51 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

Exciting news today is that Prema will enter 2 cars at IndyCar in 2025.

 

What other European Racing teams joined IndyCar / IRL / ChampCar in the past?

 

In this article it was mentiones DAMS and Super Nova failed to enter IndyCar in the 90s.

https://www.the-race...ndycar-options/

 

We had Carlin some years ago.

 

We had EuroInternational by Enzo Ferrari's grandnephew Antonia Ferrari.

 

Minardi teamed-up with HVM in 2007.

 

Johansson Motorsport in 1997.

RSM Marko for 1 race in 1998

 

Any more?

Edited by HistoryFan, 09 April 2024 - 17:55.

[Stephane]

Some Indy 500 one offs in the past

[Henri Greuter]

McLaren from 1970 on perhaps????

Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 April 2024 - 18:12.

[uzsjgb]

Project Indy.

[William Hunt]

Conquest Racing. Belgian team owned by former Indy Car driver Eric Bachelart.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Conquest_Racing

[KWSN - DSM]

Some sprung from Europe but did not necessarily enter as an existing European Team.

 

Mo Nunn racing

Euromotorsport

 

Did Stoddard not enter a 'Minardi' at some time?

[KWSN - DSM]

Does March and Porsche count?

[Henri Greuter]

Does March and Porsche count?

Make it Alfa Romeo and Porsche then.

 

 

Hmm, come to think of it:

Alfa was first associated with ALex Morales Racing, or more correct, the legacy of that team once Morales had died. And then it went over to Pat Pattrick Racing with providing engines and commissioning a chassis with March on both occasions.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 09 April 2024 - 22:14.

[Rob G]

Racing Team VDS

Ligier

[paulb]

Peugeot

[Henri Greuter]

Mentioning Peugeot brings back another name to think of

 

Mercedes in 1923

[LegendInTheMaking]

Some Indy 500 one offs in the past

Jim Clark says "Hi!"

[New Britain]

It depends on whether the question is about literally 'IndyCar', which I believe began in 2003, or the Indianapolis 500.

 

In 1952 Ferrari competed in the 500, Alberto Ascari driving.

In 1961 Jack Brabham drove his own car. Obviously Brabham himself was from Australia, but his team were British.

 

If one wants to go way back, more than a hundred years ago among the competitors were such European cars as Peugeot, Sunbeam, Delage, Grégoire, Ballot, and Bentley. In 1923, both Bugatti and Mercedes cars were entered. Although most of these early foreign cars were entered by individuals (which was the norm) rather than by the 'constructor', both the Bentley and the Merc were factory entries.

[BRG]

There was a team from Poole in Dorset, England.

 

I think it was called 'Penske' or some such.

[New Britain]

There was a team from Poole in Dorset, England.

 

I think it was called 'Penske' or some such.

Interesting point. That was an odd one: an American ex-driver and team owner who had already won the 500 with a customer car wanted to compete in F1, which required him to set up a factory in Europe. He then used that factory to build other, non-F1 cars that he ran back in the States.

https://www.teampens...y_-_Penske_Cars

[Collombin]

In 1961 Jack Brabham drove his own car. Obviously Brabham himself was from Australia, but his team were British

It wasn't his team, he was still with Cooper in 1961. He went his own way the following year.

[Amphicar]

It wasn't his team, he was still with Cooper in 1961. He went his own way the following year.

Jack Brabham did drive a Brabham BT12 in 1964 and a BT25 in 1968. The last Brabham car to race at Indy was the BT32 in 1970.

Edited by Amphicar, 11 April 2024 - 16:26.

[Amphicar]

Surprising that nobody has mentioned Lola, a European manufacturer with which Graham Hill won the 1966 Indy 500

[DeKnyff]

Surprising that nobody has mentioned Lola, a European manufacturer with which Graham Hill won the 1966 Indy 500

 

It was a European car, but an American team (John Mecom Racing). Not sure it qualifies as "European".

[Radoye]

Scuderia Ferrari in 1952

[BRG]

Where there ever any official March entries?

[Henri Greuter]

Where there ever any official March entries?

I know about a works supported Buick powered entry in 1986 but forgot who drove it

[Amphicar]

I know about a works supported Buick powered entry in 1986 but forgot who drove it

Possibly the Hemelgarn Racing March-Buick driven by Jacques Villeneuve (brother of Gilles)?

[William Hunt]

Excelsior entered the Indy 500

https://en.wikipedia...ndianapolis_500

https://fr.wikipedia...onale_Excelsior

 

And off course Delage,

they were very competitive and a top team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delage

Edited by William Hunt, 12 April 2024 - 02:26.

[New Britain]

It wasn't his team, he was still with Cooper in 1961. He went his own way the following year.

Good point. I had thought that, because the project was at his impetus, he had organised it himself and therefore it was 'his' team, but now I see that it was a Cooper factory effort.

[Peat]

 

 

Did Stoddard not enter a 'Minardi' at some time?

 

He did, but 'Team Minardi USA' came about when he bought a stake in HVM (Previously Herdez/Bettenhausen) which had been running in Champ Car. It reverted back to the HVM name for a few seasons of IndyCar before it died of Lotus inflicted injuries. 

[WonderWoman61]

F3000 teams Arden and the short-lived Brand Motorsport were briefly linked to 2003 Champ Car entries. The latter would have brought Nicolas Minassian back into the series.

[Risil]

Ligier

 

Had no idea a Ligier ended up in Indycar, albeit briefly and unimpressively: https://forums.autos...indycar-merged/

[Henri Greuter]

Possibly the Hemelgarn Racing March-Buick driven by Jacques Villeneuve (brother of Gilles)?

Page 18 in the '86 Hungness:  An Indy Only effort between March & Buick with Interscope & Danny Ongais

[KWSN - DSM]

Page 18 in the '86 Hungness:  An Indy Only effort between March & Buick with Interscope & Danny Ongais

 

Interscope were the Porsche as well no?

[Henri Greuter]

Interscope were the Porsche as well no?

For the project planned for the Flat-6  in '79 and '80: yes.

 

the '87 - '90 project was a factory effort.

[B Squared]

Page 18 in the '86 Hungness: An Indy Only effort between March & Buick with Interscope & Danny Ongais

Also in 1986 there was the Jim Crawford entry of Team ASC-March Buick. The American Sunroof Company was a subsidiary of GM at that time and I was always curious if March had a hand in the fielding of this entry also or if GM did this on their own.

[TennisUK]

For the project planned for the Flat-6 in '79 and '80: yes.

the '87 - '90 project was a factory effort.

… that went on to become Walker Racing with Porsche’s withdrawal at the end of 1990.

[Henri Greuter]

Also in 1986 there was the Jim Crawford entry of Team ASC-March Buick. The American Sunroof Company was a subsidiary of GM at that time and I was always curious if March had a hand in the fielding of this entry also or if GM did this on their own.

Now that's a new one for me about ASC belonging to GM  B Squared! Never knew that and indeed an interesting thought.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 April 2024 - 14:40.

[HistoryFan]

Conquest Racing. Belgian team owned by former Indy Car driver Eric Bachelart.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Conquest_Racing

 

Wasn't it more a US team owned by a Belgian?

[HistoryFan]

Excelsior entered the Indy 500

https://en.wikipedia...ndianapolis_500

https://fr.wikipedia...onale_Excelsior

 

And off course Delage,

they were very competitive and a top team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delage

 

Isotta-Fraschini entered cars in the Indy 500 in 1913

[juicy sushi]

For the project planned for the Flat-6 in '79 and '80: yes.

the '87 - '90 project was a factory effort.

This now has me wondering how well a BLAT Eagle run by AAR could have done with a 935 motor instead of their small-block Chevy.

[Gambelli]

Where there ever any official March entries?

 

I think there were entries many months of the year..... though the championship would start in March more often, so more debut entries in March!

[FLB]

This now has me wondering how well a BLAT Eagle run by AAR could have done with a 935 motor instead of their small-block Chevy.

The Indy project gave us the Porsche 956 Engines and transmissions (porsche.com)

[WonderWoman61]

Team St. George at Rockingham in the 2002 CART Season with Darren Manning driving. Admittedly, it was a Dale Coyne-run entry.

[Henri Greuter]

This now has me wondering how well a BLAT Eagle run by AAR could have done with a 935 motor instead of their small-block Chevy.

OMG....

 

I've had terrible discussions elswhere within this forum about this car because o......

 

OK, at the risk of yet another provocation of our self proclaimed aero specialist over here of who I wonder if he ever had seen such a car to begin with....

 

I have seen the BLAT Eagles in real.

According the designers the car was not a ground effects car according the letter of the word and like the then current generation of wing cars.

Nevertheless: the BLAT Eagles did have a tiny air intake that fed the diffuser that was created by the floor of the car.

Thus: the floor of the car was raised upwards a bit.

And believe me, the diffuser at the rear of this floor had quite a steep sloping upward profile.

The exhaust system of the engine would likely have been compromised in the same manner as we saw in later years with the Porsche 956 and 962. Not in the least because the Indy Flat-6 only had water cooled cylinder heads, the crankcase was still aircooled and this airflow  had to be disposed as well through the car.

The basic 935 engine like the one you suggest was fully aircooled and had even more air to dispose,

 

Then, the Flat-6 was wide.  And when fitted with the Chevy V8, the cars has radiators at fuel cel level, ahead of the engine. Such was possible due to the width of the V8.

My guess is that had the wider Flat-6 being used, the airflow through what was the equivalent of the Side-pod would have been compromised quite a bit. Probably making a relocation of the radiators more forward necessary. And how that would have affected the basic design and principle of the BLAT concept.

 

All together: A Porsche Flat-6 engine in the Eagle would have made it an entirely different car then as we know it and wonder how such a modified variant could have worked as well as it did with the Chevy. and could have worked with contemporary V8's in the basic design as we know it.

 

But having said all of that, I really wonder how the car that was designed around the Flat-6  (the 1981 Interscope `Batmobile`) would have had performed with that engine.

[WonderWoman61]

British Racing Partnership (BRP) in the 1965 Indy 500.

[jonpollak]

Had no idea a Ligier ended up in Indycar, albeit briefly and unimpressively: https://forums.autos...indycar-merged/

Jp

[Risil]

That thing looks totally bizarre! Thank you!

[Henri Greuter]

That thing looks totally bizarre! Thank you!

Bizarre, maybe, yet it featured something that made this car still a kind of pioneer within CART.

 

The sloping upwards flaps on the side of the sidepods that you see, those are about the very first ones ever used in CART of this size.

It went even that far that once other cars began to adopt them as well, they were referred to as the "Ligier-Whoops", though that name eventually was lost again once the principle was more and more standard on the later Indycars.

 

Failure? Definitely.

Complete failure? Definitely not.

[Risil]

And the other portent is that the Curb of Curb Records co-owns Colton Herta's entry today.

[WonderWoman61]

Also, there was Polish native Jakub Grayewski and his stillborn J.A.G Racing team that intended to run Andre Lotterer in the 2003 CART Season.

Otherwise Lotterer would have done a part-season with Arden.

[noriaki]

There were strong-ish rumours that Coloni were looking at joining Indycar around 10 years ago with Luca Filippi as their driver, but that amounted to nothing unfortunately. Zakspeed, though, did collaborate with Gerry Forsythe in 2001 - Bryan Herta was the driver. 

 

In addition to the Europe, there have been non-American teams from Japan and Australia too, at least. For years, Aguri Suzuki fielded his cars in Indycar before entering F1, and I believe the Japanese outfit Team Goh had a hand in the Coyne entry that saw Alex Palou move Stateside from Japan. And in Champ Car, Derrick Walker ran his cars dubbed as "Team Australia" (I believe Will Power debuted with them) - while Team Murray, owned by Brett Murray, turned up at the 2016 Indy 500 with Matty Brabham and were never to be seen again.

[WonderWoman61]

Ferrari with the unraced 637.

[juicy sushi]

OMG....

 

I've had terrible discussions elswhere within this forum about this car because o......

 

OK, at the risk of yet another provocation of our self proclaimed aero specialist over here of who I wonder if he ever had seen such a car to begin with....

 

I have seen the BLAT Eagles in real.

According the designers the car was not a ground effects car according the letter of the word and like the then current generation of wing cars.

Nevertheless: the BLAT Eagles did have a tiny air intake that fed the diffuser that was created by the floor of the car.

Thus: the floor of the car was raised upwards a bit.

And believe me, the diffuser at the rear of this floor had quite a steep sloping upward profile.

The exhaust system of the engine would likely have been compromised in the same manner as we saw in later years with the Porsche 956 and 962. Not in the least because the Indy Flat-6 only had water cooled cylinder heads, the crankcase was still aircooled and this airflow  had to be disposed as well through the car.

The basic 935 engine like the one you suggest was fully aircooled and had even more air to dispose,

 

Then, the Flat-6 was wide.  And when fitted with the Chevy V8, the cars has radiators at fuel cel level, ahead of the engine. Such was possible due to the width of the V8.

My guess is that had the wider Flat-6 being used, the airflow through what was the equivalent of the Side-pod would have been compromised quite a bit. Probably making a relocation of the radiators more forward necessary. And how that would have affected the basic design and principle of the BLAT concept.

 

All together: A Porsche Flat-6 engine in the Eagle would have made it an entirely different car then as we know it and wonder how such a modified variant could have worked as well as it did with the Chevy. and could have worked with contemporary V8's in the basic design as we know it.

 

But having said all of that, I really wonder how the car that was designed around the Flat-6  (the 1981 Interscope `Batmobile`) would have had performed with that engine.

Makes sense.  I was just thinking out loud based on how much the Interscope car looked like a "discount" version of the BLAT Eagle, so I thought maybe it might fit, without thinking about how of course AAR would optimize the internals to work around their Chevy...