93 replies to this topic

[GrumpyYoungMan]

I'm following ANF's post above, quoting Motorsport.com: "The FIA race control messages stated that Sainz had stopped on track during the red flag period, before he was able to fire up his Ferrari and return to the pits".

If the ICE had physically stopped and he restarted it then he stopped as that is a rule break?

[NotAPineapple]

I don't think it is, as if there was no red flag then I doubt protesting would have crossed their mind. Otherwise any driver who spins and stops before rejoining could be protested...

I'm just going on what the rule says. Not what I think it should say.

It clearly say if you stop you are you are out. As stupid as the rule may be, it's extremely clearly defined.

[Leif Snellman]

So if you damage a wing near the end of a qualifying session, you can just stop the car and wait for a red flag. Then restart and  return to the pit without rush and additionally you get some five minute repair time,  I don't say Carlos did it deliberately today but this is what we will see in the future if this is not sorted out.

[PayasYouRace]

So if you damage a wing near the end of a qualifying session, you can just stop the car and wait for a red flag. Then restart and  return to the pit without rush and additionally you get some five minute repair time,  I don't say Carlos did it deliberately today but this is what we will see in the future if this is not sorted out.

 

Better than the alternative which is getting excluded from the session after a spin, because you "stopped".

[ConsiderAndGo]

Official. Protest dismissed, as expected. Sainz stays in P7.

Aston didn’t like that it took a minute 17 to restart, but, hilariously, because the teams in the past have discussed this but, obviously, not agreed what a “reasonable timescale” is, it’s been dismissed

Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 20 April 2024 - 13:28.

[SophieB]

Dismissed. Interesting reasoning, will upload the document in a minute

[PayasYouRace]

Official. Protest dismissed, as expected. Sainz stays in P7.

 

Good. Sensible heads prevailed.

[SophieB]

 

 

[Joseki]

This is comical

 

 

They forgot to change the rule they agreed to change for this year.

[krapmeister]

Common-sense and F1 don't often go together, but every once in a while it happens...

[ConsiderAndGo]

In a nutshell, shows the utter incompetence of those who steward the sport.

[Muppetmad]

A perfectly reasonable decision, but still with some embarrassing elements, including the fact that everyone knew this was a potential problem but couldn't agree on what is a reasonable length of time to be stopped before being considered stopped.

[BleuMurmure]

for anyone wondering, Race Control also vigorously disputes the meaning of the word: “incompetent”.

[pdac]

When is a rule not a rule ... when it's not been applied that way in the past.

 

That's got to be the argument used by anyone about any rule from now on.

Edited by pdac, 20 April 2024 - 13:45.

[BleuMurmure]

When is a rule not a rule ... when it's not been applied that way in the past.

That's got to be the argument used by anyone about any rule from now on.

Given how inconsistent the stewarding is, one can find past examples as they see fit.

This case is clearly a muck up of the FIA’s own making. They didn’t change the rule, RC didn’t clarify the language of the messaging system/was trigger happy to declare Sainz stopped.

The stewards, who are oh-so independent, but get their all expenses paid trip to the race, are definitely not interested to rock the boat, and the cycle continues…

[IrvTheSwerve]

So if you damage a wing near the end of a qualifying session, you can just stop the car and wait for a red flag. Then restart and  return to the pit without rush and additionally you get some five minute repair time,  I don't say Carlos did it deliberately today but this is what we will see in the future if this is not sorted out.

One would presume that the stewards would investigate that instance (just like this one) with all of the data/radio comms and deem it as dangerous driving, if they’ve stopped on a live track for no reason.

[Ruusperi]

They forgot to change the rule they agreed to change for this year.

How am I not surprised? Anyway, sensible decision.

 

Now, one thing that might become an issue in the future is whether the driver should be allowed to drive damaged car back to the pit. Like if the car is shedding parts, leaking oil or burning (like Verstappen in Melbourne). Then again, where do you draw the line?

Edited by Ruusperi, 20 April 2024 - 14:08.

[KWSN - DSM]

I would like to have them be in a situation where Sainz did not benefit from a Red Flag caused by him, however the vagueness of rules with the added precedence make the non-penalty correct - As always poor rulemaking make for contentious results.

[ANF]

Interesting that "a number of the teams requested to be present at the hearing" and that there were "examples cited by a number of the team managers present". That's not very common, is it?

[Heyli]

Sadly, in my wife's opinion, she thinks 1 minute 17 is not considered too long.

[ensign14]

This is comical

 

 

They forgot to change the rule they agreed to change for this year.

That's actually really bad, because, from a legal perspective, and adopting the rule in Pepper v Hart, that suggests the legislators knew the legislation applied to anyone who stopped, and failed to make the recommended correction.  So why did they not do so?  Because they did not want to adopt it?

[Metronazol]

Interesting that "a number of the teams requested to be present at the hearing" and that there were "examples cited by a number of the team managers present". That's not very common, is it?

I imagine most teams would be interested in the precedent set at this hearing - if the protest had been upheld there would have been wide ranging consequences.

[KWSN - DSM]

Interesting that "a number of the teams requested to be present at the hearing" and that there were "examples cited by a number of the team managers present". That's not very common, is it?

 

I think depend on the matter at had, pretty sure remember happened before, without truly remembering then either Hamilton's Monza penalty when Gasly won, or Vettel not able to produce a fuel sample.

[Bendo]

Aston frequently crying about nothing is starting to get tiresome.

[Myrvold]

Too bad they can't just add the IndyCar system.

[RedRabbit]

Aston frequently crying about nothing is starting to get tiresome.

And yet it's led to a clarification of the rule. Which is most likely the intention.

Of course, following from this, the next time George Russell damages a wing during qualifying, I fully expect him to stop on the track and wait for a red flag before restarting his car and driving back. 😂

[Disgrace]

Aston frequently crying about nothing is starting to get tiresome.

 

I wouldn't put it that way. Their protests in Saudi and Austria last year were valid and valuable.

[Shambolic]

I still can’t get my head around the fact that when you cause a red flag, you can still proceed in qualifying.

It seems wrong... Until you remember the reds that have been thrown for a car barely off track, merrily making its own way out of some gravel.

[Sterzo]

"As contemplated in the International Sporting code, and not withstanding that they brought their own sandwiches, the official Stewards considered it appropriate in the circumstances to spend the fee of 2000 Euros on the most enormous Chinese meal."

[Ruusperi]

It seems wrong... Until you remember the reds that have been thrown for a car barely off track, merrily making its own way out of some gravel.

Indeed. If you watched WEC today, Freitas threw a red flag for a car doing 360°.

Edited by Ruusperi, 20 April 2024 - 16:22.

[JL14]

I think it was a 'masterstroke' of Sainz to wait for the red flag to be thrown and only then restart his car and return to the pits. Otherwise his qualifying would have been over, if he had to return and get repaired with the clock still ticking.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I think it was a 'masterstroke' of Sainz to wait for the red flag to be thrown and only then restart his car and return to the pits. Otherwise his qualifying would have been over, if he had to return and get repaired with the clock still ticking.

The Red flag would have been thrown regardless of him stopping, due to debris.

[PayasYouRace]

Why does this rule even exist anyway? What possible unfair advantage does anyone gain from repairing their car and going out again?

[New Britain]

Why does this rule even exist anyway? What possible unfair advantage does anyone gain from repairing their car and going out again?

Isn't the argument that, by causing a red flag, you are 'unfairly' (as in, unjustifiably) hindering your competitors, and for having done that you should not get a reprieve? Your competitors are ready to carry on  but cannot do so because of your actions; you are forcing them to interrupt their programs although you are not in a position immediately to carry on yourself.

Perhaps a compromise would be that your team would not be allowed to touch your car for checks or repairs until the green light came back on?

[PayasYouRace]

Isn't the argument that, by causing a red flag, you are 'unfairly' (as in, unjustifiably) hindering your competitors, and for having done that you should not get a reprieve? Your competitors are ready to carry on  but cannot do so because of your actions; you are forcing them to interrupt their programs although you are not in a position immediately to carry on yourself.

Perhaps a compromise would be that your team would not be allowed to touch your car for checks or repairs until the green light came back on?

 

But this rule also applies to cars that have broken down and gone up an escape road or something, and haven't interrupted track running at all.

[AustinF1]

I still can’t get my head around the fact that when you cause a red flag, you can still proceed in qualifying.

Yeah it's really crazy.

[New Britain]

But this rule also applies to cars that have broken down and gone up an escape road or something, and haven't interrupted track running at all.

 

Sorry, which rule - the 'stopping' rule that Aston said should have resulted in Sainz's preclusion from further qualifying?

[Gravelngrass]

I still can’t get my head around the fact that when you cause a red flag, you can still proceed in qualifying.

WHY?

[Clatter]

If the ICE had physically stopped and he restarted it then he stopped as that is a rule break?

Does the ice have to have stopped to classify a car as stopped? A driver could spin stop and then get the car back into gear before continueing, still technically stopped. Still if we want to be silly about it technically he didn't stop on track, he was off it on the grass. Rule 33.3 defines the track as between the white lines, and anything outside the lines is not part of the track.

Edited by Clatter, 20 April 2024 - 22:45.

[JimmyClark]

Yeah it's really crazy.

The problem is that the FIA throw really spurious red flags these days - if you cause a red flag for putting some gravel on the track or a wing endplate falling off, should you lose your lap or your participation in the session?

[loki]

How am I not surprised? Anyway, sensible decision.

 

Now, one thing that might become an issue in the future is whether the driver should be allowed to drive damaged car back to the pit. Like if the car is shedding parts, leaking oil or burning (like Verstappen in Melbourne). Then again, where do you draw the line?

There is already a rule to forbid that.  If they think it’s unsafe they throw an equipment flag (meatball flag for us Colonials).  While it’s a return to pits flag if it’s unsafe enough they can black flag them and park them.

[AustinF1]

The problem is that the FIA throw really spurious red flags these days - if you cause a red flag for putting some gravel on the track or a wing endplate falling off, should you lose your lap or your participation in the session?

Yeah I agree that's a problem too, and the Sainz example isn't the best one re: 'causing' a red flag.

[Lesky]

Probably Alonso behind it trying to get back at Sainz for the penalty Fernando got running Sainz of track, would be typical Alonso playing games!

[Brod]

Probably Alonso behind it trying to get back at Sainz for the penalty Fernando got running Sainz of track, would be typical Alonso playing games!

 

Yes. Alonso ist the true tp of AM. Sound logic.