371 replies to this topic

[FirstnameLastname]

He’s been driving like he’s full of desperation recently… amassing points on his license so quickly that if he gets 2 more he gets an automatic race ban

When was the last driver to have a race ban? Grosjean if I recall right?

Will they actually stick to their guns and give Kevin a ban I wonder.

[Muppetmad]

I don't see Magnussen being able to avoid getting involved in some sort of incident that warrants penalty points, and I don't see the teams responding at all well if Magnussen isn't given penalty points when he deserves them. So yes, I think a ban is coming sooner or later this season.

[PayasYouRace]

How many penalty points did he earn just in Miami?

[Colbul1]

I think a race ban is a real possibility and that would likely see Ollie Bearman in the car.  If Ollie did well, could Haas keep him in the car as K-Mag's replacement?

[JvsKVB77]

How many penalty points did he earn just in Miami?

5

[Frood]

The FIA aren't afraid to hand out race bans in F2. Mahaveer Raghunathan (twice!), Amaury Cordeel, Olli Caldwell, and Roy Nissany have all had bans in the last few years. It's just F1 where they seem to stop giving out penalty points when a driver nears 12. I don't know whether it's to save face or negative headlines, but there does seem to be a reluctance to ban F1 drivers.

Mind you, the bans only seemed to work 50% of the time, considering Raghunathan was terrible enough to be banned twice and Nissany still drove like a **** afterwards... Caldwell and Cordeel seemed to calm down, at least on the track (Cordeel has been banned on the road since).

Edited by Frood, 07 May 2024 - 10:26.

[PayasYouRace]

5

I’d probably have a rule that earning more than 4 in a single weekend would be grounds for a race ban too. If we take the penalty points out of the question, I’d be sitting him out for a weekend on his Miami behaviour alone.

[noikeee]

How many penalty points did he earn just in Miami?

 

Not enough.

[pacificquay]

Do we think that Liberty-era F1 where the drivers are heavily promoted as part of the package, feature in the title sequence and marketing etc, is less likely to ban drivers than in the past?

 

Albeit it should be a matter for the FIA not the commercial rights holders...

[balmybaldwin]

It wouldn't surprise me if they do ban him for a race for marketing reasons. Would be good for the Netflix show.  K Mag is already cast as the bad boy

[FirstnameLastname]

Bearman the likely winner if Kev gets a ban.

Bottas + Bearman at Haas next year?

[tourister46a]

If he gets a race ban, would the penalty points get reset to zero?

[pacificquay]

If he gets a race ban, would the penalty points get reset to zero?

 

Yes

[Risil]

Looking forward to Magnussen's inevitable crashing and barging on his first race back. He's paid his debt to society! Now it's payback time!

[Radoye]

I think that any penalty coming Magnussen's way should actually affect both Haas cars, since most of the penalty points he gathered following instructions from the team to hold cars behind him no matter what so that Hulk can get points. So maybe park Magnussen with no replacement in his car but no constructor's points for Haas for the same duration even if Hulk in the other car gets a point of a few? IMO a strong message needs to be sent to all teams that these kinds of shenanigans are discouraged.

 

[Beri]

I think a race ban is a real possibility and that would likely see Ollie Bearman in the car. If Ollie did well, could Haas keep him in the car as K-Mag's replacement?

No, as Hulkenbergs replacement come 2025.

[FirstnameLastname]

Yeah, Kev’s replacement is Valterri

Hes becoming the ‘do dumb **** so the other car can score points’ guy… and he obviously thinks it might curry favour with the team, but it just makes him look a liability all while Hulk scores the points and takes the glory

[Myrvold]

I’d probably have a rule that earning more than 4 in a single weekend would be grounds for a race ban too. If we take the penalty points out of the question, I’d be sitting him out for a weekend on his Miami behaviour alone.

 

I think 5 points in a single weekend = race ban can be too harsh again. While I believe they should hand out race bans a bit easier than what they do now, I fear a 5 point limit for a weekend can cause issues in itself. I would rather have that they get a bit more strict, and give out more penalty points for things.

[Baddoer]

Why not? Race bans are fun.

[LolaB0860]

Do we think that Liberty-era F1 where the drivers are heavily promoted as part of the package, feature in the title sequence and marketing etc, is less likely to ban drivers than in the past?

Probably, but I also think they paid a nice bonus for the guy who wrote this motorsport.com frontpage headliner article today and put positive spin on everything. It's like a Liberty script for cartoon villain (or anti-hero)

ALL HAIL KEVIN MAGNUSSEN, THE CHAOS KING OF MIAMI
https://www.motorspo...-king/10607915/

Sprint race naysayers should at this point have admitted it was a far better spectacle than any free practice session

-- Anyone who has ever raced a motor car could see what was happening to Magnussen in that race—could sympathize with how he ended up over-driving the car and having it all turn messy. I watched it thinking, “He’s stepped well over the line there and deserves a bigger punishment.” It took the ever-level-headed Martin Brundle on the U.K. Sky feed to persuade me otherwise, as he defended hard racing and said matters never became dangerous. Brundle is the oracle.

-- If K-MAG actually was a Copenhagen rap artist with an album to sell, I’d have purchased several copies right there and then. His confession was supported by Lewis shrugging to the same camera a few minutes later; he’d enjoyed the hard racing, too. We proxy non-experts had been offended on their behalves, but the actual competitors just got on with it. Didn’t care. No problem. Probably that’s why they’re F1 drivers and we’re not.

--But it did, at least, offer us hope for more such excitement in the coming races—some of which will no doubt hinge on how the great K-MAG decides to influence matters.

Edited by LolaB0860, 07 May 2024 - 13:48.

[PayasYouRace]

I think 5 points in a single weekend = race ban can be too harsh again. While I believe they should hand out race bans a bit easier than what they do now, I fear a 5 point limit for a weekend can cause issues in itself. I would rather have that they get a bit more strict, and give out more penalty points for things.

How many drivers have racked up 5 in a single weekend? I don’t think it’s too harsh at all, given the absolute madness Magnussen had to get up to this weekend to do so.

[taffer]

I can even foresee the FIA statement:

 

'In view of recent and repeated infringements from driver Kevin Magsussen that have translated into him running out of points in his superlicense, after thorough consideration we decided to ban Fernando Alonso from driving in the next GP'. 

[Anderis]

The FIA aren't afraid to hand out race bans in F2. Mahaveer Raghunathan (twice!), Amaury Cordeel, Olli Caldwell, and Roy Nissany have all had bans in the last few years. It's just F1 where they seem to stop giving out penalty points when a driver nears 12. I don't know whether it's to save face or negative headlines, but there does seem to be a reluctance to ban F1 drivers.

 

I think the reluctance might have come from the fact that no driver really deserved the ban since the system had been introduced. All drivers that came near a ban got most of their points for relatively minor and unconnected incidents, not some particularly dangerous driving or unsportsmanlike behaviour or repeated offences.

 

Magnussen may be a different story. He's lucky to get away with just 3 points for Miami sprint. And it's not the first time he's done something similar. So he probably warrants a race ban more than anyone before him (since the penalty points have been introduced).
 

Edited by Anderis, 07 May 2024 - 14:11.

[JimmyClark]

Don't forget Sargeant got two penalty points for being millimetres in front of the pit line when exiting next to Hulkenberg in China, which to be honest he would have had no control over. I think that was a terribly harsh penalty, given he also got a time penalty, but it would be almost hilarious if Magnussen got a race ban for doing something similar. But the FIA can't *not* give penalty points in such a scenario as they've already set the precedent. 

 

So Kevin could be the cleanest racer ever for the rest of the year, only to be undone by a minor mistake from his team. It's a risky position to be in. 

[Myrvold]

How many drivers have racked up 5 in a single weekend? I don’t think it’s too harsh at all, given the absolute madness Magnussen had to get up to this weekend to do so.

 

I guess it comes from a wish I have that they should be more strict, and thus it being easier to reach 12.

 

I think the reluctance might have come from the fact that no driver really deserved the ban since the system had been introduced. All drivers that came near a ban got most of their points for relatively minor and unconnected incidents, not some particularly dangerous driving or unsportsmanlike behaviour or repeated offences.

 

But the whole reason they went for that system, was to avoid any subjective "does this driver deserve a ban or not".  If they then go "hmm, this might be a bit harsh, lets not give penalty points, so we avoid a race ban" then the whole system is pointless.

[Myrvold]

Don't forget Sargeant got two penalty points for being millimetres in front of the pit line when exiting next to Hulkenberg in China, which to be honest he would have had no control over. I think that was a terribly harsh penalty, given he also got a time penalty, but it would be almost hilarious if Magnussen got a race ban for doing something similar. But the FIA can't *not* give penalty points in such a scenario as they've already set the precedent. 

 

So Kevin could be the cleanest racer ever for the rest of the year, only to be undone by a minor mistake from his team. It's a risky position to be in. 

 

It is the drivers responsibility to not overtake under safety car though, a 10 second penalty and 2 penalty points seems pretty much spot on for overtaking under sc conditions.

[PayasYouRace]

I guess it comes from a wish I have that they should be more strict, and thus it being easier to reach 12.


But the whole reason they went for that system, was to avoid any subjective "does this driver deserve a ban or not". If they then go "hmm, this might be a bit harsh, lets not give penalty points, so we avoid a race ban" then the whole system is pointless.

I get you. I’m not beholden to 5. It’s just that I believe a driver who has racked up multiple penalties in a single race should receive a ban.

Perhaps penalty points should be more automatic. Get a five second penalty, 1 penalty point. Get a 10 second penalty, 2 pp. Drive through gets you 3. Stop and go gets you 4, DQ gets you 5. Then have two thresholds. One for a single weekend and one for a 12 month period. Exceed that, and you’re sitting on the naughty step.

[JimmyClark]

It is the drivers responsibility to not overtake under safety car though, a 10 second penalty and 2 penalty points seems pretty much spot on for overtaking under sc conditions.

 

Without rehashing old ground as this isn't the thread for it, it was hardly overtaking in the traditional sense of the word (i.e. going for a move on track) - it was unfortunate timing. There was absolutely no safety issue; they were about 5 car widths apart when he entered the track. 

 

But it follows a lot of bizarre decisions this year that have either been too harsh or far too soft, so basically any driver needing to avoid getting 2 points over 18 races, as is the case with Magnussen, has a slim chance of succeeding given how unpredictable the penalties are right now. 

[JimmyClark]

Perhaps penalty points should be more automatic. Get a five second penalty, 1 penalty point. Get a 10 second penalty, 2 pp. Drive through gets you 3. Stop and go gets you 4, DQ gets you 5. Then have two thresholds. One for a single weekend and one for a 12 month period. Exceed that, and you’re sitting on the naughty step.

 

I like this idea, but then track limits need to be sorted - half the grid will be banned after the Austrian weekend! 

[MikeTekRacing]

But the FIA can't *not* give penalty points in such a scenario as they've already set the precedent. 

 

So Kevin could be the cleanest racer ever for the rest of the year, only to be undone by a minor mistake from his team. It's a risky position to be in. 

since when have the stewards been acting like this? if anything, they are known to have not one set of precedents, but several and use them at their discretion

we have analyzed and found these mitigating factors

[DaddyCool]

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here and say that Kmag did absolutely nothing that should merit a race ban under the current racing standards/regulations.

 

People have been getting away completely without any repercussions or laughable slap-on-the-wrist penalties for everything he has done this weekend (forcing people off the track, divebombing and carrying on the runoff, etc.)

 

It's the absolutely ridiculous racing standards ("""etiquette""") and penalties that are to blame. As the old saying goes, hate the game, not the player.

Edited by DaddyCool, 07 May 2024 - 16:03.

[Sterzo]

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here and say that Kmag did absolutely nothing that should merit a race ban under the current racing standards/regulations.

 

People have been getting away completely without any repercussions or laughable slap-on-the-wrist penalties for everything he has done this weekend (forcing people off the track, divebombing and carrying on the runoff, etc.)

 

It's the absolutely ridiculous racing standards ("""etiquette""") and penalties that are to blame. As the old saying goes, hate the game, not the player.

I should like to answer by quoting a philosopher called Dave, who officiated at hire kart meetings. He said everyone he penalised complained that others had done worse things. He would respond: "I apologise for not spotting the others. Good job I saw you. You're disqualified."

[MikeTekRacing]

I should like to answer by quoting a philosopher called Dave, who officiated at hire kart meetings. He said everyone he penalised complained that others had done worse things. He would respond: "I apologise for not spotting the others. Good job I saw you. You're disqualified."

that's very good at hire kart level.

At a top level with lots of replays consistency is a must.

[William Hunt]

If Kevin gets a race ban, and since he is already at 10 Penalty Licence Points with 12 resulting in a ban, I think he is going to get one. Unless he suddenly starts to drive very carefully. His current 10 pts. will only lower in March 2025 so he can't have another race like in Jeddah or Miami anymore. But if he gets a ban then I think that will open up an opportunity for Haas to run Oliver Bearman that race.

Edited by William Hunt, 07 May 2024 - 17:09.

[Anderis]

But the whole reason they went for that system, was to avoid any subjective "does this driver deserve a ban or not".  If they then go "hmm, this might be a bit harsh, lets not give penalty points, so we avoid a race ban" then the whole system is pointless.

I believe your take is wrong and it was not the reason for introducing the system at all.

 

I believe the discussions about the system began around 2012, when Grosjean was consistently involved in 1st lap accidents throughout the year until he caused a big one in Spa and Maldonado was causing collisions with other drivers literally every second race through his reckless driving. The point was that getting a drive-through or a 10 place grid penalty was not that big of a deal and seemingly not harsh enough of a penalty for some drivers to learn their lesson and their driving remained consistently dangerous for a prolonged period of time. That's why the idea of a race ban was born- so that drivers who repeatedly cause collisions with other drivers have a bigger threat over their head than just another small penalty that never seems to correct their dangerous driving.

 

The problem with the penalty system is that the implementation did not really work to the intended idea. Drivers started to receive penalty points on minor offences and technicalities instead of just causing collisions or driving in a particularly reckless and dangerous way. A great example of this is Sargeant's penalty in China. Such offences were not the reason why the idea was born, but they started to inflate the penalty point tallies of particular drivers to the point that they were threatened a race ban without being repeated offenders of ruining the race for other drivers. I belive Hamilton came 1 potential penalty short of a race ban a few years ago? Without doing anything particularly dangerous compared to all other drivers all year. That was totally ridiculous. And that's why I believe the stewards may have been reluctant in giving more penalty points once a driver came close to a ban. Because nobody really deserved the ban and it would spark a discussion and controversy about how flawed the system is, giving F1 some negative publicity. And to be honest, the system is flawed and does not work to its original intentions. There should be a higher threshold of what kind of an incident deserves penalty points. Technicalities like Sargeant's penalty in China should not award penalty points. Then we wouldn't have a problem of drivers undeserving of a ban coming close to a ban and this kind of leniency wouldn't be needed.

[Spillage]

I think he's a bit desperate because he has no contract for next year and is consistently being beaten by Hulkenberg. 

 

That said, tbf I think the Sargeant crash wasn't his fault. he was entitled to go for that. Sargeant should have been using his mirrors. Some of Kevin's driving on Saturday was over the top though.

[Ruusperi]

But if he gets a ban then I think that will open up an opportunity for Haas to run Oliver Bearman that race.

Although if he gets 2 penalty points in qualifying, no one can replace him for the race so we're left with 19 cars, and in the next round his penalty points get reset to 0 anyway.

[genius83]

I think penalty points should only be awarded for driving behaviour during on the track and that means all the pit lane infringements should not results in penalty points either. As we have a case where Pierre Gasly was on the verge of ban because of 10 penalty points and then another incident happens (which previously results in time penalty plus 2 penalty points) but that time stewards avoided giving penalty points and only time penalty was applied. So we already have at least 2 incidents where stewards avoided giving penalty points as drivers were on the verge of race ban.

 

Now as for Magnussen, if he does the same thing in Imola or Monaco we can be sure that a ban is going to happen. 

[PayasYouRace]

Although if he gets 2 penalty points in qualifying, no one can replace him for the race so we're left with 19 cars, and in the next round his penalty points get reset to 0 anyway.

Generally a race ban is a total ban from the event, so if he were to get a excluded from an event for something in qualifying, he’d still have to serve the ban at a later race.

[Myrvold]

Although if he gets 2 penalty points in qualifying, no one can replace him for the race so we're left with 19 cars, and in the next round his penalty points get reset to 0 anyway.

 

From the F1 Sporting Regulations.

 

From what I can understand, Magnussen would be allowed to race the race, but miss the next race weekend (competition).

[JvsKVB77]

From the F1 Sporting Regulations.

 

From what I can understand, Magnussen would be allowed to race the race, but miss the next race weekend (competition).

It works exactly this way at F2. 

 

I like this idea, but then track limits need to be sorted - half the grid will be banned after the Austrian weekend! 

This year stewards stop giving penalty points for track limits penalty, as i see.

[danmills]

Imagine if this existed in the 90s Senna / Schumacher era.

 

They'd each have as many bans as they had titles.

 

Consistent stewarding is the biggest issue. We still have people feeling like KMag was perfectly within reason yet also those demanding an immediate ban.

 

He was racing. I've seen as bad, if not worse examples, and seen other drivers avoid even a simple telling off for it.

[Sterzo]

that's very good at hire kart level.

At a top level with lots of replays consistency is a must.

Agreed - but we should complain about the ones which aren't penalised correctly, rather than object to the ones which are, simply because other incidents weren't. (As commonly happens on the forum).

Edited by Sterzo, 07 May 2024 - 18:50.

[MikeTekRacing]

Agreed - but we should complain about the ones which aren't penalised correctly, rather than object to the ones which are, simply because other incidents weren't. (As commonly happens on the forum).

totally onboard

[Frood]

I'd also like to see permanent stewards, but even if they're as highly trained as possible, I'd imagine that we'd still get complaints that "these stewards are biased!"

[PayasYouRace]

Imagine if this existed in the 90s Senna / Schumacher era.

 

They'd each have as many bans as they had titles.

 

Consistent stewarding is the biggest issue. We still have people feeling like KMag was perfectly within reason yet also those demanding an immediate ban.

 

He was racing. I've seen as bad, if not worse examples, and seen other drivers avoid even a simple telling off for it.

 

The stewards are way more consistent than the fans, that's for sure.

[Ruusperi]

 

From what I can understand, Magnussen would be allowed to race the race, but miss the next race weekend (competition).

Interesting. So if he gets 12 penalty points on Friday or Saturday, but knows his tally will reset after the ban, he can do whatever he wants on Sunday? Receive 10, 20, or 50 penalty points? Whatever, it gets reset anyway.

Ok, you would probably lose FIA super license. And it's not like drivers, who know they will retire from F1, wreak havoc on purpose just because it's their last race and they cannot receive a race ban. Yet, if you don't care about losing your FIA license, and if you're a millionaire, then I guess you can do whatever you want. I wonder where's the limit of breaking sporting rules and breaking actual laws. If you drive backwards, do you just get banned or do you end up in jail? What about skipping all corners? All the things we used to do in video games . Not obeying black flag or red flag?

Edited by Ruusperi, 07 May 2024 - 20:31.

[Gambelli]

I've just heard Kevin has a ban for Imola.

 

Apparently at the airport he ran another commuter off the thoroughfare with his luggage trolley, he was given a 10 sec penalty and 2 penalty points.  Apparently it was quite a collision....

 

The poor other commuter didn't bring a spare suitcase with them so now only one of the couple gets to go on holidays and their partner has to stay home till they get another suitcase, which they are hoping to have before their next holiday...

[balmybaldwin]

Interesting. So if he gets 12 penalty points on Friday or Saturday, but knows his tally will reset after the ban, he can do whatever he wants on Sunday? Receive 10, 20, or 50 penalty points? Whatever, it gets reset anyway.

Ok, you would probably lose FIA super license. And it's not like drivers, who know they will retire from F1, wreak havoc on purpose just because it's their last race and they cannot receive a race ban. Yet, if you don't care about losing your FIA license, and if you're a millionaire, then I guess you can do whatever you want. I wonder where's the limit of breaking sporting rules and breaking actual laws. If you drive backwards, do you just get banned or do you end up in jail? What about skipping all corners? All the things we used to do in video games . Not obeying black flag or red flag?

The regulations don't wipe the late clean, they remove 12 points.  So in your example acrueing another 20 points in the race would (should) leave him with another ban to serve and 8 points on his license

Edited by balmybaldwin, 07 May 2024 - 21:20.

[BoDarvelle]

I see a whole lot of people that apparently are fans of time trials.

 

Racing? Not so much.

 

*As a reminder, Hamilton said he quite enjoyed his battle with Mag.