85 replies to this topic

[ensign14]

I'm assuming Super Saloons were a bigger thing in the seventies than the BTCC?  I seem to recall lots of pics of the various Berthas in magacomics like Scoop but nothing much of the Longman Minis.

[john winfield]

I'm assuming Super Saloons were a bigger thing in the seventies than the BTCC? I seem to recall lots of pics of the various Berthas in magacomics like Scoop but nothing much of the Longman Minis.

I'm not sure they felt bigger, just exciting and different. My memory is of feeling disappointed at Group 2 coming to an end in 1973, and that in 1974 even the big Group 1 Camaros of Stuart Graham and Richard Lloyd weren't quite as impressive. Presumably a 3 litre limit came in soon after.
I didn't always expect a close battle in super saloons but it didn't matter as the cars were phenomenal. Gregor's dad's Vauxhalls, Mick Hill, the Skodas, Arthur Collier, Tony Sugden, Colin Hawker's DFVW etc.

But the BTCC still felt important, if a little neutered. Just my opinion obviously.

[john aston]

Oh you're spot on there. It is difficult to explain to those who only watch racing on TV that close racing is  not always a prerequisite for a thrilling spectacle** . And if it's a choice between overpowered, barely controllable monsters  bellowing round a track or a grid full of droning spec cars 0.5 seconds apart I'll take the monsters any time. 

 

** See also turbo F1 v1

[MCS]

I really enjoyed the end of the Group 2 era (when I was really getting into the sport as a youngster).  Wonderful memories. The Wiggins Teape Paperchase. Frank Gardner, Brian Muir, Dave Brodie, etc.

 

Not sure who Arthur Collier is though, John. But that could be me. I do remember a Norman Collier, but perhaps the less said the better.

[paulsenna1]

Arthur Collier drove the 5 litre Chevrolet yellow Skoda S110R.

[WonderWoman61]

Gianni Morbidelli and Jean-Christophe Boullion.

Would have been a different story if either of them had got the Renault seat in 1997 instead of Jason Plato.

[WonderWoman61]

Hans-Joachim Stuck, he would have inherited 3 wins in 1983 if the TWR Rovers had been excluded from the season the way Tyrrell were in F1 in 1984.

(Frank Sytner was also disqualified at Silverstone, that also would have benefited Stuck.)

[Mallory Dan]

Can we go back to Supersaloons?  "Touring" cars are so boring.... The Collier Skoda was the 2nd of the line, the John Turner car 

[AndrewAbbott]

Hans-Joachim Stuck, he would have inherited 3 wins in 1983 if the TWR Rovers had been excluded from the season the way Tyrrell were in F1 in 1984.

(Frank Sytner was also disqualified at Silverstone, that also would have benefited Stuck.)

 

The Shawcross report into the 1983 exclusion stated the following:

 

"The ARG Rover Vitesse cars entered by TWR should be excluded from all Trimoco events in 1983 after the 29th May. It is probable, for the reasons we have indicated, that these cars were not properly eligible for the earlier competition, but in view of the position as to protests before that date and of the fact that our Enquiry concentrated very much upon subsequent events, we do not direct the exclusion of the entrants of the TWR/ARG cars from the earlier events in 1983."

 

The cars were thus excluded from the events, not only the championship points table, which redefines the classification order, in which Hans-Joachim Stuck was the first classified, non-excluded driver and belatedly inherited the wins. It is clear that even though the ARG/TWR cars were excluded from the overall championship, they did keep the wins (but not points) from earlier in the season (i.e. before 29th May).

[WonderWoman61]

The Shawcross report into the 1983 exclusion stated the following:
 
"The ARG Rover Vitesse cars entered by TWR should be excluded from all Trimoco events in 1983 after the 29th May. It is probable, for the reasons we have indicated, that these cars were not properly eligible for the earlier competition, but in view of the position as to protests before that date and of the fact that our Enquiry concentrated very much upon subsequent events, we do not direct the exclusion of the entrants of the TWR/ARG cars from the earlier events in 1983."
 
The cars were thus excluded from the events, not only the championship points table, which redefines the classification order, in which Hans-Joachim Stuck was the first classified, non-excluded driver and belatedly inherited the wins. It is clear that even though the ARG/TWR cars were excluded from the overall championship, they did keep the wins (but not points) from earlier in the season (i.e. before 29th May).

I know how it all worked.

[WonderWoman61]

The Shawcross report into the 1983 exclusion stated the following:
 
"The ARG Rover Vitesse cars entered by TWR should be excluded from all Trimoco events in 1983 after the 29th May. It is probable, for the reasons we have indicated, that these cars were not properly eligible for the earlier competition, but in view of the position as to protests before that date and of the fact that our Enquiry concentrated very much upon subsequent events, we do not direct the exclusion of the entrants of the TWR/ARG cars from the earlier events in 1983."
 
The cars were thus excluded from the events, not only the championship points table, which redefines the classification order, in which Hans-Joachim Stuck was the first classified, non-excluded driver and belatedly inherited the wins. It is clear that even though the ARG/TWR cars were excluded from the overall championship, they did keep the wins (but not points) from earlier in the season (i.e. before 29th May).

Jon Dooley would have inherited Alfa Romeo's first outright win at Oulton Park.

[john winfield]

Can we go back to Supersaloons?  "Touring" cars are so boring.... The Collier Skoda was the 2nd of the line, the John Turner car 

 

John Turner, of course, sorry, I forgot him.  And I think Alec Poole raced one of the Skodas didn't he?

Who and what else was there?  John Pope and his Aston. I liked Tony Hazlewood's DAF. Happy days!

 

Going back to the original post,I think the suggestion of Gerry Marshall is the best so far, in the spirit of saloon racing. I don't think Stirling Moss would want to be considered, preferring to forget about the whole, rather sad Audi venture.

[Collombin]

I don't think Stirling Moss would want to be considered, preferring to forget about the whole, rather sad Audi venture.

Yes, it would be different if he had competed in any BSCC races during his main career but I'm not aware of him having done so (though I did have to check the status of that 1960 Silverstone race in the Mk 2 Jag).

[AndrewAbbott]

I know how it all worked.

 

Out of interest, what's your source for your understanding of the way they were excluded. Autosport (which never published revised results so long after the event)? Wikipedia? Frank de Jong's website? MPA (who collated BTCC records some time after the events)? Other?

[WonderWoman61]

Out of interest, what's your source for your understanding of the way they were excluded. Autosport (which never published revised results so long after the event)? Wikipedia? Frank de Jong's website? MPA (who collated BTCC records some time after the events)? Other?

Mainly the late Frank de Jong's website.

I have looked at other sources but can't remember them without researching right now.

[WonderWoman61]

Yes, it would be different if he had competed in any BSCC races during his main career but I'm not aware of him having done so (though I did have to check the status of that 1960 Silverstone race in the Mk 2 Jag).

Stirling Moss did compete in and win British Saloon Car events before the series became a championship.

http://touringcarrac... Car Races.html

http://touringcarrac...rstone Int.html

[Collombin]

Indeed. The second or third 1/43 model I ever purchased was that big Mk VII Jag. But, as you say, if you count those races then you can't say he never won.

Edited by Collombin, 23 May 2024 - 12:48.

[WonderWoman61]

Vic Elford in the Porsche 911.

[WonderWoman61]

Jonathan Palmer and Ray Bellm

[WonderWoman61]

Jan Lammers, he would have won if he'd stayed with Volvo long enough to drive the 850 Saloon.

[68targa]

Arthur Collier drove the 5 litre Chevrolet yellow Skoda S110R.

 

Here he is at Thruxton in 1975 leading Alec Poole in his 2 litre version.    (Sorry to go OT).

 

[Sterzo]

^ Well, I saw those back in the day, but I'm afraid in my mind they didn't challenge the Bugatti T35B for elegance and refinement.

[WonderWoman61]

I like to think Gavin Pyper would become z winner in time if he'd been able to continue with Gary Ayles' team.

[Dick Dastardly]

A name from the past...Brian Robinson....he did BSCC in 1967 [2 races] '68 & '69....but no outright wins

[john winfield]

A name from the past...Brian Robinson....he did BSCC in 1967 [2 races] '68 & '69....but no outright wins

Did Brian race sports Chevrons, or is that another BR?

[small block]

Did Brian race sports Chevrons, or is that another BR?

Yes he did, he also raced a McLaren M19 in Formula 5000.

[WonderWoman61]

Guy Edwards in the Team Kaliber Sierra.

[john winfield]

Jacky Ickx? Racing works Lotus Cortinas in 1966.

[WonderWoman61]

I can think of a couple who probably would have struck lucky if they had been in the top class more often, if at all.

Graham Goode
The late Alan Minshaw

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes he did, he also raced a McLaren M19 in Formula 5000.

Yep the same guy. He was partnered with Tony Dean in the latter's 2-car team for his BSCC outings, driving a Lotus-Cortina then Escort.

I believe he was doing some low key club meetings in an MGB within the past 8-10 years..

[WonderWoman61]

Warwick Banks in 1965. He was the reigning European Champion at the time after all.

[Macca]

Jonathan Palmer and Ray Bellm

Palmer? Ask Nettan Lindgren…


Paul M

[WonderWoman61]

Palmer? Ask Nettan Lindgren…
Paul M

Aside from that....

[WonderWoman61]

Gavin Smith looked like he would strike lucky more than once, when he eventually found his feet at Vauxuall, he probably would have had they still been running the Astra Coupe when he drove for them.

[john aston]

Yep the same guy. He was partnered with Tony Dean in the latter's 2-car team for his BSCC outings, driving a Lotus-Cortina then Escort.

I believe he was doing some low key club meetings in an MGB within the past 8-10 years..

  I  interviewed Brian a couple of years ago about his times at Rufforth .He lives near Croft .  He has raced just about everything , and for many years he raced Porsches with great success. He also raced in Europe, N and S America and South Africa, mainly in 2 litre sports cars . He is a lovely man and a fund of great stories . My first memory of him is , more relevantly to this thread , in a Mk1 Lotus Cortina ,with FVA engine on three wheels at Rufforth  

[WonderWoman61]

I'm not convinced that Mansell is the greatest BTCC driver to not win a race. Firstly, leaving aside the TOCA shoot-out, he only did six races in '98. Of those, in five of those, he was beaten by his team mate. The second Donington race was entertaining, but the Mondeo worked fairly well in the rain - Will Hoy had previously won at Silverstone and had finished third in the first Donington race (where Mansell crashed). 
 
I'm tempted to suggest Johnny Cecotto.

In that case, David Brabham.