 3 more cars (IIRC) hit the car in the middle of the track with 2 v near misses. Yellow flags were waving and cars had slowed down but they did not realise that there were cars all across the track, and well, carnage. Luckily no serious injuries. Drivers pretty much ignore yellow flags only lifting slightly so I have no belief that they'd actually be able to stop on a sixpence if needed to...then again they don't slow for yellow flags because of a potential loss of time to a competitor, there is no potential time loss under a red flag. Perhaps it is enough. That massive FE crash though...ooofffff.

There is a flag signal for that though. Double waved yellows. Slow down and prepare to stop. This is also the condition imposed by a red flag. Clearly drivers need to be disciplined for not being prepared to stop.

And Russell’s Mercedes isn’t 12-14m long. It wasn’t blocking the entire track. There was room to drive around him.

[Sterzo]

Maybe there's a case for having a facility for the Race Dirctor to press a button and take over all radios to warn of an obstruction at turn X. Not saying it was essential in this case, but it shouldn't be too difficult to implement and could occasionally be very useful.

[IrvTheSwerve]

I don't understand why they don't have an electronic speed limiter activated during VSC. 

Yeah, I’ve said in the past that they should just force them to put the pit limiter on (or similar). I suppose you’d lose less time in slow corners then though.

[balmybaldwin]

Maybe there's a case for having a facility for the Race Dirctor to press a button and take over all radios to warn of an obstruction at turn X. Not saying it was essential in this case, but it shouldn't be too difficult to implement and could occasionally be very useful.

This actually exists in Formula E and is often used to warn drivers of stranded cars, debris & what RC are doing about it while a safety car is out. I haven't seen it used in "Live" sessions

 

e.g.  Qualifying...  no flags shown until 2 cars pass and one car crashes after mortara hits the wall first : https://www.dailymot...m/video/x8im8pw

[Deeq]

Here’s the Stroll onboard, with radio:

https://youtu.be/Pxl...yZcbJ5I4N_DMiKZ

Thanks 👍
My observations, despite every warning Stroll drove too fast by the accident..A Marshall crossing right to left behind the Mercedes would have been collected by Stroll.
FiA must crack down this sadly routine disrespect of safety (double yellow flags) by drivers.

Btw Audio and video not insync in the clip, Audio maybe 1-2s behind video... Can be noticed by the engineers panicked warnings* after Stroll is past the crashed Mercedes.

*) careful be careful, I think it is when he is passing the Mercedes...or engineers video is delayed!

Edited by Deeq, 26 March 2024 - 22:20.

[BoDarvelle]

Here’s the Stroll onboard, with radio:

 

https://youtu.be/Pxl...yZcbJ5I4N_DMiKZ

 

It should also be noted there is a delay on the radio. Made obvious here when he says "careful careful!" after he is well past Russel's car.

[Shambolic]

It shouldn't be up to the race engineer to notice a problem and warn his driver.

No, it should be up to the driver to slow down appropriately for yellows.

 

The fact they don't shouldn't be viewed as a tradition of the sport. We need to start seeing flag rules fully enforced, with severe penalties if necessary.

[Stephane]

But, he did...

[PayasYouRace]

But, he did...

Indeed, and there’s nothing wrong with a race engineer giving warnings. That’s adding to safety.

[Beri]

Indeed, and there’s nothing wrong with a race engineer giving warnings. That’s adding to safety.

 

But the engineer would have to give warnings that are 100% spot on. I cant comprehend the thought if a massive shunt happened in a blind corner (for instance corner 6 at Jeddah) and the engineer mistakenly speaks about a corner after. It is a human factor that you rely on. Whereas the automated systems are always spot on.

[PayasYouRace]

But the engineer would have to give warnings that are 100% spot on. I cant comprehend the thought if a massive shunt happened in a blind corner (for instance corner 6 at Jeddah) and the engineer mistakenly speaks about a corner after. It is a human factor that you rely on. Whereas the automated systems are always spot on.

Let’s wind back and read what I wrote again. Nothing wrong with a race engineer adding to the safety of racing on track.

I did not say a race engineer should be relied upon to provide a safety role.

[Beri]

And I am stating that human interaction and human perception can create a worse situation. So I do not necessarily agree that a race engineer would always add safety.

[PayasYouRace]

And I am stating that human interaction and human perception can create a worse situation. So I do not necessarily agree that a race engineer would always add safety.

I suppose if you’re an idiot racing driver with a face full of yellow flags and lights, but you’d rather listen to your race engineer who has his corner call wrong, then yeah, you deserve a trip to hospital.

[Beri]

Agreed. But that doesnt take away that such information can be given falsely.

[PayasYouRace]

Agreed. But that doesnt take away that such information can be given falsely.

Any information can be given falsely, and flag marshals aren’t immune from it (remember Horner’s rogue marshal?).

When you have multiple means of alerting someone to a danger, it means less chance of the warning being missed.

In this case, Stroll successfully slowed and navigated the obstruction safely. Is there room for improvement? Always. Is there a need for wholesale rethinking of the safety protocols? Probably not.

[Rinehart]

And in that time Stroll arrived on the scene and had to be warned by his race engineer where Russell was. It shouldn't be up to the race engineer to notice a problem and warn his driver. 

 

Agree. I have had this feeling, for several years, that were only a late, missing or misheard RE to driver message away from a serious shunt in F1.

 

The closing speeds between prep and timed laps in qualy or a stricken car in a blind spot on the racing line during a race - all seem to be at the mercy of the timing and clarity of RE warnings. Since white and yellow flags achieve next to nothing. 

 

What happens one day when a sequence of unfortunate events collide and at the wrong time one of these radios don't work or the message isn't given/understood.

 

It goes back to the overconfident etiquette that a "lift" is fine when yellows are shown and a "whatev's" is the acceptable response to a white flag. Thats gonna be fine until one day it isn't.

[Beri]

Any information can be given falsely, and flag marshals aren’t immune from it (remember Horner’s rogue marshal?).

When you have multiple means of alerting someone to a danger, it means less chance of the warning being missed.

In this case, Stroll successfully slowed and navigated the obstruction safely. Is there room for improvement? Always. Is there a need for wholesale rethinking of the safety protocols? Probably not.

 

You are exactly pointing out my issue; take away the human aspect in creating these safety warnings.

[Stephane]

Not sure it is possible. How many sensors would you need ?

[Beri]

Most of the yellow flagging systems are automated as we speak. So I dont know if it will take a bunch of different measures. But I can imagine it not being extensive.

[PayasYouRace]

Most of the yellow flagging systems are automated as we speak. So I dont know if it will take a bunch of different measures. But I can imagine it not being extensive.

How are they automated? Do they automatically produce a yellow when a crash happens or a car leaves the track? How do they do that?

At the moment all yellow flag signals come from either the marshals or race control activating the system, and the former physically waving the flags.

[Stephane]

They are still triggered by human action, i think. Off tracks are not yet automatically detected.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Most of the yellow flagging systems are automated as we speak. So I dont know if it will take a bunch of different measures. But I can imagine it not being extensive.

I don’t believe that any of the flagging system is automated. 

[IrvTheSwerve]

Do marshals have access to light panels too? I thought that they did but I’m not sure.

Edited by IrvTheSwerve, 27 March 2024 - 10:21.

[Beri]

How are they automated? Do they automatically produce a yellow when a crash happens or a car leaves the track? How do they do that?

At the moment all yellow flag signals come from either the marshals or race control activating the system, and the former physically waving the flags.

 

I will look for it later on today. Because I did read an article on indeed sensors and stuff that would detect a car going off track and activating the automated flagging displays. It is why you see a short yellow on the timing pillar as well when a car is off track. I just need to find that article.

 

But perhaps PaulB could elaborate a bit too? He is, as far as I know, our most recent trackside marshall. As he was a marshall at the LV Grand Prix.

[SenorSjon]

Do marshals have access to light panels too? I thought that they did but I’m not sure.

 

Wasn't it in Mexico qualifying Bottas' last corner crash destroyed the control panel and Verstappen went on full steam because the panel wasn't working and so also his steering wheel lights didn't light up?

[Peat]

https://www.fia.com/...motogp-circuits

 

 

 

The light panels can be operated by race control or trackside by marshals

[Bleu]

Do marshals have access to light panels too? I thought that they did but I’m not sure.

 

I believe they can control local yellows, double yellows and greens but race control puts red and SC/VSC in the panels.

 

Yeah, I’ve said in the past that they should just force them to put the pit limiter on (or similar). I suppose you’d lose less time in slow corners then though.

 

I think that's the reason they don't use hard speed limiter.

[balmybaldwin]

I would think some of this could be done quite reliably automatically with existing GPS and telemetry sensors but you'd get some false positives just from sensor failure... 

e.g. If a car in minisector 4 suddenly goes from 200kph to 0 or sets off it's G sensor then a flag could be set or at least immediately put on screen for RC to make decision etc

 

Actually I sort of recall that the G sensor going off automatically deploys medical car (presumably after SC) is this true or just my imagination?

[Beri]

https://www.fia.com/...motogp-circuits

 

 

It contradicts what I have read. But since it has been just 2 years since this standard has been introduced, I take the official FIA documents for the truth.

 

Further on in the article is a link to the requirements of the lighting panel, which indicates that there is a Marshall Control Device. Some equipment they can use to operate the light panels. Also it says that the light panels might come on earlier than the lights on the steering wheel as the signal is broadcast to the Race Control after it comes on. Race Control has the power to overturn the signals broadcast. Meaning they can change a yellow flag into a SC sign.

 

 

4.6.1 Local Operation

Light panels shall be locally operated by the signalling marshals via the corresponding marshal control devices, either in direct proximity of the panel or at a nearby location. For system design purposes it should be possible to operate the panel within a distance of up to 250m.


4.6.2 Marshal Control Device

The marshal control device should be designed so as to be as compact and light as possible, to be easily operable and transportable, and provide an intuitive user interface. It should avoid the possibility of accidental operations. The control device must be rechargeable and able to be operated while being recharged. It can be either button-based or touched-based. It shall be easy to operate with appropriate gloves and could be equipped with LED light indicators, to display different modes of operation of the unit, as well as an informational display. The display should give information about the status of the device, the corresponding panel and incorporate repeater lights, to show the status of the light panels at the neighbouring marshal posts upstream and downstream.


4.6.3 Remote Operation

The information displayed on the light panels should always be relayed directly to the Race Control, who should always have the capability of operating them remotely. Flag signals reserved for the Race Director and the Clerk of the Course must be solely operable by the Race Control.

[chrcol]

VSC vs Red Flag in general, though: When a race is red-flagged there's no incentive for cars to stay close to the car in front, or stay close to a delta time, like they do under (V)SC. When a race is red-flagged, drivers and engineers know that the gaps have lost all meaning and that they will line up in the pit lane.

I think this is a fair point, but this is the final lap of the race, I question a drivers intellect if they think they racing again at the end of that VSC after what happened.

We did have a director defy all logic a couple of years back at the end of a race, but he of course was rightfully removed from his position as a consequence.

[chrcol]

I don't understand why they don't have an electronic speed limiter activated during VSC. 

Probably should be a requirement to have pit lane limiter on during VSC.  I think there is scope for rule improvements, I would do something like this.  The aim would be to minimise the impact on sporting results and using SC's for entertainment purposes whilst also reducing risk of collision with crashed cars, bear in mind I have an opinion I dont think stewards need a clear track to clear most cars, as proven by the fact they used to do it fine decades ago and that in modern F1 they usually start clearing before a gap is actually created by a SC.  I also have an opinion SC restarts have an element of crash risk to them.  Same as grid starts following red flag.

 

1 - Require pit lane speed limiter activated during VSC.

2 - Replace most instances of what would be SC with either VSC or red flag.  SC I think could eventually be made obsolete.  VSC is amazing and really under utilised.

3 - No pit stops during VSC/SC.

4 - Red flag tyre change allowed, cars restarted staggered with interval at time red flag was called, they resume race pace when exiting pit lane.  If tyre change carried out, pit stop time added to race time end of race.

 

The issue with my suggestions, is (a) the F1 management seem incapable of doing anything thats remotely complicated, hence its constant weird enforcement issues, in ability to catch things without lobbying teams and so forth.  Also (b) the current issues with wet conditions would likely prevent F1 accepting my red flag restart procedure as the cars seem to want to trundle around for 10 or so laps behind SC creating a dry line, waiting for inter conditions before resuming.  I think the wet condition problem is a combination of current drivers culture and bad wet weather tyres.

Edited by chrcol, 28 March 2024 - 01:04.