We have a protest!
@ChrisMedlandF1
Aston Martin has protested the qualifying results in China
Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:50
We have a protest!
@ChrisMedlandF1
Aston Martin has protested the qualifying results in China
Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:54
Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:55
This seems pretty weak, he got back under his own steam, any time a driver spins they more often than not come to a 'stop' before continuing...
Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:57
I still can’t get my head around the fact that when you cause a red flag, you can still proceed in qualifying.
It’s not the driver’s fault if race control deem it a red flag.
If he got back to the pits under his own steam then there’s absolutely nothing to see here, IMO.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:58
Cue endless debate about what "stops" means.
As so often happens, I suspect the first response in a thread nails it.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 09:59
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:05
With Carlos I think you start to feel the edge of panic about not having a race seat for next year. Very aggressive in sprint and this mistake in qualifying...
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:06
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:07
here we go again Aston martin are prostesting
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:08
With Carlos I think you start to feel the edge of panic about not having a race seat for next year. Very aggressive in sprint and this mistake in qualifying...
Whatever you're smoking maybe it's time to quit. The whole paddock, bar Ferrari, is wanting his signature on a contract... he'll race next year and many years to come.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:16
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:20
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:20
If this protest stood then if someone spun and their car came to a stop they would be out of qualifying despite them just needing a moment to get back going again.
Indeed. Or when running wide on a street circuit, they have stop, then find the reverse gear which can take a while. If we have a trigger-happy race director who brings out the red flag immediately, then what can you do?
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:25
The red flag is irrelevant to the protest though.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:26
That surely won't stand. We've seen cars come to a stop in qualifying before and continue on without it being a problem. It wasn't a case of him needing a push start or towed back to the garage. He came back unaided. If this protest stood then if someone spun and their car came to a stop they would be out of qualifying despite them just needing a moment to get back going again.
Ah, but they have to look at the rule. As always, they have written the rule badly (not defining that is meant by "stop"). Someone needs to clarify that now. It's rather akin to the no movable aero rule (there's always some degree of movement, but the rule doesn't take that into account).
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:26
Its essentially always been understood and applied as 'stopped' means 'unable to get back to the pits unassisted'
Stop playing silly buggers.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:27
Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 20 April 2024 - 10:28.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:35
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Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:37
Oh. https://www.motorspo...crash/10601131/here we go again Aston martin are prostesting
Edited by ANF, 20 April 2024 - 10:38.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:44
I think this is rather weak from Aston. The rule has only every applied to cars that have not been able to return to the pits unaided. Under Aston's interpretation, anyone who spins in qualifying would then be out of qualifying.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:45
With Carlos I think you start to feel the edge of panic about not having a race seat for next year. Very aggressive in sprint and this mistake in qualifying...
Or just someone with nothing to lose giving it their all.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:50
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:57
As unpopular as it would be, I think AM have a case here. Race control stated that Sainz was stopped on track. The question now is if race control wishes to "correct the record", so to speak, and say they were mistaken in making that statement.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:58
As unpopular as it would be, I think AM have a case here. Race control stated that Sainz was stopped on track. The question now is if race control wishes to "correct the record", so to speak, and say they were mistaken in making that statement.
So Race Control said that? They might say that about any car that spins.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:59
As unpopular as it would be, I think AM have a case here. Race control stated that Sainz was stopped on track. The question now is if race control wishes to "correct the record", so to speak, and say they were mistaken in making that statement.
Race control say a lot of things.. and sometime correct those things when new information arises.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 10:59
So Race Control said that? They might say that about any car that spins.
I'm following ANF's post above, quoting Motorsport.com: "The FIA race control messages stated that Sainz had stopped on track during the red flag period, before he was able to fire up his Ferrari and return to the pits".
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:00
So Race Control said that? They might say that about any car that spins.
Yes, but it ties in with the wording of the rule.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:01
They did with Lando's lap yesterday, so that shouldn't be a problem.
As unpopular as it would be, I think AM have a case here. Race control stated that Sainz was stopped on track. The question now is if race control wishes to "correct the record", so to speak, and say they were mistaken in making that statement.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:01
Race control say a lot of things.. and sometime correct those things when new information arises.
I agree, and that's what this will hinge on, I think. If race control insists it was correct to have deemed that Sainz had stopped, then AM's protest will surely succeed.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:08
I agree, and that's what this will hinge on, I think. If race control insists it was correct to have deemed that Sainz had stopped, then AM's protest will surely succeed.
I don't see why Race Control pointing it out like that makes any difference.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:11
Cue endless debate about what "stops" means.
While we're at it: What does "on the track" mean?
Article 39.6:
"Any driver whose car stops on the track during the qualifying session or the sprint shootout will not be permitted to take any further part in that session."
On the other hand, Article 33.3:
"Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track."
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:14
I don't see why Race Control pointing it out like that makes any difference.
Race control messages are effectively the "record" of the session, observing and stating on-track realities: the session has begun, the session has ended, red flag, so on. If race control deemed Sainz to have stopped (and wish to stand by that statement), that will surely be key for the stewards in making a decision on this.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:16
AM moaning about something else.......like night following day.....
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:18
While we're at it: What does "on the track" mean?
Article 39.6:
"Any driver whose car stops on the track during the qualifying session or the sprint shootout will not be permitted to take any further part in that session."
On the other hand, Article 33.3:
"Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track."
If we're going to get into the weeds, that's a good point.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:34
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:35
Is the pits part of the track? Potentially dq all of them. Popcorn!
The pits are part of the track.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:46
The pits are part of the track.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:51
The pits are part of the track.
There are some instances in the Sporting Regulations that suggest it might not be ...
3.13.13.4
All persons concerned in any way with an entered car or present in any other capacity whatsoever in the paddock, pit lane, or track must wear an appropriate pass at all times.
4.12.555.5
No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.
4.13.356.3
No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the VSC procedure is in use. This will apply whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.
5.11.426.16
Animals, except those which may have been expressly authorised by the FIA for use by security services, are forbidden on the track, in the pit lane, in the paddock or in any spectator area.
These all suggest that the "pit lane" is a separate entity from "the track".
EDIT:
The article numbers were from the 2022 regs. I've updated to use the 2024 article numbers.
Edited by pdac, 20 April 2024 - 12:03.
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Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:52
when will we find out the news as its a bit late in china?
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:58
I actually don't mind Aston lodging a protest here. They obviously stand to gain if ruled in favour but ultimately, the main thing will be that this will clarify the rule.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 11:59
Whatever you're smoking maybe it's time to quit. The whole paddock, bar Ferrari, is wanting his signature on a contract... he'll race next year and many years to come.
I am not so sure, as RBR seem to be close to resigning Checo and AM will probably keep Lance. So you are left with Mercedes and Audi. Neither looks particularly promising.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:04
Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:14
Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:14
Oh. https://www.motorspo...crash/10601131/
The FIA has announced that Aston Martin has lodged a protest of the qualifying results over Article 39.6 of the F1 sporting regulations, which states: “Any driver whose car stops on the track during the qualifying session or the sprint qualifying session shootout will not be permitted to take any further part in that session.”
The FIA race control messages stated that Sainz had stopped on track during the red flag period, before he was able to fire up his Ferrari and return to the pits.
The rule is in place to stop drivers getting assistance from marshals or recovery vehicles to potentially rejoin the session under a red flag, but doesn’t cover the eventuality of a driver being able to continue under their own power.
Should the rule be changed to cover the eventuality that the driver, through his own error, has caused sufficient damage to the barrier, etc. that a red flag was necessary to make good?
Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:20
A lot of people are saying it's "silly" and "no case" but 2 hours and 20 minutes passed since the start of the meeting and there is still no decision.
Edited by Joseki, 20 April 2024 - 12:22.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:30
If the message was indeed the product of an automated system, as TomNokoe suggests, then AM's case becomes weaker. I imagine there will be some effort to tighten up the wording of the regulations after this.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 12:31
when will we find out the news as its a bit late in china?
Tomorrow after the race most likely
Posted 20 April 2024 - 13:02
While we're at it: What does "on the track" mean?
Article 39.6:
"Any driver whose car stops on the track during the qualifying session or the sprint shootout will not be permitted to take any further part in that session."
On the other hand, Article 33.3:
"Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track."
Article 39.6 refers to a car that STOPS on track. Article 33.3 refers to a car LEAVING the track. But if the TRACK is considered to be the bit between the white lines, then the counter argument would be that the car did not stop on the track and only stopped once it had left the track.
Again, it just shows how sloppy the FIA are at defining the terms that they use to word the rules. Someone gets paid for this rubbish.
Posted 20 April 2024 - 13:05
Agreed. I'm amazed they don't have a lawyer on retainer to point out all these holes and help them with the language of the regulations.