50 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Ferrari driver Sainz says the FIA should re-visit the idea of deleting lap times for offending drivers.

"There have been very clear cases in street circuits where, between us drivers, we've spotted people on purpose generating red flags," Sainz said.

 

​The idea was briefly brought up in the wake of Perez's 2022 crash, but it is understood the FIA felt it wasn't necessary to take any further measures. However, Thursday's comments suggest it will likely be brought up again in Friday evening's drivers' briefing.

 

 

https://www.autospor...prits/10614464/

[FLB]

IndyCar rules for everybody! 

 

Source: Qualifying Procedures (indycar.com)

 

 

 

Qualifying Interference – If a car causes a red-flag condition in any segment or otherwise interferes with qualifications as determined by INDYCAR, the car’s best two timed laps of the segment will be disallowed and the car shall not be allowed to advance to the next segment. If a car causes two red-flag conditions in one or more segments or otherwise interferes with qualifications as determined by INDYCAR, all segment times shall be voided and the car shall not be permitted to participate in the remainder of qualifying.

Edited by FLB, 23 May 2024 - 20:42.

[Risil]

I feel there may be unintended consequences to this.

[AncientLurker]

Yes please. This rule is long overdue.

[P123]

Not just red flags, it should be those who go off and cause yellows too. 

[SophieB]

Not just red flags, it should be those who go off and cause yellows too. 

Agreed that it’s interesting that Sainz spoke of red flags when some of the most notoriously suspicious examples only needed yellows.

[SenorSjon]

The full yellow + red indy rules please. A local yellow will work as a red flag in the dying minutes of any Q session.

[Clatter]

Has there been a recent event that has brought this back to the drivers focus?

[CharlesWinstone]

Has there been a recent event that has brought this back to the drivers focus?

No but an upcomming event with more than a few suspicious situations over the years.

[AustinF1]

Yes please. This rule is long overdue.

Yep. It's been done and has worked very well for a long, long time all over the racing world except, for some reason, in F1.

 

Time for F1 to wake up.

[AustinF1]

Has there been a recent event that has brought this back to the drivers focus?

They probably read about it here. We were talking about it not long ago, wondering why nobody pushes for it in F1.

 

Edited by AustinF1, 23 May 2024 - 21:37.

[TheAviator]

Perez 2022 Monaco quali crash was definitely suspicious.

[AustinF1]

Perez 2022 Monaco quali crash was definitely suspicious.

So it seems that this has only come up because it's Monaco week, but this should be something that's in place for the whole calendar, not just Monaco.

[TomNokoe]

Just introduce Superpole pleeeeeeeeease

[Autodromo]

So it seems that this has only come up because it's Monaco week, but this should be something that's in place for the whole calendar, not just Monaco.

Perhaps because it is so easy to create a red flag at Monaco and a few other circuits with tight spots (Azerbaijan)?  At least it is easier for someone to cause one on purpose without being overly obvious (think of how hard it would be to create a red flag on purpose at a place like Abu Dhabi without it being very obvious or dangerous to try).  But yes, it should be in place at all circuits.

[MikeTekRacing]

Just introduce Superpole pleeeeeeeeease

You mean drivers running on different track conditions? Sure, that was fun. Not

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 23 May 2024 - 22:00.

[MikeTekRacing]

Perhaps because it is so easy to create a red flag at Monaco and a few other circuits with tight spots (Azerbaijan)? At least it is easier for someone to cause one on purpose without being overly obvious (think of how hard it would be to create a red flag on purpose at a place like Abu Dhabi without it being very obvious or dangerous to try). But yes, it should be in place at all circuits.

It’s rather easy ar most circuits.
You must be joking about Abu Dhabi. Where Latifi crashed there is a perfect spot

As others have said, you don’t need a red - just a good old yellow. Be in front if your rival, get a yellow and that’s it.

[Autodromo]

It’s rather easy ar most circuits.
You must be joking about Abu Dhabi. Where Latifi crashed there is a perfect spot

As others have said, you don’t need a red - just a good old yellow. Be in front if your rival, get a yellow and that’s it.

Why do you think there have been far more red/yellows that are considered suspicious at Monaco than other tracks?  I guess my point is that you can do it pretty easily on that track while barely damaging your car.  And basically anywhere on that track.

[JHSingo]

I have no idea why they didn't implement this rule about 10 years ago, tbh. 

 

It seems completely sensible...actually, that's probably why they don't have it. 

[MikeTekRacing]

Why do you think there have been far more red/yellows that are considered suspicious at Monaco than other tracks? I guess my point is that you can do it pretty easily on that track while barely damaging your car. And basically anywhere on that track.

You are right that it is easier at Monaco, it doesn’t mean it’s too hard at other places. It requires more planning but you can at least do it as easily at most street tracks and rather easy at some others. It could be harder in China, Bahrain, Qatar, Austin, Monza but Canada, Australia, Baku, Singapore, Vegas, Miami, Hungaroring - are mega easy. i’d say Imola is rather easy too, medium would be Spa, Suzuka

[MikeTekRacing]

I have no idea why they didn't implement this rule about 10 years ago, tbh.

It seems completely sensible...actually, that's probably why they don't have it.

I think it can and will have some unintended consequences.
A yellow flag and you lose your best lap? So you are last in that session? Pretty harsh. The whole point of a banker lap is to allow you to go crazy faster at the last one

[Autodromo]

I guess that would lead teams to put in banker laps, then.

[Anderis]

I guess you'll have to "use" your team mates to cause the flag, then.

[AustinF1]

I have no idea why they didn't implement this rule about 10 years ago, tbh. 

 

It seems completely sensible...actually, that's probably why they don't have it. 

I could be wrong, but imho over the years F1 has shown a reticence to implement procedures they didn't think of first.

[F1 Mike]

I think it can and will have some unintended consequences.
A yellow flag and you lose your best lap? So you are last in that session? Pretty harsh. The whole point of a banker lap is to allow you to go crazy faster at the last one

Literally hero to zero stuff?

[Myrvold]

IndyCar rules for everybody! 

 

Source: Qualifying Procedures (indycar.com)

 

I feel like I post this every.single.time this discussion appears here or anywhere else.

 

It's a no-brainer.

[Myrvold]

I think it can and will have some unintended consequences.
A yellow flag and you lose your best lap? So you are last in that session? Pretty harsh. The whole point of a banker lap is to allow you to go crazy faster at the last one

 

It works fine in IndyCar. There is no reason why it shouldn't work in F1.

 

Just like the timing sectors in IndyCar road course qualifying. They can have races with 26-27 cars on tracks that takes less time than Monaco, without as much issues in qual. One of the reasons, they start and finish the time on the last sector. Not start-finish. That way the drivers can head straight to pit instead of doing another lap where they are not pushing.

Again, it makes sense, coupled with someone else coming up with it, and it is a no-go for the FIA.

[AustinF1]

It works fine in IndyCar. There is no reason why it shouldn't work in F1.

 

Just like the timing sectors in IndyCar road course qualifying. They can have races with 26-27 cars on tracks that takes less time than Monaco, without as much issues in qual. One of the reasons, they start and finish the time on the last sector. Not start-finish. That way the drivers can head straight to pit instead of doing another lap where they are not pushing.

Again, it makes sense, coupled with someone else coming up with it, and it is a no-go for the FIA.

While they're at it, they should follow IndyCar's lead on moving the timing line back to before pit entry. That way, they could start their hot lap just prior to pit entry, then end it there and immediately hit the pits. No in-lap. Voila. 33% less traffic in qualifying.

Edited by AustinF1, 23 May 2024 - 22:44.

[ARTGP]

Ironically I would find changing the rules to be a case of trying to be too perfect and over-sanitizing the sport. The suspicion about crashes and the lottery nature when laps are ruined is a part of the fabric of the sport. It is something that frustrates, but what is the sport without some irritable and potentially suspicious tactics to talk about? It’s hardly a rampant issue.

[JvsKVB77]

Why driver with technical problem should be penalised for bringing red flag? Just give drivers a tyres, which can do more than one fast lap and compensate time. 

[AncientLurker]

Literally hero to zero stuff?

Exactly.
This is what we’re here for. That one perfect flier on the edge of crashing. All or nothing.

Really, qualifying is the purest form of F1 we have left right now. Let’s make it as exciting as possible.

[Muppetmad]

Yes, I'd like to see this – but I'd like to see it be implemented properly, rather than rushed with dreadful, non-binding wording after the driver's briefing.

[SenorSjon]

Perez 2022 Monaco quali crash was definitely suspicious.

 

We also had quite a few flag affected qualy's last year (iirc Baku, Miami and Zandvoort at least).

 

While they're at it, they should follow IndyCar's lead on moving the timing line back to before pit entry. That way, they could start their hot lap just prior to pit entry, then end it there and immediately hit the pits. No in-lap. Voila. 33% less traffic in qualifying.

 

Even less, since the whole main straight is cut with the pitlane. So only cars on hot laps there also means no slipstreaming misery on Monza.

 

Why driver with technical problem should be penalised for bringing red flag? Just give drivers a tyres, which can do more than one fast lap and compensate time. 

 

Why should the rest be penalized because you have a problem?

[Yamamoto]

 

Why should the rest be penalized because you have a problem?

 

If you have a technical problem that causes a yellow/red flag then the rest are "penalised"/affected anyway, are they not?

[Rediscoveryx]

I think that this is a no-brainer actually. 

 

Although a one-lap qualifying system used in Monaco would probably be even better.

[CSF]

IndyCar rules for everybody! 

 

Source: Qualifying Procedures (indycar.com)

 

The alternate line would be lovely too. 

[Ruusperi]

Yet they always decide go out at the same time when the risk of yellow or red flag is the highest.

Even if the qualifying was 5 hours long, they probably waited in the pits 4h 50 minutes and then complain when someone causes a yellow or red flag. Well duh, it's your own fault. Should have set a lap earlier.

[MattK9]

Yes

 And yellows

The various Schumacher/Rosberg/Leclerc issues around quali at Monaco would be completely solved by this rule.

[PayasYouRace]

The alternate timing line would be great at Monaco. It could be positioned between the Swimming Pool and Rascasse, in front of the big grandstand.

[Rediscoveryx]

The alternate timing line would be great at Monaco. It could be positioned between the Swimming Pool and Rascasse, in front of the big grandstand.

 

Yes, and it would be a game changer at other venues as well.

 

They could even shorten the qualifying sessions by a couple of minutes per segment if this was implemented as so much time is spent on in- and outlaps with the current setup.

[absinthedude]

Perhaps in cases where a car does not have any technical problems. The problem would be that drivers do genuinely make mistakes and go off, which should not be penalised by the FIA. We are all pretty sure that in the past, drivers have deliberately caused red/yellow flags at Monaco in particular....and I think rather than penalising all such flags, the FIA should have the balls to decide, "We believe you did that on purpose. Your best lap (or laps) is erased". 

[Gravelngrass]

In other words, most agree to not allow drivers to push as much as possible. I wonder why people complain that F1 is bad...

[Clatter]

Perhaps in cases where a car does not have any technical problems. The problem would be that drivers do genuinely make mistakes and go off, which should not be penalised by the FIA. We are all pretty sure that in the past, drivers have deliberately caused red/yellow flags at Monaco in particular....and I think rather than penalising all such flags, the FIA should have the balls to decide, "We believe you did that on purpose. Your best lap (or laps) is erased". 

 

Don't the stewards do that already?

[SenorSjon]

They only did that once with Schumacher. But Rosberg, Perez (intentional), Leclerc (usual) also had instances they could take full risk without consequence.

 

 

In other words, most agree to not allow drivers to push as much as possible. I wonder why people complain that F1 is bad...

 

Thus gaming the system should be fine? When Leclerc crashed in his 2nd run in Monaco, he could go all out, while the rest had to finish the lap to improve. Karma bit him when his drive shaft failed (under current rules, they could have swapped it) before the race.

[Rediscoveryx]

Apparently not where it's been suspected in the past. 

 

But isn't that because they have applied an "innocent until proven guilty" approach?

 

The beauty of the new suggestion is that it lays clear from the beginning what the stakes are, and there is no subjectivity involved. Well, apart from the fact that it in some cases could be subjective whether a yellow or a red flag is most appropriate...

[Yamamoto]

There should be scope in the rules for cheating in Formula One. It allows us to see more clearly who these characters are, and perceive them accurately as heroes* and villains**. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Hamilton, Russell, Norris.

**The non-British.

[TomNokoe]

You mean drivers running on different track conditions? Sure, that was fun. Not

 

All formats have pros and cons. The current format is awful for TV when you have 10 or more drivers setting laps at the same time, and we can only watch one. Not to mention it is routinely plagued by traffic and tyre preparation problems, and yellow/red flag disruption.

 

Here's a clip of Schumacher vs Hakkinen, Imola 2000 qualifying. I know it isn't single lap or super pole, but it is still representative of what it would be like. We get to see both laps in full, which creates a far better visual storyline. Schumacher snatches pole, then Hakkinen wrestles it back. This is exactly what sports broadcasting should be. When two (or more) drivers set laps at the same time, this feeling of a battle is lost. Hamilton/Verstappen Saudi 2021 is one of the more recent examples, but this was blind luck in how the run plans fell.

 

A theoretical super-pole session would only be the top 8 or top 10. 15-20mins maximum. The window for weather disruption is smaller. There's also the inane track evolution argument, which is always wildly exaggerated. For example, we've just had F2 qualifying in two groups. This isn't even single-lap qualifying so the supposed track evolution should have been far more pronounced, and guess what? The polesitter ran in group 1. And there are countless more examples of this throughout F1. The lap time doesn't come from track evolution, it comes from outlap preparation and driver skill in executing the lap under pressure.

 

I don't know why the qualifying format is where so many fans draw the line in terms of assumed fairness and sporting equality, and yet a cheap pit stop in the middle of a grand prix thanks to a luckily timed V/SC is waved away as "that's racing!".

 

I'm happy to accept a neglible difference in track conditions for a format thats better for TV and a greater sporting challenge.

Edited by TomNokoe, 24 May 2024 - 14:56.

[Gravelngrass]

 

 

Thus gaming the system should be fine? When Leclerc crashed in his 2nd run in Monaco, he could go all out, while the rest had to finish the lap to improve. Karma bit him when his drive shaft failed (under current rules, they could have swapped it) before the race.

Nope, those trying to cheat should be penalized, but it should definitely not be a penalty system for just-in-cases. It would insult fans' intelligence but also make me doubt of that of stewards. There are enough tools these days to be able to differentiate.   

[IrvTheSwerve]

Yeah, there should be a penalty for it. It's becoming a joke now, particularly Monaco. It's always a driver that is on for pole, too. Schumacher, Rosberg, Perez (I'm sure there are more examples). Hearing them explain it away as an error is cringing. The Schumacher 'opening up the steering lock' thing was embarrassing. 

[MikeTekRacing]

All formats have pros and cons. The current format is awful for TV when you have 10 or more drivers setting laps at the same time, and we can only watch one. Not to mention it is routinely plagued by traffic and tyre preparation problems, and yellow/red flag disruption.

Here's a clip of Schumacher vs Hakkinen, Imola 2000 qualifying. I know it isn't single lap or super pole, but it is still representative of what it would be like. We get to see both laps in full, which creates a far better visual storyline. Schumacher snatches pole, then Hakkinen wrestles it back. This is exactly what sports broadcasting should be. When two (or more) drivers set laps at the same time, this feeling of a battle is lost. Hamilton/Verstappen Saudi 2021 is one of the more recent examples, but this was blind luck in how the run plans fell.

A theoretical super-pole session would only be the top 8 or top 10. 15-20mins maximum. The window for weather disruption is smaller. There's also the inane track evolution argument, which is always wildly exaggerated. For example, we've just had F2 qualifying in two groups. This isn't even single-lap qualifying so the supposed track evolution should have been far more pronounced, and guess what? The polesitter ran in group 1. And there are countless more examples of this throughout F1. The lap time doesn't come from track evolution, it comes from outlap preparation and driver skill in executing the lap under pressure.

I don't know why the qualifying format is where so many fans draw the line in terms of assumed fairness and sporting equality, and yet a cheap pit stop in the middle of a grand prix thanks to a luckily timed V/SC is waved away as "that's racing!".

I'm happy to accept a neglible difference in track conditions for a format thats better for TV and a greater sporting challenge.

Negligible difference is fine. Sometimes there is massive difference and that is simply not fair
I find it very strange people say Liberty is Netflixing f1 yet the main complain about current qualy is that it is not TV friendly! It is racing friendly and probably the best format we have ever had with lots of action