185 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Spring is here, the European season is underway, and we have a 2024 Talking Point!!

 

Lando Norris won quite comfortably last time in Miami, albeit having needed a safety car to vault him into the lead. Imola was a similar story, sort of, where Norris appeared to have the edge on Verstappen in the last section of the race despite having two-lap older tyres (I think?). However there was no externality that put him in the lead and nobody is going to pass a driver as good as Max at Imola.

 

Needless to say (although I'm not sure exactly what it says), the other McLaren driver is looking a lot more competitive than the second Red Bull pilot.

 

Is there any difference in the engines these days? The Mercedes power unit doesn't look too hot in the black and teal cars.

 

Are Red Bull still ahead? Are they neck and neck? Or does McLaren have a faster car these days? Please feel free to question as many parts of my OP as you like, or offer highly nuanced arguments about tyres.

[TAFormula1]

I think they are close to equal, I wouldn't put too much thought into Perez vs Piastri, Perez is a joke.

[SilverArrow31]

More data required...

[jonklug]

McLaren are clearly strong and might even have slightly better pace than RedBull right now but I would still give it a few more races to draw a more educated conclusion.

For sure the field is much closer now, Perez even with a clean race wouldn't have been anywhere near the podium.

[F1Frog]

Don’t know but it is such a lovely thing that we can now think about this question.

[CPR]

If you average across both drivers, McLaren are faster. Remove Perez and it feels about equal. But need a few races to be certain.

[1player]

Car wise, the Red Bull is a hundredth faster. Driver wise, McLaren has two fast drivers, Red Bull have to rely on one, but the best driver in the world.

My hope is that McLaren focus on snatching the WCC from Red Bull.

[lewislorenzo]

Still need a few more races

[Mat13]

My hope is that McLaren focus on snatching the WCC from Red Bull.

That would make my YEAR.

[Peter3hg]

Red Bull can be very hard to gauge when they have the best driver in the world paired with a slower, more inconsistent driver who often looks like a journeyman at best.
Piastri is closer to Norris, especially in qualifying, which makes McLaren easier to judge.

[realracer200]

McLaren clearly is the best car at the moment.

[P123]

I think to be confidently faster then they need a solid pole by two or three tenths, because Red Bull are always stronger on race day than in qualifying. I'd say at this stage 0.1s quicker in qual, but still two or three tenths off in ultimate race pace.  The tyre behaviour muddies the waters a lot because it looked very much a standard Max/ RB victory... and then very quickly it wasn't!  

[Mc_Silver]

I think they are more or less equal right now. It's all about circuit characteristics and maximising the package you have. Ferrari is only missing a tenth or two behind. Mercedes seemed to have closed the gap as well. We have such an exciting season ahead of us. That's what Formula 1 fans have been waiting for for a long long time.

[Laster]

Perez doesn't help in working this out. He's always lacked in qualifying usually his race pace is quite strong and can get him back near where he should be, absolutely wasn't the case today though.

I suspect the RBR still edges it on ultimate pace, but it certainly looks more vulnerable to Mclaren now if Mclaren is getting everything hooked up.

[vlado]

I dunno but VER NOR LEC ran a different race to everyone else

[JimmyClark]

I don't think we will be fully sure until Barcelona. 

[Coral]

I think McLaren are getting closer, but Red Bull still have the edge. However Red Bull are having to rely solely on Max, as Perez has shown this season that he is utter pants. Personally I don't think Lando is quite there as a WDC contender, but he could get there. I actually think Piastri could be the one to take a WDC for McLaren, he has shown that he is very, very fast...and he is still inexperienced.

 

It is very pleasing to see Red Bull actually being challenged by McLaren, and it would be great if Ferrari joined the party...maybe next year!

[flyboym3]

Max topped q1, q2 and q3 so the data says no.

[PayasYouRace]

I wouldn’t want to pick one way or the other based on current form. We just saw two of the best drivers in F1 finish within a second of each other in a Grand Prix without any interruptions (didn’t even notice any local yellows).

[Ruudbackus]

I voted don't know. Miami the safety car and damage troubled the picture and in imola redbull never was on top of the stup (even in qualifying i never felt they were on it). I think Monaco could be interesting and the races after that will tell us how it really is. I still feel redbull has the edge if they get the setup right.

[George Costanza]

McLaren is quicker slightly but Max superior to the rest so he will win the championship easily.

[MissingApex]

I think McLaren has the faster car, Red Bull the quicker driver (based on the last two races).

[George Costanza]

I think McLaren has the faster car, Red Bull the quicker driver (based on the last two races).

The season could end up like 1999-2000 IMHO.

[spa2000overtake]

Mclaren definitely have made the biggest gaining of the top three and have managed to even close gap to Red Bull performance wise which is really impressive.

I still think it will depend on the track and circumstances Imola suited Mclaren perfectly, Monaco will be really interesting to look forward after Imola race where Max narrowly won the race.

Ferrari were the biggest disappointment this weekend after practises it look really promising, but in the Red Bull and Mclarens were way ahead in the race.

[Astandahl]

McL was the fastest car with the hard tyres for sure.

 

With the mediums RB was significantly better.

 

What we don't know is if RB was at its best or not. Probably not, so they will keep winning.

[pup]

This was supposed to be a good track for McLaren, so the race may have flattered them a bit. I suspect over the next few races we’ll see that McLaren are still a few tenths off Red Bull on average. I would say though that the latest round of updates put them even with Ferrari, with both McLaren and Ferrari gaining on Red Bull.

[chrcol]

I think redbull overall still have an edge, mclaren with better tyre management, red bull faster in quali and early race.

 

Main thing is mclaren upgrades are working and they seem to be developing faster than red bull, so bodes well.

Edited by chrcol, 19 May 2024 - 16:37.

[SparkPlug86]

Monaco will be interesting because the McLaren doesn't favour low speed generally... although we went okay in Miami. I think RB are ahead by a tenth, with Ferrari another tenth behind McLaren. But's it's going to be track and temps specific going forwards... upgrade war will be interesting for sure this year. Next round of updates for McLaren is likely around Silverstone we think.

[Ben1980]

No. RbR won the race and had pole position. They were faster in both instances that can be defined. It was tight, but they were the quicker car.

[Topsu]

Only thing keeping RB ahead is Max.

[pup]

Silverstone updates will be interesting for sure. McLaren have been steadily out developing the field for a year now, and by a good margin. And so far there’s no indication that their development pace is slowing. I have a feeling that Andrea is going to have a place among the team principal greats.

[cheekybru]

Commentators forget how bad Perez is sometimes

Maybe McLaren are shading it but the RB is still very fast

[UltimateLegacy]

I think Redbull still has the edge in most tracks and the fact that they have the fastest driver in modern F1 history who can extract so much more of the cars pace than most top drivers is a significant advantage when the margins are slim. But if Perez keeps choking and Mclaren continues their upward trajectory with the Silverstone upgrade package, they might just nab the WCC. I think it's time for Redbull to start shopping for a second driver for 2025 as I think Mclaren has the superior development potential and will most likely be on par or exceed RB by slim margins by late 2024. The era of Max winning both the WCC and WDC by his effort alone is over. Perez needs to wake up or start getting used to wearing blue and white.

Edited by UltimateLegacy, 19 May 2024 - 17:05.

[messy]

On some tracks McLaren are at least as quick as Red Bull at the moment and I really hope it lasts because we might actually get a season. And who seriously expected that? I hope this proves true on LOTS of circuits and we’ll only see if that’s the case as the season goes on.

I don’t even mind Max winning it its actually his brilliance that makes the difference. It certainly wasn’t for most of 2023, much as that’s not a criticism of him. I actually think he’ll be loving the competition, thriving from it.

[TheAviator]

Think they are. I dont think Norris is on level of Max, hence looking where Perez is, I would say Mclaren nudges ahead.

Great job by Stella, Zak and entire team at Mclaren btw. Crazy how much deficit they clawed back in such a short time.

Edited by TheAviator, 19 May 2024 - 17:08.

[Stoffel]

I say this as a McLaren fan but I don't rate Lando in the Verstappen/Hamilton/Alonso league so seeing him come so close to Max I would say the McLaren was the faster car today and in Miami. Will be interesting to see how the coming races will unfold.

[jacdaniel]

Listen to Max, he has spent the whole last 2 weekends giving out about the balance of the car. They just can’t dial it in like they did at the start of the season. Pace on the hards is terrible

[Baddoer]

Dunno. Maybe.

[pup]

Listen to Max, he has spent the whole last 2 weekends giving out about the balance of the car. They just can’t dial it in like they did at the start of the season. Pace on the hards is terrible

They didn’t forget how to set up the car though. They’re being pushed and so the car’s limits are revealing themselves.

[Deeq]

McL was the fastest car with the hard tyres for sure.

With the mediums RB was significantly better.

What we don't know is if RB was at its best or not. Probably not, so they will keep winning.

They were very close.. still give RBR tiny edge, i.e were faster were it really counted oppening stint (on mediums).
Track that is nearly impossible to overtake the damage is done, win secured by the time McLarens were superior...

They didn’t forget how to set up the car though. They’re being pushed and so the car’s limits are revealing themselves.

This is correct too, the early season cruises are over.. you will see more pressure induced mistakes on & off track. Just like early 2022 & whole 2021.

Edited by Deeq, 19 May 2024 - 18:39.

[Astandahl]

Listen to Max, he has spent the whole last 2 weekends giving out about the balance of the car. They just can’t dial it in like they did at the start of the season. Pace on the hards is terrible

Terrible = Ferrari by the way

[AlexPrime]

I think RBR is ultimately a faster, but tricker car to setup

[JL14]

Listen to Max, he has spent the whole last 2 weekends giving out about the balance of the car. They just can’t dial it in like they did at the start of the season. Pace on the hards is terrible

 

Funnily enough, right when Newey isn't in the technical meetings on the race weekend anymore 

[Laptom]

Max topped q1, q2 and q3 so the data says no.

Check the data above your post if you know how to read the actual data.

[Laptom]

I dunno but VER NOR LEC ran a different race to everyone else

Unbelievable if you see race to race how small Max keep the variance. This is something you already see since 2018 that he is the most consistent in lap times.

[Laptom]

Funnily enough, right when Newey isn't in the technical meetings on the race weekend anymore

The balance of the car is in the hands of the engineers, the development was in the hands of Newey. Current performance has 0 to do with Newey leaving.

[UltimateLegacy]

Unbelievable if you see race to race how small Max keep the variance. This is something you already see since 2018 that he is the most consistent in lap times.

The new top 3 IMO. Will be interesting to see them race in the next overtakeable race track. I can't wait for Canada.

[Kao18]

Agree with Davide Valsecchi, McLaren were faster this weekend but Max made the difference.

 

I think McLaren have now overtaken RB and Ferrari are not far behind.

[PlatenGlass]

Agree with Davide Valsecchi, McLaren were faster this weekend but Max made the difference.

 

I think McLaren have now overtaken RB and Ferrari are not far behind.

 

It's possible McLaren have been quicker for the last two races, but it might not be a general trend. Other tracks might favour the Red Bull. We will see.

[RPM40]

More data is needed.

Red Bull still seem faster, but they didn't seem to get the car in a sweet zone in practice, but still managed to convert in the race. In the early stint Norris didn't look anywhere close to Verstappen, however Verstappen had late race tyre deg which made it look close.

 

As other have said if you consider McLaren and Red Bull the average of their drivers then you would give McLaren the nod, however Perez is not representative of a top level driver and is clearly the weakest of the four. 

 

I heavily suspect next race Red Bull will be back to being comfortably ahead, although they were already arguably that at Imola.