85 replies to this topic

[WonderWoman61]

Saw Bobby Thompson being interviewed on the grid for Race 2 of the Brands Hatch Indy leg of the 2024 British Touring Car Championship. He's got to be one of the greatest BTCC drivers of recent times who has yet to win a race in the series.

Can anyone think of any others?

As well as Bobby T, I was also thinking of Adam Jones earlier on today.

[messy]

Patrick Watts maybe? He was really strong at times and in the Super Touring era but was stuck in a (lovely looking but) brick slow Peugeot most of the time.

[WonderWoman61]

Patrick Watts maybe? He was really strong at times and in the Super Touring era but was stuck in a (lovely looking but) brick slow Peugeot most of the time.

Yes.

Would have been nice to see Jonathan Adam get a win and actually keep it.

[Sterzo]

Nigel Mansell.

 

Please send winner's prize a.s.a.p.

Edited by Sterzo, 13 May 2024 - 12:03.

[marksixman]

Nigel Mansell.

 

Please send winner's prize a.s.a.p.

No !

[WonderWoman61]

I think James Pickford was unlucky not to score at least 1 win in 2005. He was no Rob Huff but still...

[F1matt]

Nigel Mansell.

 

Please send winner's prize a.s.a.p.

 

 

Sterzo has closed this thread when he typed Nigel Mansell. One of the greatest racers of all time and pure box office in any formula. His performance in the rain at Donnington in 1998 against some of the greatest drivers the BTCC has ever had and he almost won, after starting almost last. I can still remember that race.  Whatever TOCA paid him for that drive it was worth it.

 

There should be a Ford Mondeo Cap sent to the poster as a prize!

[bsc]

Sterzo has closed this thread when he typed Nigel Mansell. One of the greatest racers of all time and pure box office in any formula. His performance in the rain at Donnington in 1998 against some of the greatest drivers the BTCC has ever had and he almost won, after starting almost last. I can still remember that race.  Whatever TOCA paid him for that drive it was worth it.

I'm not convinced that Mansell is the greatest BTCC driver to not win a race. Firstly, leaving aside the TOCA shoot-out, he only did six races in '98. Of those, in five of those, he was beaten by his team mate. The second Donington race was entertaining, but the Mondeo worked fairly well in the rain - Will Hoy had previously won at Silverstone and had finished third in the first Donington race (where Mansell crashed). 

 

I'm tempted to suggest Johnny Cecotto.

[Collombin]

Nigel Mansell.

Please send winner's prize a.s.a.p.

If we take their whole driving career into account, would JYS fit the bill?

[BRG]

I think the answer must be Sir Stirling Moss for his two winless Audi seasons 1980/1.  Please re-direct that prize this way!

[Collombin]

In fairness the question is clearly worded to mean greatest BTCC drivers not to win, as opposed to greatest drivers to have ever driven in BTCC and not won, so I'm expecting a strict telling off coming our way soon.

[BRG]

What makes you a BTCC driver?  Other than driving in the BTCC?

[Collombin]

I meant only taking their BTCC career into account as opposed to all other forms of racing.

[Sterzo]

I submit to M'Learned friends that Mr Mansell did take part in the BTCC, whereas the esteemed Sir Stirling competed in an earlier series with a different title. This contradicts many sites on the new-fangled internet, which claim it started in 1958, but it was not known as the BTCC until 1987 (source below).

 

https://btcc.net/his...epth/1958-1990/

Edited by Sterzo, 13 May 2024 - 16:27.

[john winfield]

Dan Gurney?

or...

Harold Grace, alone of several Tring superstars.

[WonderWoman61]

Dan Gurney?
or...
Harold Grace, alone of several Tring superstars.

Gurney won a race at Oulton Park in 1963.

[john winfield]

Gurney won a race at Oulton Park in 1963.

Ah, my mistake. Harold Grace then, in his Riley.

[BRG]

I submit to M'Learned friends that Mr Mansell did take part in the BTCC, whereas the esteemed Sir Stirling competed in an earlier series with a different title. This contradicts many sites on the new-fangled internet, which claim it started in 1958, but it was not known as the BTCC until 1987 (source below).

 

https://btcc.net/his...epth/1958-1990/

What's in a name?  And Sir Stirling suffered for two whole seasons, unlike Mansell who flounced off early doors.  I reckon two seasons constitutes a BTCC career, especially when you had already retired from your previous career driving vintage cars.

[Collombin]

Whilst I suspect Stirling was a bit sick and tired of the obligatory "best driver never to be world champion" handle, I doubt that replacing it with "best driver never to win a BTCC race" is quite what he'd have hoped for.

Edited by Collombin, 14 May 2024 - 10:40.

[john aston]

I think the answer must be Sir Stirling Moss for his two winless Audi seasons 1980/1.  Please re-direct that prize this way!

Plain Mr Moss then. I saw his debut in the Audi at Mallory Park BTCC . It was painful . FWD and slicks were unhappy bedfellows for him and Martin Brundle made Moss look very much out of his comfort zone. 

 

If their mounts had been swapped for 300 SLRs it wold have looked very different I suspect.    

[F1Frog]

I would definitely go with Patrick Watts as top of this list, probably Adam Jones second. There are now just six drivers on the current grid yet to win, with Andrew Watson most likely to be the next new winner if Bobby Thompson doesn’t get a BMW soon.

[MCS]

This is a funny thread.  Two sides seemingly oblivious of each other: the modern day perspective in the first three posts and the one above (#21) against the Mansell, Moss and Gurney conversation elsewhere!

 

Meanwhile, somebody has suggested Harold Grace...  (Who?)

[opplock]

The OP referred to "greatest drivers of recent times" so perhaps this thread belongs in RC. 

 

Can I nominate myself as greatest Caterham driver never to win a race? That'll start a good debate. There are probably hundreds with a better claim. 

[F1matt]

This is a funny thread.  Two sides seemingly oblivious of each other: the modern day perspective in the first three posts and the one above (#21) against the Mansell, Moss and Gurney conversation elsewhere!

 

Meanwhile, somebody has suggested Harold Grace...  (Who?)

 

I am a fan of the BTCC and I have a lot of respect for the OP WonderWoman61, at one point I thought she must have worked in the paddock she was so knowledgeable about the series.

 

Trying to decide who is the best driver never to have won a race is an impossible task as the series has changed so much, chuck in the ability to become champion without having to win a race due to the class system, people like Chris Hodgetts and John Cleland with his first title and the task becomes even harder.

[BRG]

If their mounts had been swapped for 300 SLRs it wold have looked very different I suspect.    

Let's not forget that Martin Brundle was a Le Mans winner and World Sportscar Champion so I doubt if a 300SLR would have presented any problem for him.  

[john aston]

True - but he was  nobbut a lad in 1981 

[chr1s]

Barry Sheene! Please re-re-direct that prize this way!

[WonderWoman61]

What about James Kaye? Never even scored a podium until 2006. By this time, he had 2 Independent's titles and a Production Class title to his name, as well as being a former Honda works driver.

[sabrejet]

I think the answer must be Sir Stirling Moss for his two winless Audi seasons 1980/1.  Please re-direct that prize this way!

 

Yes! Stirling Moss wins every time. And compared to some VERY dreary suggestions (Mansell for god's sake!), it's nice to see a genuinely serious suggestion.

[WonderWoman61]

Jeff Uren, John Love and Alec Poole, simply because, thanks to the multiclass system, they each won a title but never actually won a race.

[WonderWoman61]

Saw Bobby Thompson being interviewed on the grid for Race 2 of the Brands Hatch Indy leg of the 2024 British Touring Car Championship. He's got to be one of the greatest BTCC drivers of recent times who has yet to win a race in the series.
Can anyone think of any others?
As well as Bobby T, I was also thinking of Adam Jones earlier on today.

That could all be about to change...
https://btcc.net/bob...acing-with-wsr/

[WonderWoman61]

Yes.
Would have been nice to see Jonathan Adam get a win and actually keep it.

Same goes for Ricky Collard. Stupid track limits!

[BRG]

Same goes for Ricky Collard. Stupid track limits!

 I would have liked to see Ricky succeed in BTCC and I think he had the potential to do so.   But track limits are the same for everybody and if you break them, too bad for you.

[PayasYouRace]

I submit to M'Learned friends that Mr Mansell did take part in the BTCC, whereas the esteemed Sir Stirling competed in an earlier series with a different title. This contradicts many sites on the new-fangled internet, which claim it started in 1958, but it was not known as the BTCC until 1987 (source below).

 

https://btcc.net/his...epth/1958-1990/

And your wife was born on her wedding day because that’s when she changed her name?

[WonderWoman61]

I would have liked to see Ricky succeed in BTCC and I think he had the potential to do so.   But track limits are the same for everybody and if you break them, too bad for you.

Well, when you've got Ash Sutton climbing all over the back of you, that does make things a lot harder.

[WonderWoman61]

And your wife was born on her wedding day because that’s when she changed her name?

This thread does also apply to the British Saloon Car Championship era just to clarify.

[La Sarthe]

A shout out to Holman 'Les' Blackburn, a quick Capri driver in the 70s who never quite crossed the line first. Classic Hermetite livery as well.

[WonderWoman61]

I was disappointed that Alex MacDowall didn't manage to score at least 1 win in the Chevrolet Cruze in 2010 and 2011. He at least got a pole.

[Dick Dastardly]

Jeff Uren, John Love and Alec Poole, simply because, thanks to the multiclass system, they each won a title but never actually won a race.

Add Bill McGovern to that list, he won the BSCC [?] 3 times consecutively.

Did Chris Craft win any BSCC races outright?  

[john winfield]

Add Bill McGovern to that list, he won the BSCC [?] 3 times consecutively.
Did Chris Craft win any BSCC races outright?

These were just the two I had in mind DD. Bill McGovern obviously had a big impact on the championship in the early 1970s, but was never going to win a race outright from 'Division 4'. But Chris Craft was a constant thorn in the side of the Camaros and Mustangs, great fun to see him harrying them at the tighter circuits. But did he win some races later in those Gordon Spice Capris? Probably.

[68targa]

I may have missed them but surely Steve Neal and John Fitzpatrick belong on this list, certainly class winners but did they ever acheive an outright win ?

[ensign14]

But Chris Craft was a constant thorn in the side of the Camaros and Mustangs, great fun to see him harrying them at the tighter circuits. But did he win some races later in those Gordon Spice Capris? Probably.

Won overall at Thruxton on 19 June 1977, at least.  Tony Dron second in a Dolly and Walkinshaw third in a BMW.  Geoff Lees won the F3 race from Dereks Daly and Warwick.

[Dick Dastardly]

I may have missed them but surely Steve Neal and John Fitzpatrick belong on this list, certainly class winners but did they ever acheive an outright win ?

John Fitzpatrick won outright in 1971 in the white Castrol-liveried Broadspeed Escort at Brands, maybe other races as well.

When I mentioned Chris Craft earlier, I'd forgotten about the Capris later on, I was thinking of when he was team mates with John F in 1969/70 in Broadspeed Escorts, albeit in different classes. My mistake..

At some circuits 1968-70, the field was split into 2 groups, the Up to 1000cc and 1001 -1300ccs raced together, hence Gordon Spice winning a race at Crystal Palace in 69[?] in the yellow & back Britax Downton Cooper S....race is available on Youtube

And the Over 1300s classes raced together.

[WonderWoman61]

Chris Craft has 4 outright wins
John Fitzpatrick has 5 outright wins
Bill McGovern and Steve Neal have 1 outright win each though in McGovern's case, not in the years he was Champion.

Been doing the research on
http://touringcarracing.net/
since the series' 60th Anniversary in 2018.

[john winfield]

Chris Craft has 4 outright wins
John Fitzpatrick has 5 outright wins
Bill McGovern and Steve Neal have 1 outright win each though in McGovern's case, not in the years he was Champion.

Been doing the research on
http://touringcarracing.net/
since the series' 60th Anniversary in 2018.

Was Bill McGovern's win in one of the races for the two lowest capacity classes, of the type mentioned above, run at places like Crystal Palace? If so, that's not really an outright win, surely? I expect too that some of John Fitzpatrick's wins will have been in similar split races, in 1300cc Escorts. Or am I wrong?

Edited by john winfield, 20 May 2024 - 16:35.

[WonderWoman61]

Was Bill McGovern's win in one of the races for the two lowest capacity classes, of the type mentioned above, run at places like Crystal Palace? If so, that's not really an outright win, surely? I expect too that some of John Fitzpatrick's wins will have been in similar split races, in 1300cc Escorts. Or am I wrong?

Admittedly yes, most of those were in the separate races for the lower classes but they still count, even if those races had reduced fields.

[Dick Dastardly]

John's win at Brands....at least the one I was thinking of....was against all classes, Brian Muir's Camaro finishing 2nd.

1971 BSCC - round 1 (touringcarracing.net)

Edited by Dick Dastardly, 20 May 2024 - 21:15.

[WonderWoman61]

I can think of a few recent examples who could have won a race with better luck and more money.

Matt Allison
Harry Vaulkhard
Phil Glew
Tom Ferrier if his 2001 Vauxhall seat had worked out.
Shaun Watson-Smith if he'd managed to get a drive after Proton pulled out. He was among the candidates for a 2005 Vauxhall seat.

[Gregor Marshall]

If also includes British Saloon Car Championship and is only outright wins, then I would be biased and I would have to say Gerry Marshall   

During the years that Dad competed in the championship (first racing a Mini in the British Saloon Car Championship in 1965 to his last race in a BMW M3 in the British Touring Car Championship in 1989) he had various class wins over the seasons, but no actual outright wins, being very close ona couple of occassions.

He did win his class championship and finished runner up in the overall championshsip in 1976 and recently his DTV Castrol colour scheme of the 1975, 1976 and 1977 seasons was voted as the 7th best out of the top 10 BTCC liveries in Autopsort.

As Dad was voted one of the top 70 drivers of all time in Autosport and number One British Motorsport hero in Motoring News (beating old friend and foe Andy Rouse into number two) - I think it's a fair and unbiased shout 

[68targa]

I am very surprised that Gerry Marshall never had an outright win in a UK Saloon Car Championship round, I was certain that he must have done. Then of course I had seen him win countless Special Saloon events.  Certainly can be classed as one of the great touring car drivers and if I remember correctly was pretty handy in various historic cars.